Scott Warren is charged with helping immigrants who were crossing the Mexican border.
“He gave them food, he gave them water, he gave them a place to stay…He did a bad thing.” — Anna Wright,
@USAO_AZ in her closing argument that#ScottWarren should be convicted.
I wonder if the prosecutor thinks she is a Christian?
35 For I was hungry and you gave me something to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me something to drink, I was a stranger and you invited me in, 36 I needed clothes and you clothed me, I was sick and you looked after me, I was in prison and you came to visit me.’
37 “Then the righteous will answer him, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry and feed you, or thirsty and give you something to drink? 38 When did we see you a stranger and invite you in, or needing clothes and clothe you? 39 When did we see you sick or in prison and go to visit you?’
40 “The King will reply, ‘Truly I tell you, whatever you did for one of the least of these brothers and sisters of mine, you did for me.’
I would also note that Sodom and Gomorrah were destroyed, essentially, for treating visitors badly.
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Feel free to use this thread as an open thread, in addition to discussing the above Christian Nation act.
Dan Lynch
The immigrants are invading our country. Not militarily, but not with legitimate claims to political asylum, either. Most of them are economic immigrants.
If instead of a border line, suppose this were a picket line, and scabs were trying to cross the picket line. Would it be Christian-like to help the scabs cross the picket line? Or would it be Christian-like to respect the picket line?
Or suppose you were a Native American, and you saw members of a rival tribe enter your tribe’s territory, and pick your berries, and shoot your deer, and catch your fish. What is the right thing to do? Should you welcome the invaders with open arms, or do you defend the territory that your tribe depends on for its very existence?
Now if you are a lawyer, or a teacher, or some other professional worker, maybe you are not worried about Latin American immigrants taking your job. But if you are a blue collar worker, then you may legitimately view the immigrants as an economic threat (as an engineer, I view H1B immigrants as a threat). Or if you are a nature lover, concerned about the growing population’s impact on the environment, you may legitimately view the immigrants as a threat to your quality of life.
I have no desire to be mean to immigrants, but I have no desire to open America’s borders, either. A wall actually makes a lot of sense to me. Instead of rounding up immigrants and putting them in concentration camps, it would be more humane to prevent them from entering in the first place. And of course the bigger issue is that the U.S. government should stop destabilizing Latin American countries.
Herman
@Dan Lynch,
I agree that immigration is a problem and I don’t support open borders but at the same time I don’t have a problem with people like Scott Warren who help immigrants out of humanitarian concerns. I also think that Ian is right to call out American Christians who seem to forget what Jesus taught about treating strangers.
I believe that most of the immigration we receive is legal family reunification or “chain migration” depending on the wording you want to use. So illegal immigrants are not necessarily the biggest problem but limiting legal immigration is a touchy subject because of the racial connotations it has developed.
Also, there is a lot of political gamesmanship that prevents any reform from happening. Republicans see the growing diversity of the population as a political threat while Democrats see it as an asset since non-whites usually lean Democratic.
From an economic and environmental standpoint it would probably be better for American workers to limit immigration but as is true for so much of politics, the immigration issue is not just fought within the realm of economics and the environment but also within the realm of tribe, identity and partisanship.
Hugh
Economic migrants and refugees are legally very different groups with very different rights. Refugees are covered by treaty. If the US wants to reduce the number of Central American refugees, it should be helping to address the violence and instability in those countries. Economic migrants should be treated humanely. You don’t need a wall or concentration camps to reduce their numbers, just levy prohibitive fines against the businesses and people who employ them. I agree H-1b visas are about driving down wages in certain professional fields as both legal and illegal immigrants are used to do so in agricultural work, construction, meatpacking, restauranting and hoteling.
Hugh
I should note that 27 million workers or 17% of the US workforce is foreign-born. Again this is both legal and illegal immigrants. These kinds of numbers have a tremendous impact on native born workers. Add in offshoring, anti-unionism and Fed policy and this impact is increased exponentially further.
Re chained migration, there should be limits. I live in an area with many legal/illegal migrants. It is not unusual for an individual or family (this alone can number 6-8) to arrive and then parents, brothers and sisters, and their families to follow. So things add up and you can get 20-25 immigrants off of one initial application.
