You probably thought measles was a thing of the past. Along with Mumps, Rubella, Polio, Chickenpox and Heptatis B, kids are required to be vaccinated for it as a requirement of going to school. (So the little disease spreaders don’t act as disease vectors, which parents and teacher s know they do.)
We hardly see most of these diseases any more, because we make sure everyone is vaccinated, so they can’t get a foothold. (That’s part of why vaccines prevent so many deaths, and that’s why vaccine denial is bad.)
But Florida has decided the days of effective disease control are over:
Florida will end vaccine requirements to attend school, making it the first state to do so. The state’s surgeon general said every vaccine mandate “drips with disdain and slavery.”
This is batshit insane. I don’t care what you think about the Covid vaccines, normal vaccines prevented vast numbers of deaths and crippling disabilities. If they are discontinued, the diseases will spread and be given a chance to mutate. They’ll mutate to defeat vaccines, putting everyone at risk.
(The measles vaccine was approved in the US in 1963.)
I know it’s nice to think “everyone should make individual decisions about everything”, but that’s bullshit when it comes to public health issues, especially dealing with contagious diseases. I warned, repeatedly, that fucking up the Covid response (which was NOT primarily about the vaccine) would discredit public health “well it didn’t work for Covid, so it must be bullshit!”
Anyway, the age of rationality in the West was, overall, nice. But as a friend quipped (exaggeration for effect, I hope), “We’re at most 10 years away from witchcraft trials resuming.” (Ten is too soon, I think, I give it twenty.)
America is descending fast, and much of the Western world is going with it. The very idea of effective mass action has been discredited, and we are all going to pay for that, including the rich, who will find that they can’t completely protect themselves from the demons their malign incompetence has released.
***
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Oakchair
If we attributed every single decrease in deaths since mass vaccination to vaccines how many lives could they save at most? What percentage of the decrease in deaths came before mass vaccination?
Write down your estimate.
Figure 1 (half way down)
https://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/preview/mmwrhtml/mm4829a1.htm
Figure 19 page 93 of 887
Pages 88-93 and page 100.
https://www.cdc.gov/nchs/data/vsus/vsrates1940_60.pdf
The answers are around a thousand lives a year and around 90%. According to the CDC.
“poliovirus vaccine” “does not stop transmission of the virus.”
https://www.cdc.gov/poliovirus-containment/diseaseandvirus/?CDC_AAref_Val=https://www.cdc.gov/orr/polioviruscontainment/diseaseandvirus.htmvaccines%2Fvpd%2Fpolio%2Fpublic%2Findex.html
“A search of our [CDC] records failed to reveal any documents” of “transmission of Hepatitis B in an elementary, middle or high school setting.”
https://icandecide.org/wp-content/uploads/2020/12/Final-Response-No-Records.pdf
When did consent become batshit insane? When did the Nuremberg code become batshit insane? What did being pro-choice become batshit insane?
“normal vaccines prevented vast numbers of deaths and crippling disabilities.”
In the few randomized placebo studies done “Normal vaccines” increased severe adverse events. There was a dose dependent relationship as well exhibited by the Prevnar vaccine clinical trials.
https://icandecide.org/wp-content/uploads/2024/03/no-placebo-101823.pdf
Notice how the anti-vaxxer case is literally being made by quoting the propaganda arm and studies done by the vaccine industry?
Contrast that with “know they do.” “batshit insane” “vaccines prevent so many deaths” “bullshit”
NR
We already saw a measles outbreak in west Texas earlier this year with 1,400+ cases and 3 deaths. And this is with only a slow decline in the vaccination rate; most kids and adults are still vaccinated against it. If you take away the mandates, the number of cases will explode and only get worse as more and more of the population is unvaccinated. And it will get much worse than measles (not that measles is no big deal of course). 33% of infants born with rubella will die. 90% of the ones that survive will be permanently disabled. Bulbar polio will kill 75% of those infected with it, and most of those who survive will be permanently weak due to the neurological damage from it. Kids will die from meningitis or suffer permanent brain damage from it. Some kids may die from diphtheria again.
It will probably take 2-3 years for the unvaccinated to start to fully populate the schools with fertile breeding grounds for deadly childhood diseases. A couple of years after that we’ll start to see large-scale impacts. And it will only get worse from there. A lot of people are going to die from this, and the Republicans responsible won’t be in office then, so they’ll convince people to blame something or someone else.
