It’s time to start a movement for new Nuremberg trials. After WWII many Nazis were tried for genocide and various war crimes, and they were executed.
I remember a long time ago my friend Stirling Newberry told me that western elites had only one moral rule, “Don’t be Nazis.” Anything short of being a Nazi was OK: mass murder that didn’t quite reach genocide, mass impoverishment, police states that didn’t quite reach “we are the Gestapo” levels, etc…
This struck me as not much of a red line, you can do a lot of evil without being as bad as the Nazis, after all.
But they’ve crossed even this red line. They’re Nazis. Trump, Trudeau, Biden, Harris, almost every leader and politician in Europe, outside of Spain and Ireland, certainly virtually every German and British politician, has aided and abetted genocide. We’re not just talking looking the other way, they’ve locked up those opposed to genocide and they’ve sent weapons and in many cases (Britain) they’ve actively defended Israel from those trying to stop the genocide militarily, like Yemen and Hezbollah.
Nor are we just talking politicians. Journalists were executed at Nuremberg, and most of the journalists in the West have covered for genocide now. The New York Times, the BBC, the Washington Post, the Atlantic, the Guardian, the Telegram, every major TV news show, etc, etc… They knew genocide was happening, they lied about it, they did everything they could to make sure it could continue.
And, of course, almost every Israeli politician and almost all members of America’s congress, many members of Britain’s and Canada’s House of Commons, most Germany politicians, most EU officials, and so on.
All of these people need to hang from the neck till dead. All of them. If we don’t have “supports genocide” as a red line, we have no red lines at all.
This isn’t politically possible now. They’re in power. But they won’t be in power forever. Never forget. Never forgive. And ensure justice.
Fair trials and if they aided genocide, hang them from the neck till dead. There is no statute of limitations on genocide.
And if you’re completely selfish, understand this. They think they can even commit genocide and get away with it. This time it was a bunch of brown people in another country, but having crossed that line, the next line is “what if we mass murder white people in the first world? Could be we get away with it? They let us make them poor and homeless, is killing them that big a step? They’re just useless eaters, anyway.”
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DMC
A lot of us were thinking “woodchippers” but hanging does have the virtue of not being messy.
Jan Wiklund
This amounts to proposing another genocide. How many people do you want to kill, Ian?
For my part, I am perfectly satisfied if they are removed from power.
Ian Welsh
Just the ones who aided genocide, Jan. You’re the sort of person who doesn’t believe in serious punishment for mass murder. I get it, you have no ethics worth speaking of, and are actually OK with genocide, using the accusation of it as a way to ensure it continues.
I notice, also, the effective admission that a LOT of people actively aided genocide. But since there are so many, they should be allowed to carry on. “If enough people commit genocide, a critical mass is reached where there are too many to punish”. Hell of an argument.
Dermot O Connor
100% agree. It should be back-dated to include Iraq/Syria also. Blair & Bush need to be brought to Justice along with their entire cabal.
I think you’re being too kind to Irish pols. Shannon airport is still being used by the US military – airforce, etc., it’s a major hub. They should be expelled if the Irish govt. was serious, and not to mention the major tech companies who should also be held to account, that are based here.
without a Reckoning, the next swing of the pendulum (a la ‘Canticle of Liebowitz’) will take us to oblivion.
Flaser
@Jan Wilund
A just trial is supposed to assess liability and culpability of the accused.
If the people listed above, after a thorough trial with good defense, are deemed both they deserve to hang, saying otherwise is immoral.
If full culpability is not asserted then a death sentence would not be handed down, but lesser sentences should. This is a basic tenet of how a just criminal justice system is supposed to work.
TM
Yes, history shows so many instances of genocidaires being ‘removed from power’ and gently going off into the sunset.