Ten Bears
Weather, “climate”, the atmosphere, the thin layer of potentially toxic gases we live in that envelopes the only ball of rock we know of we can live on, does not recognize the boundaries of “nation/states”. Or imaginary dog has the bigger dick.
You can’t stop the migration. You will be assimilated. Ask the Neanderthal.
“America founded as a christian nation” is a goddamned lie.
S Brennan
Ian, should we Christians open the doors in so that all who want entry may come in?
Okay, fine, let’s do it.
In so doing, in a decade or so, the USA’s population will be over a billion, 1.5-2.0 billion…
Okay, fine, let’s do it anyway.
Long after the nation is a $#!t-hole the flow will continue but, at some point, the flow will stop, because, conditions here will resemble the worst the world has to offer…billions will live in misery.
But okay, fine, let’s do it.
Of course, in the end, nobody will be saved, the world will be torn to shreds by the demands of such a population with nuclear weapons. World War that ends in holocaust, it’s our Christian duty no?
But what the hell, let’s do it.
Being a Christian is not a suicide pact, at least not since the Cathars were genocidally extinguished. Scott Warren could be a good Christian AND be roundly applauded for his efforts if he were to go to poor countries and aid the poor, or simply send his money to one of the thousands doing God’s work here on earth. My cousin does just this kind of missionary work.
But Scott Warren disagrees with US law, he wants to break the law to make a political point. Fair enough, he will probably be treated well.
When asked whether Christ thought Jews should obey Roman law he said; “render onto Caesar that which is Caesars and onto God that which is God’s”. Giving away your fellow countryman’s bread does signal virtue but, is it an act of charity or…an act of theft?
Hugh
Just to flesh out the Caesar reference, from the New American Standard Bible:
“15 Then the Pharisees went and plotted together how they might trap Him in what He said. 16 And they sent their disciples to Him, along with the Herodians, saying, “Teacher, we know that You are truthful and teach the way of God in truth, and defer to no one; for You are not partial to any. 17 Tell us then, what do You think? Is it lawful to give a poll-tax to Caesar, or not?” 18 But Jesus perceived their malice, and said, “Why are you testing Me, you hypocrites? 19 Show Me the coin used for the poll-tax.” And they brought Him a denarius. 20 And He said to them, “Whose likeness and inscription is this?” 21 They said to Him, “Caesar’s.” Then He said to them, “Then render to Caesar the things that are Caesar’s; and to God the things that are God’s.” 22 And hearing this, they were amazed, and leaving Him, they went away.”
The Sadducees then quiz him on the resurrection and then it’s back to the Pharisees:
“34 But when the Pharisees heard that Jesus had silenced the Sadducees, they gathered themselves together. 35 One of them, a lawyer, asked Him a question, testing Him, 36 ‘Teacher, which is the great commandment in the Law?’ 37 And He said to him, ‘You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, and with all your soul, and with all your mind.’ 38 This is the great and foremost commandment. 39 The second is like it, ‘You shall love your neighbor as yourself.’ 40 On these two commandments depend the whole Law and the Prophets.'”
Looked at this way, what Jesus was leaving to Caesar wasn’t a lot.
S Brennan
Hugh, I know your hero Ezra had a bad reputation for stealing quotes without attribution…I know, he took as much as I would give, but, you my friend, will always be a minor player, no matter how hard you suck-up…times have changed, the internet has been conquered, your type is no longer needed, you’re too late.
So how about it Hugh, 250 words of quote and no link? A bit tawdry to not to add the link eh? Or was the link embarrassing?
Ivory Bill Woodpecker
OK, what would happen if you geniuses actually succeeded in closing the southern border, and deporting the “illegals” who live here already?
Who will do the hard, dirty, bloody work of picking the crops and slaughtering the meat beasts?
How many native-born citizens of the USA will do that work, for the piss-poor pay, in the degrading and dangerous working conditions that Food Inc. has bribed enough politicians to get away with allowing?
If you succeed, better gorge yourselves and build up body fat quickly, for the coming food shortages.
Or maybe there won’t be food shortages, because Food Inc. will accept the new reality, and raise the pay of its workers, and reduce the danger and degradation to them?
That will cost Food Inc. a lot more money.
