The horizon is not so far as we can see, but as far as we can imagine

Open Thread

Use to discuss topics unrelated to recent posts.

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Week-end Wrap – Political Economy – May 03, 2026

27 Comments

  1. mistah charley, ph.d.

    1/I had a surprising discussion about current events via phone text this week, with my cousin – an intelligent, prosperous and educated man, Midwestern white guy, about seventy. I am willing to exchange phone texts with family members, albeit reluctantly. We were talking about the war on Iran, which worries him – I mentioned Zionism – he said he knew nothing about it, and then got a brief summary from a chatbot and remarked on the brutality of the IDF. At first I was astonished, but on contemplation I realize that this ignorance of Zionism is the Third Big Lie of the two biggest falsehoods Americans are fed in school and by the media, identified by Howard Zinn: 1/America always acts altruistically overseas 2/there is no class struggle 3/[crickets about our special relationship with the settler state in West Asia].

    2/A recent discussion I saw on YouTube on how the effects of the constriction of the Strait of Hormuz are only slowly beginning to be understood mentioned “normalcy bias”: yesterday, things were more or less ok; today, things are more or less ok; tomorrow things will be more or less ok – right? In general, this is true until it isn’t.

  2. mago

    Kind of surprised to see mistah charley, ph.d pop up here. Also surprised that there’s seemingly widespread ignorance about Zionism, but there’s a lot i know nothing about.

  3. bruce wilder

    Sitting in a bar at Happy Hour last night in a working-class town in Michigan, all eyes turned to the tv as the daily rise in gas prices was reported.

    “Normal” is evaporating.

  4. Mark Level

    Since we’ve been discussing China recently, I just wanted to share a recent “Russ on the Road” podcast, he is in Yangshou, very rainy day– asks if it is the most beautiful place in China. (I know Russ from the Due Dissidence podcast, he’s had replacement hosts last 5-6 month, difficulty with the Internet Firewall; a lot of pop culture references, it’s odd what the Chinese enjoy from US culture.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ILM20W1Dj_A

  5. spud

    i always thought that ayn rand was actually a soviet mole, although she was so stupid, she probably thought she was going to the west, because she was so intelligent, and the soviets feared her.

    the soviets may have thought, let her go. the rich in the west, will promote her idiotology which will lead to their collapse, and of course the rich did. and we are collapsing.

    the difference here is that when bill clinton sent the equivalent of the chicago boys to russia, it took a short time for them to be rejected, and driven out of russia.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-ndBir01Oyk

    The Libertarian Nightmare: Is Milei Starving Argentina?

    Apr 30, 2026
    Argentina’s libertarian experiment is fast becoming a nightmare, with popular tv shows pitching donkey meat as a cheaper alternative to beef. David talks about the latest dangerous free market failure.

  6. bruce wilder

    It is curious to me that the present critique of the evolution of the Israel project should fixate on an attack on Zionism as “settler colonialism”. Invoking “apartheid” I take to be strategic, as combining a moral cause with the precedent of political accomplishment.

    I am no expert on the social and economic history, but for me the seamy corruption of Netanyahoo fairly shouts out of the teevee. He embodies relentless authoritarianism and malignant narcissism that makes any kind of accommodation impossible. He’s an oligarch’s oligarch, a by-product of a polity bent out of shape by extreme economic inequality.

  7. Mark Level

    More good news– Mercouris of the Duran reports today that the US is too bogged down with the Zionist Entity in the “Mideast”, has informed both EUrope and Ukraine especially that NO more weapons are coming its way from Uncle Schmuley, the cupboard is bare!!

    The NAFO losers will be enraged, including the doddering idiot “King” Charles of the degraded UK. On a side note, his wife Camilla who he swore would never be called “Queen” before assuming power, was called Queen on her recent US visit, these turds are liars, the Royals as much as the political class. He cried to Trump about the US’s “moral duty” to help the NeoN@zis and the looting li’l Green Goblin, this obviously fell on dear ears.

    No more weapons for now, BUT US will still be doing the targeting of Russia along with UK as UKraine collapses. There’s apparently a later bit of the share where Alexander talks about a new drive on Odessa that’s started, step 1 to get to Kiev.

    Oh, and US is pulling 5K troops out of Germany, out of 35K, not that big a deal.

