The horizon is not so far as we can see, but as far as we can imagine

The Terror of Liberals in a Time of Insurrection

It took me a while to understand the reaction to the attack on the Capitol. At this point only five people have been killed, no actual Reps or Senators were harmed, and so on. The response, however, has been absolutely savage. If it is up to Liberals, everyone involved will go to prison, and Reps and Senators will be impeached. (It probably isn’t up to them on the latter.)

Biden is talking about creating a new law aimed at ideologically-driven violence, which will be Patriot Act II, and which will be used far more frequently and far more intensely against BLM and Antifa than against the right-wing. Among other things, it’ll be a tool for law enforcement, and law enforcement is right-wing or neoliberal, as are prosecutors.

As with 9/11, the reaction is being driven by FEAR. Terror, even. Those who have something in the US realize they could lose it all, and those who have little but are keeping their heads above water, realize that they could have those heads shoved below water and held there.

It’s the fear of a COUP, of insurrection, of the government being overthrown. Liberals now really believe it can happen in the United States. The attack finally broke through their shell of, “Oh, we can fuck over 90 percent of the population and put 99 percent of the population in fear and it won’t backfire! Oh no!”

They now understand that their political order is in danger, and not eternal. It is not “The End of History,” their version of political-economy is not eternal and everlasting, nor obviously the good and right and everyone knows it and agrees.

And it’s those ungrateful right-wingers, the ones they’ve been pandering to for 40 years. The nerve!

Now let’s first point out that this is TERROR of a COUP.

A coup.

The US has launched dozens of coups around the world. The US is the world leader in coups. The US overthrows governments regularly, including democratic ones.

My overseas friends are having a great time with this.

Why did the coup in DC fail? Because the is no American Embassy in DC to provide logistical support.

Why was there a coup in the US this year? Because travel restrictions meant they couldn’t do one overseas!

You get the idea.

So, if you are terrified of this attempted coup, and what will happen if a future right-wing coup succeeds, you now understand what those in dozens of other countries have gone through and those in a hundred countries or so fear.

Get it? Coups are terrifying and bad, especially when they overthrow a democratically-elected government.


American-backed coups were and are an act of evil aggression. Biden will continue trying to overthrow Venezela and Iran, learning nothing, and Americans, learning nothing from this experience, will continue to support his efforts.

What’s happening in the US right now is that FEAR is controlling people’s reactions. Fear is probably appropriate, because as best I can tell, there are going to be similiar actions at almost all of the 50 state capitols. In Pennsylvania, Republicans refused to seat a Democratic Senator.

The US government has a legitimacy crisis. Something like 20 to 25 percent of voters think that the government is illegitimate, that the election was stolen, and that the Democratic party is illegitimate. Democrats feel the same about Republicans.

Twenty to twenty five percent is enough to sustain an insurrection more or less indefinitely, though somewhat below the threshold need to win a serious one.

The US is in for a bad period. People who genuinely think that an election was stolen and government is illegitimate, will do something about that and feel completely justified. Massive de-platforming and censorship of their views is going to be seen as confirmation of their world-view — that the media has been lying to them (which it has, but not about the election), and will not quell the insurrection.

Welcome to the Hell you imposed on other countries, USA. I didn’t want this to happen, even though, honestly, as a country, the US deserves it (though yes, many individual Americans don’t). Perhaps, instead of letting terror drive you to be even greater monsters, you might learn from this.

For those of you who are Christian, you might meditate on “those who live by the sword, die by the sword,” others on the fact that when you treat people badly, both you and they tend to become monsters. Those who are abused become abusers at a much higher rate than those who weren’t. (For a country that epitomizes this in obvious and sad ways, see Israel and its treatment of Palestinians.)

I reiterate my message of the last 12 or so years, that the US is in for bad times. With every year that has gone by, the time to get out or prepare for those bad times has decreased.

The US now has the necessary conditions for a low grade insurrection. How bad it will be, or if it will fizzle out, I don’t know, but the conditions exist.