Do you geniuses think Food Inc. will, ahem, eat those costs?
Nope; they’ll pass them on to the consumers, including you geniuses.
And you same geniuses who bitch and moan the loudest about “those horrible Mexicans” will bitch and moan the loudest about the increased food costs and/or food shortages.
So I’d better stock up on Super Glue, because I will need it after I laugh my unruly ASS off.
Herman
@Ivory Bill Woodpecker,
Isn’t the argument about passing on costs to consumers a typical conservative talking point when applied to raising the minimum wage, unionization and other policies meant to help workers? Why is it that we tolerate overpriced professionals like doctors, dentists and lawyers but scream about costs when meatpackers, landscapers and food service workers might get a raise through the same instrument that professionals use to maintain their incomes, that is, restricting the supply of labor? I wonder how upper-middle class liberals would respond to flooding their own professions with cheap foreign labor. I bet there are millions of Asian, African and Latin American professionals would would love to work in America.
I am sympathetic to the humanitarian arguments in favor of more immigration but most of the economic arguments strike me as more favorable to the wealthy than to working-class people. For example, cheap labor helps to maintain the lifestyle of affluent Americans in our modern Downton Abbey economy. Just one example of this is how professional couples utilize nannies to raise their kids while they pursue their high-powered careers.The dual income lifestyle would be impossible for many affluent Americans without this pool of cheap domestic labor. Then you have the business owners who obviously benefit from lower labor costs. But is this good for workers, especially those at the bottom of the labor market with the fewest skills?
Our modern world is a far cry from the more egalitarian economy of the post-war period when plenty of dirty jobs like meatpacking paid well and were unionized. The increase in immigration since 1965 is not the only reason for the demise of the old egalitarian America but it is certainly part of the story. Personally speaking, I would much prefer to live in a more egalitarian country even if it meant paying more for goods and services.
Ivory Bill Woodpecker
@Herman: At least you’ve actually thought about the side effects, which is more than I can say for many of your colleagues.
someofparts
Tamping down the consequences of foolish behavior doesn’t help much if we don’t change the behavior that caused the problem in the first place. So start by fixing the root cause of the problem and proceed from there. What could we do to make refugees want to stay home in their own countries?
1) Bring home the military. Dismantle our far-flung bases and repurpose the military as a domestic conservation corp to rebuild our ratty infrastructure.
2) Arrest all the media moguls, investment bankers, private equity guys, and the entire Senate and export them to Central America to do whatever dangerous, menial work those communities need.
3) Decentralize control of the media and back it up hard laws and regulations. Make punishments for monopolizing and manipulating our public information systems very, very punitive.
4) For good measure, make safe, effective, free birth control available to all the women we can reach. Any woman who has reasonable hope for a decent, modestly comfortable life for herself and the children she does have will not willingly have children she cannot hope to feed or protect.
Hugh
S Brennan, there is thing called google. You should try using it. This is the most recent citation. From May 16, 2019
“In 2018, there were 28.2 million foreign-born persons in the U.S. labor force, comprising 17.4 percent of the total.”
https://www.bls.gov/news.release/forbrn.nr0.htm/Labor-Force-Characteristics-of-Foreign-Born-Workers-Summary
The Biblical reference is from the pertinent passages in Matthew 22 from which your “render unto Caesar” reference arises.
ven
Wow. You steal someone else’s country, commit genocide on them; entrap, transport and enslave another people, and still treat them as second class citizens; arbitrarily occupy and invade other countries, and commit mass murder on them; and systematically undermine south & Central America . . . And then wonder why people are fleeing the south . . . And sanctimoniously talk about protecting an egalitarian society in the US (implicitly for whites of course). The lack of insight and self-awareness is stunning.
Dale
Amen Ven!
someofparts
Amen indeed. Meanwhile, don’t forget the manipulation and policing of the domestic population that makes it all possible. The example Ian based his post on is an extreme case. In less extreme circumstances, how long do you think someone gets to keep a job if they share the understanding you expressed so well? Everybody who is comfortable commenting at this site should be prepared to leave this country in a hurry if we slide much farther into fascism.