    In bigger news, the New Republic reported that Netanyahu, Trump and Hegseth have all been ICC or ICJ indicted. This is a little shaky, I cannot find the piece which I read earlier this morn. Tried searching, some dispute this will happen . . . Now, it’s unlikely this will go anywhere quickly BUT there is a drip, drip, drip, contra DJT now that he is starting to starve the world of oil, helium, fertilizer and many other needed resources. The Judicial branch has also called him out for 31 violations of Court Orders in recent days as he is a lawless, vicious SOB. I think he is a fat orange Wile E. Coyote who has shambled out (don’t think he can run) 6 or 7 steps past the cliff edge.

    Oh an Merz is competing with Starmer for irrelevance, and whose political career will get the axe first.

    Viz the Banderist “Big Israel” wannabe in collapse, the Fat Lady has to sing eventually, I’d bet money it will be before 2026 ends.

    Link is here for those interested, https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uWJYIebZhOI

  8. spud

    socialism,

    https://www.youtube.com/post/UgkxTw2zu8xXVXIC-CnjoeTqkaQ697ykS5FT

    MILITARY TUBE TODAY
    MILITARY TUBE TODAY
    1 day ago
    BREAKING🚨
    The Tehran Municipality announced that all those who lost their homes due to US and Israeli attacks will be accommodated in hotels free of charge, with all costs fully covered by the state.

    According to most estimates, there are approximately 7,000 displaced people currently awaiting the reconstruction of their homes, which will also be fully funded by the state.

    free market capitalism

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tCFZiOEsSBY&t=402s

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RKwh-ATy2Ls

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BIv9B_imLOk

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OXmY_GKYRBo

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pyRRIoSx-A4

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-yEpMjlQLcE

  9. different clue

    Here is a Belle of the Ranch video called: “Let’s talk about Trump’s next war in a place he said he brought peace….”
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4lNeWats6Eo

    In briefest, the TrumpAdmin will work with the UAE to create and fund a paramilitary force to ” protect the mines and other investments” in Eastern Congo. It should reach its full size by 2028.

    I just thought up another nickname for President Low-IQ Stupid Person. Trojan Horse’s Ass. He is the Republicans’ Trojan Horse’s Ass President, filled with Project 2025 and lots of other nice things.

    I hope the Democrats win the House next election and I hope that Jeffries loses his seat. I hope that the Mean Spiteful Revenge Wing ( if there is one) of the coming House Democrat Majority ( if there is one) can elect a Mean Spiteful Revenge Speaker and get to work impeaching President Sharty McDiaperstain.

    I hope they whack that Trojan Horse’s Ass like a Trumpiñata till it splits open and we can see what comes out.

  10. This is the transcript of Aaron Siri’s court deposition of Kathryn Edwards who is considered one of the top if not the top vaccine expert in the world.

    Note: in the quotes there will periodically be dots and numbers, these are left there so you can use the control find feature to find the exact quote.
    (Part 1)

    Q- Are you aware that in the early 1980s 13· ·pharmaceutical companies were being forced to exit 14· ·the vaccine market due to high liability they 15· ·faced from their vaccine products?
    A- Yes

    Q- it says that you’ve served as an 16· ·advisor for BioNet and Merck; correct?
    A- Okay.· Yes
    (Edwards earlier lied about her conflicts of interest so Siri provided Plaintiff’s exhibit no.1 to prove she was lying)

    Q- So you were a consultant for Merck.
    A- Yes.

    A- You said you had one meal, but when ·8· ·you scroll down, we can see there’s far more than ·9· ·one meal; correct?
    (Edwards was lying about her conflicts of interest so Siri provided Plaintiff’s 2 exhibit no 2 to prove it)

    Q- You were also a consultant for GSK
    A- Perhpas
    (There’s near a hundred of pages of her lying about being paid by drug corporation after drug corporation then Siri providing the documentation of them.)

    Q- did the clinical23· ·trials relied upon to license the vaccines that 24· ·Yates received, (designed to rule out that the vaccine causes autism?)
    A- No

    Q- This is an article in the 20· ·Frontiers in Immunology; correct?
    A- Yes
    Q- And you’re an author on this article?
    A- That’s my name.