Daniil Adamov
The trouble with “not being Nazis”, apart from what you point out, is that there is no real consensus on what Nazis were. You may have a very clear idea of what they very obviously were, but that’s beside the point – what I mean is that Western elites, and Westerners generally, don’t seem to agree on what is and isn’t Nazi and therefore unacceptable behaviour. Maybe the AFD is Nazi, or maybe the anti-AFD parties are, for example. (Or perhaps they’re all Nazis because they’re Germans, and then non-Germans have nothing to worry about.) It’s an eminently manipulable concept, which is probably why it’s such a convenient rule to live by. Christopher Hitchens swore by it, IIRC, which is as fine an indictment as any.
Like & Subscribe
Jan, what is your opinion on Luigi? Should he be released and merely removed from power? At least in his case, it could be construed as an act of self-defense, meaning an argument could be made he was defending the unwashed collectively against the genocidal insurance companies and their shareholders.
mago
Who’s going to set up the prosecution process? The judiciary is already compromised and institutions are being dismantled while the machinery of oppression is being cemented in place as the so called great unwashed are increasingly marginalized.
The billionaire class is doing what it can to suppress rebellion as evidenced by the Trumpian movement to militarize cities. Germany, France and Great Britain are squashing protest and dissent.
Those who aren’t struggling to stay afloat are toadying up to the monied interests. Still, maybe, just maybe, a critical mass of the disaffected will organize and rise up. The oligarchs are obviously fearful of that possibility.
On a cosmic level, the genociders and their enablers will surely pay a price in one form or another, but we’re unlikely to see them dangling from the end of a rope anytime soon.
I’m afraid this is going to get far worse before it gets any better. Not to be a Dougie downer or anything. . . Just sticking a finger in the wind.
Mark Warburton
“For my part, I am perfectly satisfied if they are removed from power”. then what, the perps get to live quietly off their Billions in Argentina?
Oakchair
but having crossed that line, the next line is “what if we mass murder white people in the first world? Could we get away with it?
——–
Those questions have already been answered. Most people would cheer the killing on and they’d get away with it.
Why do anything else? It would be an admission that all that dystopian fiction is really a dramatized cartoon documentary. Much better to trust those in authority, refuse to think, and turn the TV on for another round. Admitting those conspiracy theorists people spent years hurling insults at were right? That’s not going to happen because the rulers conditioned the populace from birth to base their sense of intelligence and self worth on believing.
canopy
Four things –
First –
Kaye Boyle, a WWII war correspondent, wrote of a war crimes trial in Frankfurt. It was important because that was the trial that finally convinced the German public of the guilt of the Nazis. Nuremberg did not do it because it was a trail by and of elites who were remote from the daily experience of average citizens. By the end of the war the German public had been so overwhelmed by propaganda that they believed only what they could verify personally, as they were finally able to do in Frankfurt.
If we manage Nuremberg trials for all of the bloody fascists ruling us now, there will probably be a sizeable part of the US population that will not believe it. I don’t know how to solve that problem, but it will be no surprise if it needs to be dealt with somehow.
Second –
In addition to the large number of complicit people noted in the post, there will also be pretty much the entire population of Israel. The only solution I can think of to deal with that many hard core Zionists would be to take a page from Mao and re-educate them by force.
Third –
Even after all of the above measures are taken, there will still be a big global diaspora of Nazis and Zionists who escape, hide and plan to somehow stage a comeback. For that problem the best solution I can imagine would be to, again, take a page from China. Word is that Xi Jinping has figured out how to root out corruption throughout one’s nation. Not sure how he does it, but sounds like he has figured out how to get the job done, to the point that I heard he was sharing the tool kit for it with Vietnam. Also have the impression that Russia is pretty good at such stuff and, given recent events, it sounds like Iran is learning these lessons as well. Going forward it should be incumbent on all nations to learn these lessons and cultivate these skills.
Unwelcome as the idea is certain to be for many of our contemporaries, the version of liberalism that abuses tolerance to the point of being soft on war crimes will need to be rooted out and banished. Mistakes are certain to be made if this is done at scale, but half-measures can not be tolerated in a job as important as ridding ourselves of fascism.