If you want to see what things are going to be like 10 years or so from now, take a walk around an old cemetery and see the shocking number of children who died back before we had vaccines. We’re headed back in that direction now.
NR
Oakchair is back with another AI-generated post pushing his anti-vaccine agenda. And, as is typical for AI, it has false/misleading information.
This is what the CDC actually says about vaccines:
https://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/volumes/73/wr/mm7331a2.htm
Ian, I know you take a very permissive stance toward your comment section, but someone who copies and pastes posts generated by AI that routinely have false and misleading information is, in my opinion, abusing your hospitality.
Ian Welsh
I’ve banned quite a few people in the last few months, trying not to do more. Thanks for your debunking. I also edited the post to include charts showing the effects of vaccines. I assumed it was obvious, but apparently not.
I have some sympathy for those concerned by mRNA vaccines, mind you.
Warvigilent
gotta love how oakchair has all this statistical info that the entire medial establishment missed that vaccines are totally ineffective at all. Cant believe all those years the anti-vaxxers had to make up studies and claims when all they had to do was just look at all the information that proves vaccines work because it would have proved they don’t ! its just some miracle that all the diseases we vaccine against all precipitously dropped in incident and mortality rates! Another total coincidence they are rising in the states that are run by republicans who have pretty much all become anti-vaxxer death cultists! yep yep yep, must be nasty ol’ satan right?
Its funny how so much of this devolution and splintering of the Us is written about in the past, it seemed almost inevitable this route to fascism the us was on and easy to see for some. Though most remained blind I think for anyone basically aware it was a willing blindness.
bruce wilder
Blanket, non-specific accusations of misinformation are not very helpful. Dressing up any vaccine with a glowing halo of effectiveness, without specific detail is also not helpful. NR was bullying people in comments about the effectiveness of COVID vaccines in preventing transmission, when the early experience of Israel was showing clearly that vaccination was not very effective in reducing infection or contagion and contagion was the excuse for vaccine passports and coercive measures against individuals who wanted to opt out.
Just because smallpox vaccination eventually worked out well — we should not be letting pharmaceutical companies proliferate the number of vaccines including “vaccines” operating on very different principles in very different ecological contexts without critical attention. A vaccine policy is a public health strategy to address specific disease risks in a specific ecological context. There will be unintended consequences, Type I and Type II errors. Alternative strategies should be considered and costs and benefits and risks, insurable and otherwise, weighed.
I don’t know why the Hepatitis B vaccine is being introduced to infants universally. On the surface, it does not make a lot of sense. The rate of adverse events would not have to be very high to outweigh the benefits, given that we are giving the vaccine to a lot of people who will never be at risk of the disease or will not be at risk for many years. That is just one of these issues that I do not see being argued rationally. What we get instead are appeals to a moral and technical authority that does not exist or no longer justifies itself rationally with logic and evidence.
different clue
Maybe a Gilbert and Sullivan-type parody song could be written about this.
( Florida sings) . . . ” I am the very model of a Modern MAGA Shithole”.
Good luck getting non-Florida tourists to come to the plague-ridden sewage-lagoon state of tomorrow’s Florida. And then get ready for whatever non MAGA Shithole Americans still live in whatever non MAGA Shithole States still exist to the plague-ridden disease-carrying Florida lepers of tomorrow’s MAGA Shithole Florida future.
different clue
( In the comment just above, I forgot the phrase ” shrink away in fear and disgust from” the plague-ridden etc. etc. etc. )
Oakchair
Here’s how the discussion pretty much always goes:
Pro-vaxxer: Vaccines save millions lives. They’ve been proven Safe and effective.
Anti-vaxxer: Here’s the randomized trials, and other studies from people selling vaccines showing otherwise.
Pro-Vaxxer: That’s Misinformation! We need censorship! Anti-vaxxers are batshit, immoral and stupid.
Repeat over and over.
I understand it though.
The anti-vaxxers have to have no leg to stand on. They have to be crazy and stupid because the alternative… Jesus just imagine it.
The entire edifice of modern society –its government, its healthcare, its media, it’s experts– wrong to the extent that they’ve poisoned every single child over and over and over again.
That cannot be true. It must be false because the immensity of the graveyard is indescribable. The horror of it’s implications are the equivalent of waking up in a nightmare from Orwell’s 1984.
Even considering the implication is too painful to do let alone living with it.