    Q- (pertussis vaccines) cannot ·4· ·avoid infection and transmission.· Do you agree ·5· ·with that statement?
    A- · Yes
    (Before this Edwards was lying and only answered truthfully when Siri brought up the study she authored)

    Q- ·acellular pertussis vaccines do not prevent ·9· ·colonization.· Do you agree with that statement?
    A- They do not totally prevent colonization. 11· ·They have a small role and that’s been shown in 12· ·baboon studies.
    (Siri then brings up the Baboon studies which concludes “pertussis vaccines, do not reduce the circulation of Bordetella pertussis and do not exert any herd immunity effect”. She lied again).

    Q- Can DTaP vaccine cause seizures?
    A- It can

    Q- Can DTaP cause nonstop ·3· ·crying for three hours or more?
    A- Yes, it can.· It’s called HHE.

    Q- Are you aware that the CDC has found that 12· ·DTaP can cause long-term seizures,
    A- No. … not (in) a healthy patient.
    Q- the CDC’s conclusion that ·2· ·DTaP could cause long-term seizures was not ·3· ·qualified in the manner you just stated

    Q- Can DTaP cause coma?
    A- No, sir.
    Q- CDC has concluded there is a causal relationship 12· ·between DTaP and coma

    Q- Can DTaP cause lowered consciousness?
    A- yes

    Q- Can DTaP cause permanent brain damage?
    A- no 24· ·one believes that. (As Siri documents the CDC literally states that DTap can cause permanent brain damage)

    Q- Can MMR cause encephalitis?
    A- Yes

    Q- Can MMR cause chronic arthritis?
    A- It can be associated with short-term 13· ·arthritis, but generally not felt to be chronic.
    Q- Are you aware that the Institute of 15· ·Medicine has found that chronic arthritis is (a side effect)

    (Would you) change your conclusion regarding whether MMR (caused chronic arthritis?)
    A- Probably not.

    Q- Can MMR cause thrombocytopenia?
    A- Yes, definitely.

    Q- Can MMR cause death?
    A- MMR can cause death

    Q- do you believe the issue of whether vaccines 22· ·cause autism have been thoroughly researched and 23· ·rejected?
    A- Yes, sir, I do.
    (Plaintiff’s 20 is the IOM report paid for by the CDC to review the existing scientific literature)
    Q- Did they find any evidence whatsoever to 16· ·support that DTaP does not cause autism?
    A- there was one study that was an 20· ·epidemiologic study by the Geiers.
    their summary was the epidemiologic evidence is 23· ·insufficient or absent to assess
    Q- Now, the — one 13· ·study they did find, Geier and Geier, it did find 14· ·actually an association between autism and DTaP 15· ·vaccine; correct?
    A- Yes
    Q- there’s no scientific evidence to support 11· ·that it doesn’t cause autism
    A- That’s correct.

    Q- So Dr. Edwards, is ·3· ·there a study that supports that DTaP vaccine does ·4· ·not cause autism?
    A- there is not a study that refutes that

    Q- Are·7· ·you aware of any study that supports that DTaP ·8· ·does not cause autism?
    A- No

    Q- this study found that boys ·4· ·vaccinated as neonates had three-fold greater odds ·5· ·for autism diagnosis compared to boys never ·6· ·vaccinated or vaccinated after the first month
    A- I haven’t reviewed the study
    Q- you’re aware AHRQ issued a review in 2014 ·1· ·entitled Safety of Vaccines Used For Routine ·2· ·Immunization in the United States?
    A- I reviewed that
    (This report she reviewed contains this study finding Hep b vaccine causes autism)

    Q- many vaccines 12· ·contain aluminum adjuvant; correct?
    A- Yes

    Q- what’s the purpose of including 17· ·aluminum adjuvants
    A- it enhances the immune 21· ·response

    Q- (Are you aware there are numerous) ·studies starting in 1997 at the CDC going all the ·2· ·way up to the present that have injected various ·3· ·animals with aluminum adjuvant and then sacrificed ·4· ·the animals to find where the aluminum adjuvant ·5· ·traveled in the body?
    A- Yes

    Q- you said you have seen ·2· ·the studies where they injected animals with ·3· ·aluminum adjuvant, sacrificed them, and have found ·4· ·universally aluminum adjuvant in the brain of ·5· ·those animals?
    A- I have seen those papers

    Q- if the aluminum adjuvant is bound 21· ·to antigen, were to travel to and remain in the 22· ·brain, it could cause sustained immune activation 23· ·in the brain; correct?
    A- I would agree

    (Exhibits 28-42 are some of the studies showing alumimum in vaccines travel and stay in the brain and cause inflammation, cell death, immune dysfunction, and damage to the brain. Likewise, studies show massive amounts of alum in the brains of children with autism. In 2017 these were sent to the FDA.)