Fourth –
Education and media of the future must be reformed and deployed so that generations that come after us will learn the right lessons and be fortified against corrupting influences.
The only pernicious influence I see no way to rid ourselves of will be the Abrahamic faith traditions, but at the rate we are going climate change will wipe out most of us before we can address any of these issues anyway.
anon
..the next line is “what if we mass murder white people in the first world? Could be we get away with it?”
Isn’t that what happened with the Covid pandemic? Not a single politician or public health official was held accountable. Millions of people died and society has moved on as if it never happened. It shows that genocide and mass murder can be committed successfully and with the help of the powerful and the media elite, can be quickly buried in several news cycles.
edwin
Thought of this:
Early on, Ta-Nehisi Coates observed, “We are at a moment right now where people are asking themselves why can’t the Democratic Party defend this assault on democracy . . . and I would submit to you that if you can’t draw the line at genocide, you probably can’t draw the line at democracy.”
https://www.juancole.com/2025/02/democrats-genocide-democracy.html
Feral Finster
Of course. I have said the same for years, just as I have said that the ruling class, in and out of government, are but high-functioning (int hat they can fake empathy when called upon) sociopaths. Trump, detestable as he is (and yes, he belongs on a gibbet with the others) is not even the worst of the bunch.
The question remains – How to accomplish this? Which mouse or mice will put the bell on the cat?
NR
Ian, you’re wrong that the next line will be mass murdering white people in the first world. The next line will be mass murdering black and brown people in the first world. White people may come after that, but they will absolutely start with non-whites. It’s much easier to do since there are less of them, they have less political and economic power, and there will be at least some white people that support it. Probably not a majority, but the ones that do will be the most violent sort, and they will be organized, and there’s a good chance they’ll have the might of the state behind them.
Ian Welsh
Yes, NR, you’re right.
Still, smart white people would stop it here, not wait till it’s them.
NR
Yes they would. But unfortunately, there will be some that go along with the killing, and others who won’t think it’s their problem until the blood reaches their doorstep. We’ve seen it play out this way time and time again throughout history.
Curt Kastens
The only way that had a chance was back in 2004 or 2005 some field grade officers in the US military intellegence field would have agreed to work together to bring about the downfall of the leadership of the US MIC. This clique of officers would have had to have worked with the Russians or the Chinese to be able to properly carry out the following steps.
If that would have happened step 1 would have been to get people that they approved of in positions in the military personnel administration.
Step 2 would have been to get the correct people in to positions in the communcations units of the military.
Step 3 would have been to get the correct people in to leadership poistions in all of the Military Police Units.
Step 4 would have been to inflitrate supporters in to the FBI, CIA, and Secret Service
Step 5 would have been to infiltrate every state police force and every police force of every city over 50,000 people.
Step 6 would have been to put in supporters of the program in charge of every combat brigade and battalion unit located inside of the US.
Step 7 would have been to turn all of the drug gangs in America in to revolutionary shook troops.
Step 8 would have been to cause some sort of incident that would keep people in their homes and off the streets for at least 3 days.
Step 9 would be to assassinate every important leader that could or would challenge the new leaderhip and sieze controll of the major TV networks
Step 10 would be to start reeducating the US population, using trials as important tool in that reguard.
Sadly not even the first prerequisit was ever met. And even if it had been with each step as the organization of true Americans grew the chances that it would have been discovered would grow also. And if this organization of true Americans was discovered before it completed step 4 it would have been very easy to dismantle.
Even if step 4 had happened it would have been possible to dismantle the organization. It wouid just have taken longer.
That Americans did not even reach the prerequisite stage shows that Americans of the 21st Century have less integrity than the Germans in the Wehrmacht in the 1940s.
It is sad to see how things worked out up until now. Yet the collapse of industrial civilization due to climate change and resource deplition will be a great equalizer.