NR
Good thing I didn’t do that, then. I pointed out the specific misinformation and provided the actual, accurate information. What people do with that is of course up to them.
Oakchair
“vaccinations will have prevented… 1,129,000 deaths,”
https://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/volumes/73/wr/mm7331a2.htm
How would we know if this statement is true? We’d go read the study used to make it. Let’s do that since we want to create a rational age.
“Following previously established methods (2,3)”
Here is the source (2)
https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC4584777/
“the cost-benefit model… “employed methods previously used(5)”
That brings us to:
https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/24590750/
We have to use sci-hub to get past the paywall.
The data “were obtained from the previous analysis (Table 1).7,13–27”
Guess how long this repeats? Another 2 times before I gave up.
Let’s just look at the last one listed above and see what we can gleam from it.
Data came from “expert consensus;” “CDC unpublished data”
“We assumed a 1.40% per year ongoing decline”
“we assumed that the cumulative incidence”
“we assumed”
Contrast that with this:
“children were allocated by birthday in a ‘natural experiment’ to receive vaccinations early or late”
“Among 3-5-month-old children, having received DTP (±OPV) was associated with a mortality hazard ratio (HR) of 5.00 compared with not-yet-DTP-vaccinated children.”
https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/28188123/
Or contrast it with this:
“the immunization schedules of these 34 nations were examined”
“Nations were also grouped into five different vaccine dose ranges”
Data is from “US Central Intelligence Agency (CIA), which keeps accurate, up-to-date infant mortality statistics”
https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC3170075/
So on one had we have randomized studies and studies that use real world data. On the other we have a vaccine funded “model”, based on a previous vaccine funded model, based on “expert consensus” based on a previous “assumption” based on “unpublished data”….
Okay then…
NR
Actually, this is how the discussion always goes:
Anti-vaxxer: Vaccines don’t work! I read it in a post from my uncle on Facebook!
Pro-vaxxer: Here are several studies saying they do work.
Anti-vaxxer: Those studies don’t count! They have problem X!
Pro-vaxxer: Okay, here are more studies that don’t have problem X.
Anti-vaxxer: Those studies don’t count either! They have problem Y!
Pro vaxxer: Okay, here are more studies that don’t have problem Y.
Anti-vaxxer: Those studies don’t count either! They have problem Z!
Pro-vaxxer: Here are sources explaining why problem Z isn’t as big a problem as you claim it is.
Anti-vaxxer: La la la la I’m not listening!
Pro-vaxxer: Okay, it seems like you aren’t arguing in good faith, so I’m gonna go.
Anti-vaxxer: Yay! I win!
I will say, though, that someone who lets Chat GPT write his posts for him complaining about others not listening to facts is highly ironic.
NR
Also, I suppose it’s worth pointing out a few things about the original study by Andrew Wakefield that purported to show a link between vaccines and autism.
1. The study was pulled from the Lancet because Wakefield both committed ethical violations (conducting invasive investigations on the children in the study without obtaining the necessary ethical clearances) and falsified data (reporting that the sampling in the study was consecutive when, in fact, it was selective).
2. 10 of the 12 co-authors of the original paper pulled their names from it and published a retraction.
3. Wakefield had financial conflicts of interest that he did not disclose. He had been funded by lawyers who planned to make money by suing vaccine companies, he had already made money as a consultant for those lawyers, and he planed to make even more money (tens of millions of dollars) selling “test kits” for autism.
Despite all these things, this is the only study about vaccines and autism that anti-vaxxers believe. Should tell you all you need to know.
NR
Another AI-generated post from Oakchair and once more, it has tons of problems. I don’t have time to debunk the whole thing, but here are a couple:
First, Oakchair criticizes “assumptions” in one of the studies (ironic, eh)? And of course, the study is based on epidemiological models rather than observed data. Models are often used when controlled experiments are either impossible or unethical, and they’re appropriate here. That’s because we can’t magically transport ourselves into an alternate reality where vaccines were not administered in the United States from 1994 to 2023 and see how many people would have died there. We can only estimate this with models that use data points like pre-vaccine era disease incidence, population growth and demographics, vaccine coverage, and disease severity (in this case, fatality rates).
Yes, models use assumptions. But it’s important to know that they’re based on historical data (such as pre-vaccine measles death rates), they’re reviewed and revised as new data becomes available, and they’re commonly used in public health (not exclusive to vaccines) and aren’t considered controversial anywhere else.