    Q- do you know of any specific study 21· ·involving injection of aluminum into humans or 22· ·animals, all right, and what — that showed 23· ·aluminum adjuvants are safe?
    A- Yeah, it really is such a ridiculous

    Q- this was the response 19· ·from the Department of Health and Human Services.
    (HHS, CDC, NIH, and FDA couldn’t find a single study showing aluminum was safe)
    Q- all looked for a study of 23· ·whether or not alum — injecting aluminum adjuvant 24· ·were safe, do you think they would be able to find (such a study?)
    A- I don’t know.

  11. Here is a link to the video and a text transcript of the Aaron Siri’s court deposition of Vaccine expert Kathryn Edwards

    I forgot to post them in my last post.

    https://thehighwire.com/ark-videos/the-deposition-of-the-godmother-of-vaccines-dr-kathryn-edwards/

    https://icandecide.org/wp-content/uploads/2023/07/Kathryn-EdwardsPDF_full_.pdf

  12. ProNewerDeal

    Ian/everybody, I would love your take on my following comment.

    Is there some type of “unwritten rule” for the Power Elite 50+Millionaires and CXO Biz Execs & Top Fed Gov officials, that “NO major money may be contributed to an existing or new chartity nonprofit that actually will help real Americans while harming an existing for-profit oligopolist MegaCorp”.

    Off my head, a few that I can think of

    Existing nonprofit activities that need more funding

    1 Open Educational Resources (OER) – fund openstax dot org free college textbook site, align it with College Level Examination Program (CLEP) to allow more autodidacts to pursue either inexpensive college credits towards their BA degree or lifelong learning

    2 existing FOSS software projects that obviously shown utitlity to people but could use more funding. Some examples – LibreOffice (MS Office competitor. Fund it to have internet “cloud” Google Docs-like competitor), Python (computer programming language, Jupyter Notebook (data analysis notebook).

    NEW nonprofit/projects
    3 Create a Linux-based PC nonprofit or at least Germany-style employees get half the seats on board private corp, competitor to Dell to make laptops/desktops, designed for easy user maintenance that at least matches the (low bar) of Windows & Apple computers. The computers should have a design goal of using the 80/20 rule to package the a Level1 set of applications like LibreOffice that account for common tasks, and a Level2 set of apps to cover the remaining 80pct of common user tasks that can be quickly installed. Design the computer for long life & repairability (opposite of planned obsolescence). Allow technicians to have a adequate and reasonable cost certification credential to be a certified PC Maintenance Technician. Create at least 1 physical store in at least all US metro areas of 1M population, for sales/maintenance, & perhaps also training/education courses.

    4 Same as #3, but for cars. Emphasis on design for reliable car, with a long lifespan, easy to repair. Decent miles per gallon should be a goal. The purpose of the cars is reliable transporation (as opposed to “looking fly”/Veblen conspicuous consumption), and as such small & medium sized cars would be designed. Any large car should be designed for actual work purposes, like a truck for construction workers. The goal of a reliable repairable car for transportation should dictate how much of the car is designed with mechnaical systems vs electronics-computer systems, as oppose to the seeming industry trend to maximize the electronics-computer system content.

    5 An alternative nonprofit for delivery/Gig work including taxis & deliveries, eg Uber, Lyft, Amazon Flex, Instacart, etc. The alogorithms that rate the contractor/workers should be transparent & fair. The workers should have the option to exclude to be offered any offer below a user-specified threshhold, up to at a minimum the IRS mileage rate (so currently $1.45/mile since IRS is at $0.725/mile mileage rate deduction).

    6 A retailer-owned credit card nonprofit that prices the CC fees at the minimum needed to run the nonprofit, not the current Visa extortionist/oligopolist 3%? rate.