Mark Level
100% in agreement, the moral argument, and the moral equivalence with Nazism, is crystal clear. Der Sturmer’s fiercest exponent of Genocide was executed with them, the Media class in the West should not be exempt. Shills on CNN/MSDNC/Fox for genocide, let’s just list a couple, Dana Bash, Wolf Blitzer (what a great name, even though he’s Jewish it sounds like a Freikorps member), and many others. The detestable Bari Weiss used Twitter to get the humanist academic Rafeet Al Areer (& a considerable # of his family members) liquidated. They can’t wipe out the Internet and Collective Memory at this point, any more than the Trump team can pretend the Epstein “fans of the playground” were just sleaze linked to the Clintons and the Dem Party. Just in the last week, Mayo Pete Buttigieg strongly defended “Israel”, their “right to exist” as Apartheid exemplars, some are STILL today supporting it. Pete polls literally Zero Percent with Black Dem voters, he’s dead in the water politically, but some cannot abandon their white supremacist idol.
In my opinion, the key question is how long will it take for the grassroots hatred of the Mass Murdering political class to sweep them out of power? It will happen faster in some countries than others. History will never forgive them, nor can we. Thanks to Ian for calling out J.W., I will never read his posts with the same empathy I felt in the past.
John Kerry stated the obvious when Secty of State– “Israel can survive as a Jewish State or as a Democratic state, but only one, not both.” (First part direct quote, 2nd part paraphrase.) Of course he still supported the Zionist Entity 100% functionally, but he would at least have these words if brought to trial.
Stewart Seldowitz had worked for the Obama admin supposedly supporting Palestinians, and was a vicious Zionist who threatened apolitical food vendors in NYC that he could make a phone call and have their parents in Egypt or elsewhere tortured or even killed. He got off with a fake non-apology and some community service. I guess that pleases Jan at least. He’s also linked to the “Zaka” Cult (as Max Blumenthal covered) that made up the “beheaded babies” and Hamas cooked Jewish babies “in ovens” hoax. Alareer was targeted by Weiss for joking about the latter.
Anon’s point about Covid is solid, they will gladly kill poor people regardless of color. Otherwise, of course, PoC are always targeted first.
I’d prefer to see them hanged, however I respect Canopy’s point that the Maoist Class Enemy punishment could be extended to the less egregious murderers. E.g., 2 or 3 decades of hard labor in agriculture or service would eventually get their minds right.
A tangential point– when the Zionist Entity goes down in flames, where do the Ashkenazi pretend-Jews go, back to Ukraine, Russia, Latvia, Lithuania, etc? I think if they don’t pay the full price, Germany should take them, since it loves them so much and has promoted their genocide with such fervor. Their English sounds just like the German English in the old movies too, coincidence? Mostly, perhaps not entirely. The Palestinians never deserved land theft, genocide and subhuman status to pay for the crimes of the Reich (nor the “British Mandate” in Palestine), obviously.
Is L&S just trolling and distracting, or sincere? Yes the “Health Care” execs are committing an institutional genocide, effectively against the poor. Hard to tell. L&S sometimes deplores the insult comedy President but seems to go to the same place in his posts. My sister-in-law’s half-brother died in his early 40s working at a Wal-Mart with no health care, so I know at least one victim directly. (Probably many others, incidentally.)
Glad to see the Greeks who recently would not let a Zionist tour boat dock in their harbor. We can start with shunning and move up to bigger things. It will take time, but the Writing is on The Wall, nobody with any integrity or conscience can deny the Evil at this point.
Oh, and on a more trivial level, I hope all the idealistic young College students who were canceled at their institutions for opposing genocide peacefully can sue the pants off those smarmy College Officials and the schools themselves.
As the saying goes, “The mill of justice grinds slowly, but it grinds exceedingly fine.” So the question is regarding the adverbs, how slowly will it grind, and then how finely.
GM
To be noted too is that they also went to war with Russia, with the quite openly stated purpose of doing an Operation Barbarossa 2.0, and getting it right this time (precisely those words have come out of Germany recently).
Generalplan Ost 2.0 has not been openly formulated, but neither was the original one, it was uncovered in its entirety only later.