So, using models isn’t some kind of conspiracy to push false information, it’s a necessary scientific practice when controlled experiments aren’t feasible.
Now, the study by Miller and Goldman that Oakchair links has been debunked.
https://www.medrxiv.org/content/10.1101/2021.09.03.21263082v4.full#:~:text
“A prime conclusion for the manuscript by Miller and Goldman(25) is that “nations that require more vaccine doses tend to have higher infant mortality rates.” At the time of publication, a corrigendum was published to notify readers of unreported affiliations and potential conflicts of interest for the authors(37). However, as we show herein, the most important problem with the manuscript is that their conclusion could only be reached by omitting >80% of the available data. A re-analysis of the full dataset does not support the original conclusion. A re-analysis of only highly or very highly developed countries similarly shows that human development index (HDI) explains the variability in IMR, and more recommended vaccine doses does not predict more infant death.
Limitations of the Miller and Goldman Study
One of the major errors of Miller and Goldman’s analysis was unexplained data exclusion(25). In their paper, data from only 30 nations was used, despite the fact that data for 185 countries were available in their original data source (Figure 1). Within the text they state that they included “the immunization schedules for the United States and all 33 nations with better IMRs than the United States.” However, there is no scientific reason given for the exclusion of nations with IMR higher than the United States. In fact, the vast majority of the data excluded from analysis had both fewer vaccinations than the US and also a significantly higher IMR than the US. Strikingly, the manuscript itself discusses IMR data for Gambia and Mongolia, both of which were excluded from the statistical analysis, demonstrating that the authors were aware of these data.”
Emphasis mine. Outsourcing your research to Chat GPT isn’t sound scientific practice.
Joan
I’m going to state the obvious, but once a brewing pot gets going in Florida it’ll be global in just a few days of international flights. This is seriously scary.
Oakchair
This is the link NR provided:
https://www.medrxiv.org/content/10.1101/2021.09.03.21263082v4.full-text
In developed nations vaccines are associated with increased infant mortality. The authors checked the study data with the source data and found it “identical”.
We are told to ignore this “misinformation” because “inappropriate data exclusion and other statistical flaws” were made.
Well what were those flaws?
“data from only 30 nations was used, despite the fact that data for 185 countries were available”
Got that? Nations in Africa have lower vaccination rates then Rich nations. They also have higher infant mortality rates. Therefore vaccines save lives and you can ignore the fact that vaccines are associated with increased mortality in RICH nations.
But maybe vaccines save lives in poor nations so let’s look at the temporal and world wide association.
“There is no known example of a drop in measured infant or child mortality temporally associated with the rollout of a childhood vaccination”
“Using yearly infant all-cause mortality rate” shows “approximately 100 million vaccine-rollout-associated infant deaths 1974-2024”
https://correlation-canada.org/opinion-childhood-vaccination-mortality-averted/
Can’t wait to see that waved away. What insults will be used? Is it “misinformation” because 2000 years ago there was higher mortality? Will any randomized studies be provided or will the “batshit” anti-vaxxer be the only one providing any of those?
Oakchair
Read my posts and count the number of insults, and personal remarks made.
Do the same with the “vaxxer” posts.
Revealing isn’t it?
Alan Yang
We could allow Oakchair a post, as long as someone takes the time to check his work for accuracy, and debunk ant facts of conclusions that are irrational or based on false information.
Think of Oakchair as H.Pylori bacteria in the blog space. H.pylori is helpful bacteria in a negative way; the immune system must work to keep H.Pylori under control, but this helps ‘train the immune system’ to not over react. (At lease according to what I read). So having a person like Oakchair trains us to be sharp woth our critical thinking, and to research the validity of his and our assumptions.
H.pylori becomes harmful if it multiplies unchecked. So if we become lazy or unthoroigh with our thinking, Oakchairs becomes harmful. If there are too many oakchairs on thr comments section, then we meant suffer information processing overload, which is also harmful. So long as his ilk are not numerous, they can be tolerated, and indeed useful in an adversarial way.
mago
Long ago and far away I received childhood vaccines against polio, diphtheria and measles. Everyone did. They were administered in diverse manners, for example by sugar cubes for polio, or some round skin puncture thingy for measles. Most kids of my generation sported that round impression on the back of their upper left arm. Mine faded away some time ago.