Ten Bears
Pragmatic advice, sop, though lacking in practicality. Not unlike suggesting folks who’s coastal property values are tanking just sell their homes and leave. And Eiron, the goddess of irony, farted with “everyone … should be prepared to leave the country” in a discussion thread heavy on hating on the swarthy invaders from the mid-latitudes more than prepared to leave their country. It’s a long walk to Canada, and they’re about as welcoming of us as we the swarthy mid-latitudians.
Not that I necessarily disagree, just that we’re up to our asses in alligators …
different clue
I am too old and anchored in to leave the country. I will just have to stay here and take whatever happens.
As to the younger and more mobile, if ManMade Global Overheating reaches the damage levels some are expecting, much of Mexico AND Central America AND the Caribbean AND the Southern and Plains-and-Prairie US will become unhabitable.
If that happens, a hundred and fifty million Latino Swarthistanis will join a hundred and fifty million Southern and Mid-Continent Americans in mass-moving into Canada however the Canadians feel about it. We will send more Climate Refugees than Canada has rounds of machine gun ammunition. It will be a New World Disorder.
And if the EuroSettler Canadians complain about the injustice of it all, the Canadio-Canadian Indigenous Nationals can say ” welcome to the club.”
Albertde
You know this doesn’t happen in Canada because any employer caught with illegal workers is heavily fined (up to C$50,000) and the workers involved arre deported after a hearing. Result: very few illegal workers are hired -it is too risky for the employer and the worker.
This is typical of Fahrenheit Land. The government is not allowed to take a logical course of action and is reduced to subterfuges to solve a problem. Building a wall is a lot more expensive than enforcing immigration laws.
As far as immigration is concerned, applicants are admitted to Canada based on a points system, which basically favours immigrants who speak one of the official languages (English or French) and are qualified to work in a field of employment where there is a shortage. The unemployment rate in Canada is at its lowest level since 1976. Applicants applying for a family reunion have a lower priority than ones applying via the points system.
We do have an immigration problem – it is related to people claiming asylum and entering via the Fahrenheit border outside of an official entry point. Most of them have already got asylum in Fahrenheit Land or are attempting to skate around the official path for immigration by getting a tourist visa to Fahrenheit land and ducking across the border.
different clue
@Albertde,
Your analysis of the Illegal Immigration problem in America is correct. The upper classes favor Illegal Immigration as a source of underpayable and exploitable rightless labor. Conservative bussiness owners want it for all the obvious reasons. Bourgeois Liberal virtue-signallers like Digby in California want it so they can enjoy underpaid nannies and underpaid lawn care and underpriced food in restaurants while awarding themselves moral-superiority stuff-strutting points all at the same time.
Ideally, getting Sanders nominated for DemParty nominee and then elected President might be the sort of victory for a New Deal Revival movement that would give it enough heart and morale and power that it could force a New Deal Revival majority into both Houses of Congress.
Then we could work on mass release of non-violent drug-law prisoners and other “war on some crimes” prisoners who were wildly over-prosecuted and oversentenced . . . so that we could open up enough prison space to mass-incarcerate enough hundreds of thousands of illegal employERS that the rest of the illegal-wannabe-employERS would be too terrorized to dare attempt the illegal employMENT they would so desperately want to continue.
* * * * * * * * * * * *
You appear to think that “Fahrenheit” is some kind of epithet and that we would take “Fahrenheit Land” as an insult. What exactly do you have against the Fahrenheit System?
What exactly did a Fahrenheit Degree ever do to you?
Ivory Bill Woodpecker
Ah, but as Albertde probably already knows, here in Fahrenheitstan, employers are Job Creators, who are the ordained and favored children of Fake Rethuglican Jeebus’s Daddy, so to prosecute them for anything is the foulest, most sinful and blasphemous form of lese majeste known.
Of course, while Fake Rethuglican Jeebus would oppose prosecution of Job Creators for their actual crimes, that long-haired hippie proto-socialist Actual Jesus of Nazareth might well favor it–the accounts of his life state that He had little patience with greedy people, as the money-changers of the Temple could tell you.
Albertde
Fahrenheit is a symbol for the unscientific mindset – Liberal and Conservative – of the people living in Fahrenheit Land. There is no other developed country in the world using your Fahrenheit system. I always refer to your country as Fahrenheit Land. And your country aspires to lead the world!