Take that into account, and remember, the right-wing militias include a lot of eliminationists. They want to kill left-wingers, Jews, Blacks and “race traitors” in vast, vast numbers. If they ever get the chance, don’t bet on them not doing so, because if you’re wrong, it’s the last bet you’ll lose.

It’s also true, of course, that this could be a cyclical thing that doesn’t hit the worst excesses possible in the cycle and subsides. I certainly hope so, for a variety of reasons. Just understand that right now we don’t know that it will subside.

The next four years, at least, are going to be UGLY. Be prepared.

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The Terrible Bind America’s Elites Are In


The Conditions Now Exist For A Long Term Right Wing Insurgency In America


  1. NL

    (Apologies for a dissenting opinion), the events in question are preparing us for to go through a period of democratism:

    Democratism is an ideology based on the premise that the individual’s loyalty and devotion to democracy surpass other individual or group interests and separates the civilized superior people like us from the interior people like them.

    This should make us blind to impoverishment, degradation of our economy and never ending death from COVID-19. Our belief and devotion to democratism will increase in the proportion to our rising destitution. The US can hardly afford the military bases, giant aircraft carriers and interventionist foreign policy. The tech war with China is essentially over for the time being, and we lost. The Wall Street and big box and online retailers are working for China. The US agriculture and residual industry are working for China: US exports of goods to China hit an all time high in Nov 2020! If you are not trading with or in China, you are losing.

  2. Thomas Golladay

    The election was stolen though, and blatantly so with the help of the Establishment Republicans who are too cowardly to rig their own primaries.

    Nor was this a coup attempt by Trump, he wanted the count to go through so that evidence could be presented, Cruz 10 day emergency audit with signature verifications proposal could gather steam, and so he could see who his backstabbers were so they could be primaried. The idiots who stormed the capital upset all of that and caused waverers to bail on him. For that Lin Wood and Qanon morons need the book thrown at them. Especially Lin Wood who needs to be committed for a psych eval.

    Unfortunately the Establishment Republicans don’t realize how entrenched Populism is in the party now. Their political careers are over, those who failed to act against the steal will be primaried. Then they will go after the judges who failed to uphold the constitution and allowed the signature verification audits in a transparent and open way, and remove them. They will pass strict ID Laws to ensure legal votes are cast , ban mail-in ballots, require paper ballots, require poll challengers to be right next to poll workers and an infectious disease is not an excuse to void this rule. All have standing to sue over elections results and the ballots are available for audit by independent groups upon request.

    If Trump doesn’t run in 24 due to his age, Ted Cruz and Josh Hawley will, they know which way the winds blowing.

    Those hoping for a Squad led populist movement of the left, Don’t hold your breath, they are already licking the Establishment’s boot. Jimmy Dore saw this coming as well.

    Some levity on the situation.

  3. NR

    The election was stolen though

    No, it was not, and the fact that you continue to push this lie is disgusting.

    Trump lost a free and fair election, and his cultists simply cannot accept that fact.

  4. Willy

    Give us more of your famous links, Thomas. They’re always a hoot because they never pan out as accurate. Tim Pool is a notorious grifter, only in it for the suckers money.

  5. NR

    By the way, for anyone interested in the actual facts of the election, this is a good link that runs down all the court cases Trump and his supporters have lost:

    Now Thomas and the other right-wing trolls who post here will try to lie and gaslight you by saying that all of those cases were thrown out without courts ever examining the evidence, but you can clearly see from the information provided that many, many courts did, in fact, examine the evidence presented, and dozens of judges, including Republicans, including people Trump himself appointed, concluded that there was no evidence of fraud.

    Which should really tell you something about the quality of the supposed “evidence” that there was.

  6. different clue

    I believe I remember reading that the number of vote-casting American citizens who voted for Joemalabama was around 80 million or so. 80 million or so Americans are not going to be able to emigrate to somewhere. We are here for the duration. Ian Welsh’s advice to “emigrate” was only ever going to be relevant to a few hundred thousand Americans at most.