I remember seeing kids crippled with polio or scarred by measles. I went through smallpox, chickenpox and mumps, and it was accepted as normal by the adults. I still remember the pain and trauma.
Anyway, when I think of vaccines I remember the time I was going to cross the border from Guatemala to Mexico and one of the entry requirements was proof of a measles vaccine, which I lacked.
So I found a public hospital in Quezaltenango located far far away from any central location, and I entered without an appointment to request the vaccine.
This was a hospital that serviced the indigenous, the poor and indigent, not some long haired gringo kid. But they treated me with courtesy and I finally saw a young doctor after waiting with the crippled and lame, the wounded and pregnant locals. A patina of despair and unclean surfaces dominated.
I was ushered into a room which contained a fish tank filled with off colored water. Numerous syringes sat in the bottom of the tank. I thought am I going to be injected with one those?
The doctor, though, was puzzled by my request and no doubt wondered how I even got there.
Finally he understood. I braced myself for a shot from a dirty needle. Instead, he dipped a wooden match into the water and touched it on my upper arm, then filled out a piece of paper certifying my vaccination. There was no charge. They were undoubtedly glad to be rid of this oddball so they could get on with serious business.
I didn’t have to show my vaccination certificate at the border, btw.
In current times I refused the messenger RNA vaccine for many legitimate reasons in my estimation. And I took a lot of heat from those who were multi vaccinated and all of whom contracted covid. I received no apologies, nor did I point out the hypocrisy and contradictions.
We’re all ignorant.
Oakchair
I wonder if this prompted Florida to decide to follow the Nuremberg code
“The study population comprised children born and continuously enrolled in the Florida State Medicaid program from birth to age 9.”
“Children with just one vaccination visit were 1.7 times more likely to have been diagnosed with ASD than the unvaccinated”
“those with 11 or more visits were 4.4 times more likely to have been diagnosed with ASD than those with no visit for vaccination”
https://publichealthpolicyjournal.com/vaccination-and-neurodevelopmental-disorders-a-study-of-nine-year-old-children-enrolled-in-medicaid/
I wonder what a study in Canada done by doctors who’ve injected thousands of children with vaccines found?
“Using the self-controlled case series design we examined 271,495 12 month vaccinations and 184,312 18 month vaccinations”
After vaccination there was a statistically significant 33% increase in hospitalizations.
https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC3236196/
Gee what did a study of 10 years of a pediatric practice find? You know a practice that regularly gave children vaccines?
Table 4
Compared to unvaccinated children vaccinated children had higher odds of
Fever 9.5
Ear pain 4.1
Otitis media 3.1
Otitis externa 3.8
Eye disorders (other) 1.9
Ear disorders 2.3
Asthma 3.5
Allergic rhinitis 6.5
Sinusitis 3.5
Breathing issues 2.5
Anemia 6.3
Eczema 4.7
Behavioral issues 3.1
Gastroenteritis 4.5
Weight/eating disorders 2.5
Food allergy 2.2
Pain 2.5
Respiratory infection 1.7
https://www.mdpi.com/1660-4601/17/22/8674
Probably gonna need another 3 new insults. Better throw in everyone knows and the experts say so just to make sure the denial sticks.
NR
Except vaccines are not associated with increased mortality in RICH nations. This was literally stated in the part of the study that I quoted here, I guess you just didn’t bother to read it?
“A re-analysis of only highly or very highly developed countries similarly shows that human development index (HDI) explains the variability in IMR, and more recommended vaccine doses does not predict more infant death.”
And I have to say that you complaining about insults is pretty incredible, given how condescending and insulting you always are toward people who don’t share your views.
NR
The problem here is the gross disparity of effort that goes into Oakchair’s posts versus anyone who might debunk him. It takes Oakchair maybe 30 seconds to type a prompt into Chat GPT and copy and paste what it spits out into the comments here. It can potentially take someone hours to debunk that. Debunking the things it takes him no time at all to post here could potentially turn into an entire part-time job for someone else, and it’s one that nobody’s getting paid for. That’s the problem.
NR
Oakchair is back with a study funded by an anti-vax org purporting to show that vaccines cause autism. Here’s a debunking of that one:
https://theunbiasedscipod.substack.com/p/anatomy-of-a-failure-why-this-latest
I wonder what Oakchair–sorry, I mean, Chat GPT–will come up with next?
different clue
I thought of some possible Gilbert and Sullivan type parody song titles which “scan” better than the one I suggested above.