Ivory Bill Woodpecker
@Albertde–Besides, to the Good (sh’yeah, right) Common Upstanding (fake) Christian White Folks of the Wannabe Neo-Confederacy, the metric system symbolizes them uppity pinko atheist intellectuals with their so-called “science”.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZZvT2r828QY
Ten Bears
EYaw, far as ‘enlightenment’ goes it’s safe to say that in ‘Muirka the lights may be on but no ones at home. A few sticks shy of a full load, one can of crappy beer away from a six-pack. Not all the puppies are barking. Good thing we can, as I alluded to earlier and our illustrious Secretary of State points out today (as reported by MSNBC house blogger Steve Benen): we can just move away.
En masse. Caravan to the Yukon Territories.
ponderer
I wonder if there were similar debates over slavery. One side arguing that we shouldn’t be bringing in foreigners to do work that we have people to do and another side complaining that the low wage slave jobs wouldn’t be taken by any self respecting American. Providing food and shelter to illegals is akin to transporting the pitiful masses to a little better hell. The Neoliberal savior, concerned about the little people rides to the rescue yet again. Only now we don’t feed, clothe, or shelter the new arrivals as part of their servitude. The yoke is still as heavy, the field as large and inhospitable. There’s no escape even if you can walk the country “freely”. More grist for the mill.
There is no helping of the poor in these “debates”. That’s a lie spread by the sanctimonious and craven alike. You only need to look at the end result, our society, to see that’s true. There is only furthering a neo-liberal system that spreads misery across continents to keep iPhones cheap, and 90% of the population in invisible chains. It would be nice if the “Liberals” among us wouldn’t help the poor into their death beds so readily that they must scour the earth to find more.
Ché Pasa
We’re unlikely to find a single answer to the immigration/migration problem. Instead of dealing with it comprehensibly and humanely, however, our system of rule demands that it be a perpetual political issue, waxing and waning depending on the needs of the overclass, and that the migrants be the scapegoats for their own damnation.
But whatever else is the case, doing something to mitigate the hardships of migrants in the US desert, however little it may be, is hardly a crime — though it may be against the law. Lots of things that reasonable people wouldn’t think of as criminal are against the law, and selective prosecution — “to send a message” among other reasons — is widely employed by authority in pursuit of particular goals. In this case, a goal is furthering the government’s (not just Trump’s) desire to serve its base constituency. This isn’t just a border issue, for similar tactics have long been used by cities and localities to discourage charitable acts toward domestic beggars and the homeless, who must not be succored, fed, sheltered, or clothed in public. There’s even a law against giving water on a hot day to a beggar or homeless person in a nearby city. No blankets on cold nights. No food unless at an approved shelter. And whatever else, no money at all. Under any circumstances. Ever.
Willy
A good conservative Christian would’ve given them food, water, and shelter. Then called the cops.
If they were really into the old testament they would’ve gotten together a posse, crossed the river Grande into Jericho, then “utterly destroyed all that was in the city, both man and woman, young and old, and ox, and sheep, and ass, with the edge of the sword”. Then used the pillaged money to pay for a wall. Thank God Jesus was the mellow one.
Immigration is like offshoring. In properly measured amounts it seems to work alright, mostly. But flood gates wide-open, not so much.
different clue
@Albertde,
Thank you for your reply to my comment. It was certainly heartfelt, even if not well-founded.
I work in a large academic hospital inpatient pharmacy department. We do all our work and measurement in metric. As do all hospitals and all medical settings in fact, and all outpatient pharmacies. And our science is conducted in metric ( and centigrade). So in actual fact, we have already metricated and centigraded all aspects of scientific and technical endeavor which benefit from metrication and centigradification.
Where metric and centigrade have nothing of value to add to anything, we have not adopted them. We have preserved our culture of traditional measure, even if you could not be bothered to have done the same. When living the cultural and daily side of life, we prefer using our natural organic Fahrenheit degrees the way God made them, as discovered by that great American Gustav Fahrenheit.
We find your toxic radioactive chemical-waste centigrade degrees to be smelly and nasty and distasteful.