    These are off my head, but I am surely not considering many others.

    Do any 1 of these successfully, and any Murican oligarch will get more love from Muricans than any of their supposed charity work they brag about.

    But perhaps if any of these were actually done, the US D3ep State would unal1ve or otherwise prevent it from occurring.

  13. different clue

    Here is a photo of Hillary Clinton on the campaign trail in 2016, inside of a working class home. Getting a tour, I suppose, and bending the casual elbow. Behold the look of horror on her face.
    “Hillary Clinton visiting a working class home during her 2016 presidential campaign”
    https://www.reddit.com/r/HistoricalCapsule/comments/1t1zvzc/hillary_clinton_visiting_a_working_class_home/

    Its just a picture, but from the picture I don’t see anything wrong with that home. It has some nice pictures on the walls. There looks to be another picture on the couch waiting for a place to go up in. It looks a lot bigger than where I live. So why is she horrified ( if I judge correctly the look in her eyes)?

  14. EGrise

    Hey Ian, in the previous thread you mentioned that you’ve written articles on guaranteed annual income and how to avoid the problem of oligarchs raising prices to absorb the income. Can you link to one? My search engine skills fail me.

  15. Ian Welsh

    E Grise.

    I sympathize. I often can’t find my own posts even with a search engine and AI, just been too many of them.

    However, in this case, here you go: https://www.ianwelsh.net/the-problem-with-basic-income/

  16. Mark Level

    Thank you to Diff Clue, brilliant!! Yes, that place she’s in is to her a grubby “hovel.” She can’t conceal the look of disgust and contempt.

    Nausea and disgust are very hard to hide for most normal people. Both are triggered often by unconscious levels of consciousness. You’d think that a competent politician could do better, but the 2016 race showed how competent Hills was. Bill was a master, but he could never rub that slickness and charm off onto the likes of her.

  17. different clue

    Alas! The ” curse of the disappearing Diff Clue offered-link” has struck again. When I went back to look at that picture of Clinton just now, I found it gone. And in its place was . . .

    “Back

    Go to HistoricalCapsule
    r/HistoricalCapsule

    6h ago
    SystematicApproach

    [ Removed by moderator ]
    Sorry, this post has been removed by the moderators of r/HistoricalCapsule.”

    I wonder if the moderators were Clintonites.

  18. mago

    Eyeless in Gaze blind to suffering
    starvation and worse
    stick bamboo splinters under fingernails
    iron rods up anuses and laugh and pant about it
    go home and fuck your wife and brag about it
    post pics on your social feed and pretend like you’re a hero and not some dumb indoctrinated fool who thinks he’s cool while deep down inside you know you’re just a tool for assholes even worse than you
    somewhere the sun shines on killing fields while stench fills the air and somewhere flowers bloom impartially like lotus blossoms from the mud
    sail on carry on a reckoning is on the way
    in the meantime in between time, ain’t we got fun
    looking at you Carbonundrum or carbonara or whatever, whomever, I forget the spelling
    Cheers everyone!

  19. EGrise

    Thanks Ian!

  20. Mark Level

    mago, I wonder why you wonder. The censors were certainly Clintonian, probably wear kneepads.

    Hard to scrub the entire Net, perhaps someone can find it again. It was boffo. Btw, most people aren’t old enough as I am to recall when “Spy” magazine in the 90s, beyond trolling the short-fingered Vulgarian DJT did a cover of Hillary as a Dominatrix with a whip, all in black. And she was young and somewhat attractive then, now she’s just a Madelyn Allbright clone.

  21. Curt Kastens

    I am really glad that an open thread was started yesterday as this morning I watched one of the best podcasts that I have watched in a long time. I actually watched the whole hour hour+ of the podcast.

    The podcast was done by Neutrality Studies. Some regular readers here will already be famiilar with the you tube site Neutrality studies, The subject of sthe link is about group think. The link is below.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fJBrhzjJETQ

  22. ventzu

    A bit long, but interesting wide-ranging conversation on the “Psychology of Supremacy”.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mnd8sEWEUsg

  23. StewartM

    Spud

    The Libertarian Nightmare: Is Milei Starving Argentina?