    So, do any readers have any thoughts on what those 80 million should be preparing for, either in general or in detail or in some combination? Do any readers here have any thoughts on how to make those preparations? How slow, how fast, which ones first, which ones second, etc.? And also, would different subsets of that 80 million face different sorts of risks in different parts of the country or in different parts of the same state or region? ( I suspect some of the most cut-offable cities will become Mega Death Trap Shitholes if all power/gas/water/food is cut off from entering them, for example. Maybe some of those 80 million Joemalabama-voters should think about the possibility of moving to big towns and little cities, which seems more do-able than leaving the country).

    And bearing in mind that resource depletion and Global Heatering will be speeding up at the same time as all this so … what kind of preparations might be “dual use” preparations? Allowing the preparation-makers to raise their chances of surviving the Big Heat Rising and supply systems eroding and the civilization-eroding effect of insurgency versus counter-insurgency ratcheting eachother up?

  7. nobody

    The US has a low grade insurrection/civil war now. It is approaching developing the necessary conditions to have a Rwandan or Cambodian style genocide.

  8. Hugh

    NR, the election had to be stolen because it’s in there either right before or right after “Thou shall not kill” the one about Republicans can not lose elections. It’s blasphemy to think otherwise.

    Thomas does us a great service because he shows how Trumpers can move so seamlessly from one lie to the next. Trump, Ted, and Josh suddenly aren’t carnies. They are men of integrity. They are patriots. And that violence at the Capitol? It never happened, or if it did, the violence was the great Trump patriots. It was against Trump.

    Part of me can’t help but see this as comedy. But at the same time, it hits me that this is the way fascism rose in Germany. There are people will believe anything because they have to believe in something. People who will never own up or take responsibility for anything. No matter what they do or to whom, they’re the victims in all this. The country is going to the dogs and brown people have a lot to with it. And on and on. If you are on the inside, your universe is explained. If you aren’t, it’s nuts and more than that a dead-end. You can’t live by lies alone. Lying won’t keep two plus two still equaling four no matter how much you want a different answer.

  9. Stirling S Newberry

    It is clear that the right us in the “very big lie” stage. It has been here before. Partially because there are two big threats to their existence. One is the liberals that want everyone to have decent care and opportunity. As opposed to guns and order. The other is people like themselves but different in some notable fashion. People who want a piece of the action. There is a large section of the population that are both: but not all.

    One large thing you have to do is remember that the Democratic Party is conservative. The Republicans are Reactionary, think LaPen in France, UKIP in England or AfD in Germany.

  10. Joan

    @different clue,

    I’d say focus locally and examine what your situation is: your supply lines, your social connections, possible scenarios. The US is diverse enough geographically and otherwise that broad strokes advice is likely all that could be shared here. I started thinking along these lines with the book Collapse Now and Avoid the Rush (which isn’t a prepper book, btw).

    If you’re not moving at all, take a good hard look at your current community and see what you can do. If you’re willing to move domestically, I’d examine your social contacts and see if there is anyone truly reliable/dependable and capable in your life, and start talking to them about possible future scenarios and consider moving closer to them.

    What I *don’t* think is a good idea is to move to a community “cold-call” without any social connection. You’re starting completely over, and the people there have no reason to like you, and will likely blame you for contributing to their rent prices going up or whatever else gets pinned on newcomers. That situation is to be avoided unless you’re really in a bad place right now (with water shortages or something extreme) and you have no choice.

  11. Ché Pasa

    Regarding “Q” — whose presence was featured almost above Trump’s during the Capitol Dustup:

    I first encountered a few posts attributed to “Q” a number of years ago, and I thought “This is baby-talk. It’s ridiculous.” Maybe it was Scott Adams, I don’t recall, who clued me to the idea that this “baby talk” was very high level psychological and emotional manipulation — which, later, Trump would employ effectively — that was at root a form of hypnosis. I wasn’t aware that you could hypnotize someone with the written word, but then… of course you can. What is devotion to the Bible, Koran, the Torah, or even the Constitution after all? The written word, just by the fact that it is written down, can have enormous power, and that power can be used hypnotically.