And if anything, the dehumanizing rhetoric has been ratcheted up relative to what the Germans produced in WWII about the Russia. They didn’t call them Orks back then, just subhumans. They do both now, quite officially.
Curt Kastens
It goes without saying that completing tasks 1 through 10 had very little chance of success. To say that the chance was .01% could easily be seen as an exaguration. But that chance no matter how small was bigger than ending the riegn of terrorism through standard electoral means.
And to call it a plan for an illegal unconstitional coup would be lie. Because it was actually a plan for an extra constitutional common law counter coup.
John
Ian –
100%. A note of caution – the time isn’t far off when TPTB start noticing who is saying what online, rewards those that have pleased them, and hunting down those that haven’t. The precedents are being set up now. Not a suggestion that you (anybody on this forum) stop, but watch your back
Curt Kastens
It would not be a genocide even if 10s of millions were fed in to the wood chipper. Because those chosen for the punishment would be chosen for the choices that they made not the genes ((or the jeans- economic symbolism)) that they were born with.
But feeding them to the wood chipper would be unneccesarily mercifull.
The proper punishment would be to roast them like pigs except that water would be thrown over there heads often enough to keep them alive longer.
But of course I state that just for Fartogo entertainment purposes because those in the critical mass will never be held accountable by anyone who agrees with me that the wars against Palestine, Russia, Iran, Lybia, Iraq, Afghanistan, Venezuela and Cuba were all criminal acts of barbaric terrorism. And the covert operations against the people of western europe and Japan, and South Korea, and even the real people of United States were policies of vicious treachory. The real people of the United States are not the counterfit Americans, those that support the what the US has been doing.
Counterfit in this case is a euphamism for confederate.
AJ
This is very good: https://www.bannedinyourstate.com/p/how-to-fight-a-military-occupation-d9e
Thermobarbaric
Good thread and probably it would be most poetic if the most prominent enablers of this genocide (Bibi Yahoo I’m looking at you) were hanged according to the kind of method preferred by their Third Reich soul mates i.e using meat hooks and thin hemp to extend the agony of their demise (anecdotally there are rumours that Adolph had some of the most despised July 20th coup plotters strangled with piano wire).
Nat Wilson Turner
Hear! Hear!
I expect the trials will be held in China.
shagggz
Mark Level: “where do the Ashkenazi pretend-Jews go” – a reverse right of return, to those countries that enabled this monstrous crime against humanity, seems in order. It’s the least we could do.
As for y’all indulging fantasies of inflicting torture just because these people are monsters, do be mindful of the abyss staring back.
Ian Welsh
Indeed. No torture, no deliberate infliction of pain. There are crimes which are so heinous that someone forfeits their right to life, because they are that much of a threat, but no matter what the crime, cruelty in response is not the point.
The issue that people miss is that people like Biden, Trump and Netanyahu are so much worse than serial killers that there is no comparison. An average serial killer murders about 6 people. They aren’t even a pimple of the monstrous genocidal asses of American presidents and leaders of Israel.
Curt Kastens
It seems to me that the extended deliberate infliction of pain serves as a possible deterent to future behavior. A quick execution is certianly no deterent.
As a punsihment that is much more mercifuil than life in prison and has less deterent value.
Why should those who hold power get to use torture to deter rebellion but rebels not be allowed to use torture to deter corruption?
Of course one could say that those who hold illegitimate power should not use torture. But they will.
Furthermore the illegitimate rulers show by their own decisions of supporting wars of aggression and torture to maintain power and to obtain intormation that they think torture is an acceptable tactic to employ to achieve these goals. Therefore they can not claim that have any expectation of avoiding torture.
For me torture is acceptable to use agaoinst those who are already responsible for torture themselves. It purpsoe would be to set an example for potential future major criiminals. Furthermore if I lived in a society in which torture was used to surpress dissent I would be to fightened to dissent, unless I had access to a cyanid tablet. Torture like lesser forms of violence to achieve ones goals is a genie that escaped the bottle probably even before the first murder was committed. It has be a tool that is availble to everyone not just those hoping to enrich themselves.