I Am the Very Model of a MAGA Shithole Congressman.
I Am the Very Model of a MAGA Shithole Senator.
I Am the Very Model of a MAGA Shithole Governor.
I Am the Very Model of a MAGA Shithole President.
Maybe someone who is smarter than I am can write the songs for those titles.
cc
As b over at the excellent Moon of Alabama blog asked a little over a year ago:
“How much the anti-vax movement in the ‘west’ was a reaction to the anti-Chinese Pentagon manipulations in the Philippines and elsewhere? Such campaigns always ‘leak’ and have echoes.”
https://www.moonofalabama.org/2024/06/open-sunday.html
That was based on the Reuters article “Pentagon ran secret anti-vax campaign to undermine China during pandemic”. Excerpts:
“The U.S. military launched a clandestine program amid the COVID crisis to discredit China’s Sinovac inoculation [..] One target: the Filipino public. Health experts say the gambit was indefensible and put innocent lives at risk.”
…
“At the height of the COVID-19 pandemic, the U.S. military launched a secret campaign [..] in the Philippines, a nation hit especially hard by the deadly virus.
The clandestine operation has not been previously reported. It aimed to sow doubt about the safety and efficacy of vaccines and other life-saving aid that was being supplied by China, a Reuters investigation found. Through phony internet accounts meant to impersonate Filipinos, the military’s propaganda efforts morphed into an anti-vax campaign. Social media posts decried the quality of face masks, test kits and the first vaccine that would become available in the Philippines – China’s Sinovac inoculation.
Reuters identified at least 300 accounts on X, formerly Twitter, that matched descriptions shared by former U.S. military officials familiar with the Philippines operation. Almost all were created in the summer of 2020 and centered on the slogan #Chinaangvirus – Tagalog for China is the virus.”
…
The U.S. military’s anti-vax effort began in the spring of 2020 and expanded beyond Southeast Asia before it was terminated in mid-2021, Reuters determined. Tailoring the propaganda campaign to local audiences across Central Asia and the Middle East, the Pentagon used a combination of fake social media accounts on multiple platforms to spread fear of China’s vaccines among Muslims at a time when the virus was killing tens of thousands of people each day. A key part of the strategy: amplify the disputed contention that, because vaccines sometimes contain pork gelatin, China’s shots could be considered forbidden under Islamic law.
The military program started under former President Donald Trump and continued months into Joe Biden’s presidency, Reuters found – even after alarmed social media executives warned the new administration that the Pentagon had been trafficking in COVID misinformation. The Biden White House issued an edict in spring 2021 banning the anti-vax effort, which also disparaged vaccines produced by other rivals, and the Pentagon initiated an internal review, Reuters found.
By spring 2021, the National Security Council ordered the military to stop all anti-vaccine messaging. [..] Even so, Reuters found some anti-vax posts that continued through April and other deceptive COVID-related messaging that extended into that summer. Reuters could not determine why the campaign didn’t end immediately with the NSC’s order. In response to questions from Reuters, the NSC declined to comment.
…
[T]he Pentagon’s clandestine propaganda efforts are set to continue. In an unclassified strategy document last year, top Pentagon generals wrote that the U.S. military could undermine adversaries such as China and Russia using “disinformation spread across social media, false narratives disguised as news, and similar subversive activities [to] weaken societal trust by undermining the foundations of government.”
“And in February, the contractor that worked on the anti-vax campaign – General Dynamics IT – won a $493 million contract. Its mission: to continue providing clandestine influence services for the military.”
https://www.reuters.com/investigates/special-report/usa-covid-propaganda/
–
So to what extent was the anti-vaxx movement birthed and metastasized by the vast, out-of-control, psychopathic US clandestine psy-ops apparatus? (The same apparatus that pushes the use of “CCP” in place of CPC, also with the aim of denigrating and discrediting the same target.)
Same question of course as for that other global problem of Wahhabi/AQ/ISIS extremism that those US agencies cultured, fostered, funded, armed and unleashed as a weapon in Afghanistan in the late 1970’s, and that they metastasized globally to other regime change targets like Russia (Chechnya), China (Xinjiang), Yugoslavia/Serbia/Kosovo, Iraq, Libya, Syria, “Seven countries in five years”, West Africa, etc. and roundtrip delivery of ISIS-K back to Afghanistan again.