If a preference for natural organic Fahrenheit degrees over nasty petrochemical-waste Centigrade degrees disqualifies America for world leadership, that does not bother me. If I were forced to choose between world leadership or Fahrenheit degrees, I would choose to keep the Fahrenheit degrees and let the world leadership go.
different clue
After two days, Albertde has made no reply to my reply. It is clear that Albertde has granted me the last word on the subject.
StewartM
Coming in late to this, because of demands on my time and life:
IBW is right, but he doesn’t go far enough. We NEED immigration, because of our aging population, which would be in absolute decline if not for immigrants. Immigration-phobic Japan, which I believe SBrennan thinks is the only true way to go, is planning on raising its age for pension eligibility to *70 or above*!! Unless you think that the ‘good economy for the 99 %’ involves 70-somethings, 80-somethings, and even 90-somethings dottering behind a counter to make a sandwich for you, then you’d realize pretty damn quick that we need younger people from outside.
And no, let’s not talk about growing the number of native-born children; everyone agrees the world as a whole doesn’t need more babies. We have plenty of babies still being born, outside the US; we should make use of them.
It’s not just for the manual labor jobs, we also get a lot of high-skilled immigrants with degrees that US students don’t want to pursue (perhaps because, US students come out of college burdened with so much student debt they have to pursue the most lucrative fields, such as financial services and medicine). It’s not just a dearth of (young) STEM people, in my experience the ones we hire in don’t want to stay actual STEM practitioners but want to get desk jobs in management and elsewhere (again, probably think, student debt burden, and management pay is way higher than worker pay, even if you’re a STEM worker). So the only young people we get who actually want to stay in STEM jobs and DO the actual grunt work are from overseas, by and large. American kids with STEM degrees are eyeing their first opportunity to be director or vice president–again, maybe for understandable reasons, because of student debt, but that’s what they do.
Nor does immigration cause unemployment or low wages. It’s CAPITALISM that causes these. Blaming immigration is the default shtick for those who can’t bring themselves to blame capitalism. At my company, from an objective assessment of needs and goals versus resources, we could easily hire at least 25 % more workers, maybe 30 % or higher, to do the work. Instead, you have people running around wearing multiple hats trying to tackle difficult problems that they can’t possibly focus on because they have too-many responsibilities. Moreover, even in the downturn due to Trump’s tariffs, we could easily afford to hire these people. But we don’t, because the CAPITALISTS want the most hefty cut for their own pockets that we or any other company can send them, each and every quarter.
This isn’t true for my tech company, a willful shortage of workers is true at every level in the US economy. Go into that sandwich shop, and you see one overworked and harassed employee trying to handle a long line of customers–and at minimum wage or near-minimum wage pay, too. Go to Asia, and you see four or five people behind the counter, and no one has to wait more than a few minutes to get their sandwich. So why is it that our even-richer capitalists who are taxed less than at any time in recent history can’t afford to do the same? The US capitalist-y economy is a shitty one for the 99 %, and not just shitty for people as workers, it’s shitty for them when they are customers, too, imposing completely unnecessary delays and inconveniences.
And I’ve not even brought up public sector work. Here too, we are woefully understaffed. Again, using Taiwan as a measure, when I accompanied a Taiwanese friend to get a biometric passport, we got there at 4:40 pm–and the place closed at 5 pm. And, the place was PACKED. Yet we were in and out in 15 minutes, I kid you not. Can you imagine any US government federal, state, or local service providing such a quick response? No you can’t because in our capitalistic-y inspired way of doing things is to have one overworked person trying to handle dozens of people with it being quite impossible for them to deal with their problems as individuals and to give them timely service. Plus because capitalism is ‘the only way’, we slashed taxes on the rich, which means that the government can’t hire the number of workers needed.
There is an adage in economics that ‘human wants are unlimited, but resources are limited’. There are loads of stuff that needs to be done, both required in mitigating climate change and attending properly to human needs, but we are artificially constrained from doing this (because, in the end, it’s workers and work that get things done, not by capitalists sitting on their asses trading stocks) due to having a capitalist economy with a capitalist overlord class dictating to firms what they can and can’t do. Worse, they’ve also used their influence to dictate to the government what they can and can’t do. You cannot be serious about achieving a good economy or doing something about environmental degradation unless you break that power.