GrimJim
Basically the entire leadership cadre of the West (including Israel) and their major financiers/enablers need to be dropped down a massive oubliette together, naked, with knives, and the whole thing covered over in thick concrete.
Their major well-wishers need to be sent to Coventry, permanently, a la Heinlein, via Escape from New York — call them the Anglostans, one massive open-air prison for men, the other for women. Say, Nebraska, split in two, each surrounded by a parallel pair of 100′ walls with an “instant kill zone” a mile wide in-between. Once they go in, they do not come out. Regular supply drops to help keep them fed and clothed, but they’d mostly have to take care of themselves with farms and ranches. No advanced technology allowed, maintained through judicious use of drones.
Their children, if young enough, get sent to family or adopted elsewhere; if old enough and fed enough mother’s milk to develop the Old Hate, they are kept in juvie centers with the option to re-education — if they do not acclimate by 18, to Coventry they go.
We then go all Sherman on anything stinking of Dominionism, White Nationalism, the Lost Cause, and the whole Confederate myth. Tear down every Confederate monument. Burn all their damned apologetics, except that which is kept in museums and for educational purposes. Crush any residual belief in it through continued threat of Coventry.
Same should go for all the Randian Libertarians, especially the Tech Bros. Give them their Galt’s Gulch — say, Death Valley. Burn out all reference to Objectivism, everywhere, including all of Rand’s books.
That should make for a good start.
canopy
Avoiding torture is, like forgiveness, something one does to preserve one’s own humanity. The consequences for those who are forgiven, or not tortured, has never been the point.
Also, centuries before our misleaders reached their current crescendo of bloodthirsty madness, there stretches back a long history of butchery and carnage of native populations which was just as extreme and revolting as what we see in Gaza. The entire genre of Westerns in US movies is one long, ugly psy-op, just as one example among so many others.
Feral Finster
“I remember a long time ago my friend Stirling Newberry told me that western elites had only one moral rule, ‘Don’t be Nazis.'”
Thinking it over, beginning around mid-May, 1945, western elites were quite happy to utilize the services of unrepentant Nazis. You may recall the ratlines were already working, seemingly right under the nose of the OSS, smuggling various rats and war criminals to South American destinations, shiny new identities in hand. Hell, for decades it was an open secret, well known to both the Americans and French (France was the situs of his worst crimes) that Klaus Barbie was running counterintelligence for Bolivia. But no matter – he was a reliable anticommunist, and he was safe for as long as the Soviet Union was a boogeyman.
For that matter, there was a cottage industry in Germany of ex-Wehrmacht generals writing self-serving memoirs, lovingly curated and promoted by NATO, in which Hitler was blamed for everything from tasteless humor to crab lice, the point of which was to rehabilitate the Nazi armies in the East.
And I haven’t even gotten started on the roles of Nazis in the German armed forces, or the number of SS who served in the French Foreign Legion, or the collaborators who went on to glittering careers in France. And those are just a few examples to come to mind.
I think it was some “Ian Welsh” character who pointed out that the establishment has less fear of the right than of the left. Mediating on this, I think he’s right, and for one simple reason – the right is not on principle opposed to private property or to accumulation of wealth or capital. In fact, the deal proposed by the right is “follow rules, obey our orders, and you oligarchs can keep your stuff!”
canopy
I was thinking something along those same lines about the Democrats. Liberals I know personally or follow online are outdoing themselves hating on the MAGA electorate and blaming them for Trump. Meanwhile, the truth IMO is that if it were not for the Democrats we would have enjoyed a couple of Bernie Sanders administrations and Trump would still be a marginal clown show. When they rant against MAGA I am tempted to remind them that it could be worse because at least they saved us from Bernie. I won’t actually say that to any of them however, because I don’t want to be the target of the vitriol they would certainly unleash on me for saying it, but I know I’m right.