So is an appropriate word for the deadly consequences of this US-engineered vaccine-fear perhaps also “blowback”?
Soredemos
Anti-vax, as a concept, fascinates me because how is it not supposed to work? Do people imagine the immune system isn’t real? T-cells and antigens and so on.
If you accept that the immune system exists, and I imagine most people do, then you probably also accept the mechanisms of how it works. It learns about intruders and adapts ways to kill them. A vaccine simply pretrains that response.
We can debate vaccines on a case by case basis, sure, but as a concept to deny it works is asinine.
edwin
Rabies should be added to the list. Vaccine hesitancy for pets may also increase incidence of rabies in humans.
https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S0264410X23010150 (HT naked capitalism)
edwin
Oakchair engages in Gish Gallop.
Looking at one source he used: https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC3236196/
It is not about vaccines. (“I wonder what a study in Canada done by doctors who’ve injected thousands of children with vaccines found?”) It is about live vaccines. In particular, the MMR. There appears to be a definite minor safety issue from 1 to 2 weeks after injection for babies. (12 to 18 mths)
The following comment from the study is important in relation Oakchair’s comments:
“The explanation for this effect is likely the controlled replication of the virus creating a mild form of the illness the vaccine is designed to prevent.”
In other words, the side effects listed are a very limited sampling of what would be expected without any vaccines at all. To extend the survey to all vaccines dishonest. The study did not compare medical events from babies who did not receive vaccines. The survey did not look at historical data for disease effects for MMR if herd immunity was not present.
Oakchair: Table 4
Compared to unvaccinated children vaccinated children had higher odds of
Looking at table 4, there is no comparison to unvaccinated children at all. It is about the rate of hospital admissions over time. The study is about the clustering of hospital visits after immunization with the live virus used for MMR. The title of Table 4 is: “Table 4. Relative incidence of combined endpoint (hospital admission or emergency room visit) following 18 month vaccination.”
I doubt the Oakchair actually read the link he presented. I doubt he cares.
NR
Edwin: Oakchair is just copying and pasting text generated by Chat GPT into the comments here. And as we all know by now, Chat GPT is not a reliable source (or aggregator) of information and it often gets things wrong.
Roxan
While certainly a good thing to eliminate these diseases, I grew up in the era before any many these vacines. We were not very concerned, as I recall. I had all the usual ailments–measles was horrid, chicken pox and mumps were just a nuisance. We were far more afraid of polio. I was nine, when I got the shot for it, in 1959. It made me very ill, but I didn’t care. There were a couple kids in my class, clunking about in leg braces. We regarded them with horror and no one wanted to sit near them. Still, most of us grew up just fine.
Forecasting Intelligence
I refused the Covid vaccines despite intense social pressure.
Despite that, I support “normal” vaccines and would rather the full truth about mRNA vaccines (their nasty side effects and damage to the body) doesn’t come out because of the risks folks will stop taking traditional vaccines – for the reasons Ian states.
mago
Yeah, well. The time proven saying Ignorance is Bliss remains an eternal verity.
Hey, where’s ML, apropos of nothing. Just wondering.
Jorge
Aurelien’s essay on this is the best thing I’ve seen on western society and it’s inability to promote public health ideology:
https://aurelien2022.substack.com/p/being-non-transactional
If you are unable to fathom the “anti-vaxxer” mindset, consider the continual degradation in quality of manufactured goods, and in particular manufactured foods (things you put into your body).
different clue
I took the mRNA para-vaccinoids against Covid because I was old-ish, fat, and had some co-morbidities. So I decided to take the risk. Nothing bad happened to me so far as I know. After shot number three I have had no more. I may bestir myself to find and get a Novavax shot. Novavax is not an mRNA para-vaccinoid.
I myself hope all the full truth about all the effects of mRNA para-vaccinoids does come out because maybe that will head off the building rush to start cancelling all the classical vaccines and bringing out mRNA para-vaccinoid “substitutes”.
different clue
I left a link about Kennedy fostering infectious disease on another thread and then realized it would be very relevant to this thread. But copy-pasting my whole other comment right back onto this thread would be a kind of cheating. So I will only offer the link to the posting itself.
https://www.reddit.com/r/BlueskySkeets/comments/1na2jmv/the_kennedys_dead/
We need an easy to remember nickname for our pro-epidemic SecHHS. Something like ” Typhoid Bobby”.