    You must remember that these are a class of people who, despite the fact that they (generally) have never produced an actual product or service in their lives, envision that they are the “true creators” of mankind, aka Rand, while the people who actually DO create value (the workforce) are just “the herd” and “useless eaters”.

    By that thinking, why not starve the ‘useless eaters’? I’ve heard this kind of talk by Rand devotees before. Hell, it’s the whole premise of Atlas Shrugged .

  24. spud

    i do not think america can be reformed. but if you try, it must be on the local level first, then go after this unconstitutional so called law enforcement and the supreme court.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SRzS61buXkQ

    The Supreme Court is Corrupt. This is What We Can Do About It.

  25. Mark Level

    For the most part, I’ve never been a big fan of “The Independent”, the typical Glib ShitLib Slop; however they have a great expose out this morning about Hegseth spewing his usual white nationalist, Christo-fascist hate spew before the House of “Representatives” (sic), utterly deranged drunken loser, high on toxic masculinity, compensating for something. (A closeted ghey like Ms. Lindsay Graham?):

    https://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/americas/pete-hegseth-senate-trump-iran-us-war-b2968581.html

    I don’t get into the hyperbolic rages denouncing this shit like Diff Clue does. When you rage like that you lose the thread of rational thinking, imho. This shit is as old as the human race, these pigs win sometimes, sometimes they get their karmic justice like Mussolini strung up upside-down from a Meathook.

    I have one more share this nice, sunny morning, but a trigger-warning here. 1st Post response to Bernhardt on MoA, about the Iran war & international child-rape class. Much of the info. seems accurate, particularly the individuals profiled with pictures, many from hereditary ruling-class families going back centuries. But since the thesis is that there’s a nearly all-powerful Khazar-Catholic Church Pedo and murder ring, there is definitely some over-the-top Anti-Semitism (okay, anti-Khazar and Catholicism, let’s be honest, very few Ashkenazi Jews are genuinely Semitic though there is a small percentage.)

    I’d rate this about 70% true, seems well-researched but bias will cause exaggeration, like a certain Russophobe who comments here at times, people who have racial/caste “enemies” (imaginary, rarely real, generational bigotry and hate) imho.

    Link to the main site here https://www.moonofalabama.org/2026/05/iran-open-thread-2026-091.html#comments

    If you have a strong constitution or an interest, click on the “stateofthenation” link, strong stuff for good and ill.

    George Galloway’s MOATs doing a strong program as usual, the insightful Garland Nixon a guest. George reports Starmer has now bought IDF soldiers with guns into Britain to oversee the goyim, prevent “anti-Semitism”, I would assume by acting like ICE did in Minneapolis. Also they will ban all pro-Palestine demonstrations, except “once a year”, beat and jail anyone who thinks Palestinians are human.

    Nixon notes the Dimmie party will change nothing if they take power in 6 months. I’m stronly wondering if Trump just won’t cancel any elections, and declare a Trump Royal Dynasty as part of a 1,000 year White-Supremacist Reich, seems more likely every day.

    His popularity is now 60% negative, and fewer than 40% in the Cult. US Airlines going bust, Spirit down, others going to the government begging bowls in hand. Bank Crisis coming in US, Trump may try an actual Boots on the Ground Invasion, which will fail badly, not enough men, barely enough ships and planes. Oh yeah, Trump put up something even more blasphemous and insane than the “Jaybus Healer” post that offended so many, him on a Cross with a Crown of thorns!! Talk about false crybullying bullshit, fake martyrdom as he and his family (as Biden did) profiteer off wars, corruption, right out in the open.

    We all have Obama to thank for the 2nd Trump term, AND the looming closer everyday destruction of the US economy, hopefully eventually the government too.

  26. spud

    StewartM:

    i love this one,

    “There are two novels that can change a bookish fourteen-year old’s life: The Lord of the Rings and Atlas Shrugged. One is a childish fantasy that often engenders a lifelong obsession with its unbelievable heroes, leading to an emotionally stunted, socially crippled adulthood, unable to deal with the real world. The other, of course, involves orcs.”

  27. mago

    And some say the commentariat here are pessimistic and unrealistic.
    Ha ha. To quote CSN&Y, nobody’s right if everybody’s wrong.
    And if the reference is lost, maybe you don’t belong
    Not that it’s up to me to say . . .

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