    At any rate, listening to the “Q” devotees hold forth at the Capitol, it was amazing how effective the hypnotic chants of “Q” have been over the years this entity has been in business. It’s not so much that they believe in baby-eating pedophile rings running Our Government — although I assume they do — it’s that they are so convinced they are right about everything and that they are doing God’s Work to overthrow and destroy “X” — the designated Other, call them what you will — at the command of “Q” through Trump, His Prophet and Executioner.

    Hm. Watching them at work in the Capitol, it was no different than watching a lynch mob. They were hunting victims to string up, chop up, destroy for their Lord and Saviour, and the only things they could find were Capitol police.

    It was a demonstration of how effective hypnotic control can be, and I think lessons have already been learned. “Q” set a right-wing mob in motion, but the same techniques and even the same entity could easily create a leftish mob, no? And why not?

    Having the Lower Orders fight one another was always endlessly entertaining to the original “Q” in the Star Trek series, was it not? Most amusing was seeing how easy it was to get them to do it. Heh.

    Meanwhile, a process note: Senators and Representatives cannot be impeached and removed. They can be expelled by their peers, but for the most part the People have no direct control over them once elected. This is why so many of them become so Bad once in office.

  12. Astrid

    If the US is smart about it, the oppression will go in a similar pathway as Russia, China, Vietnam, Sri Lanka, etc. Those countries has massive (US fueled) instability, and they successfully coped by being controlling and oppressive enough. Much of what Hugh harps on as oppression in other countries is domestically popular there and what those governments need to do for stability and legitimacy.

    Do I want to live in one of those countries? Probably not (though claiming refugee status in China is an option if things get ugly enough here). But most people prefer it to a warzone and oppression can feel normal if you live under it long enough, just as Americans have largely accepted the oppression of BigTech and Patriot Act without asking too many questions.

    But that control only works if it’s visibly beneficial to the majority of the populace and has some wisdom in how it’s implemented. Given their inability to learn from their innumerable failures domestic and abroad, I don’t see this batch of neoliberals + neocons succeeding. As Ian says, they might get lucky in the current situation because their foes are equally stupid and deluded. But with this bunch, it’s still starting another ticking time bomb that will now up in our faces sooner or later.

  13. Plague Species

    Welcome to the Hell you imposed on other countries America. I didn’t want this to happen, even though, honestly, as a country America deserves it (though yes, many individual Americans don’t). Perhaps, instead of letting terror drive you to be even greater monsters, you might learn from this.

    There will be no learning from this. Only leading and uncritically following into the abyss. There’s a lot of blame to go around and many are culpable to varying degrees for the predicament with which we’re faced, with a few highly culpable to a significant degree.

    For all those who aren’t Americans, an America unraveling is a very dangerous thing indeed for all inhabitants of this barely living planet. Don’t celebrate it and cheer it on as though you’re immune from the fallout and consequences of it. An unraveling America may mean the end of humanity if the result is a global nuclear conflagration.

    Donald Trump was the knife in America. The final straw that broke its failing ailing back. America was ripe for collapse. It just needed the right symbolic figurehead, in this case the turmeric-soaked carnival-barking narcissistic clown by the name of McDonald Trump, to blow the termite-riddled house of cards down. And blow it down he did, what with all that tweeterific hot air endlessly bellowing up and out of his putrefied flatulent leaky gut.

    Glenn Greenblatt’s latest article reflects a lot of truth. America’s wealthy elite, its oligarchy, gave us Donald Trump. He was their inevitable conclusion to their interminable insatiable corruption. What I don’t agree with is Greenblatt’s implied and implicit pardon of McDonald. Orange Man is worse than bad and just because he was the inevitable conclusion of pervasive endemic epidemic oligarchical corruption, doesn’t mean he is any less guilty and therefore somehow deserves exoneration rather than scorn and derision and judicial payback for his wrongdoings up to and including the murder of nearly 350,000 Americans and counting.

  14. Plague Species

    Seriously? I didn’t say anything that was anywhere close to as controversial as some of the comments here and the comment was not combative and reactionary. The reason I refrained from commenting for several weeks was because of the non-stop moderation of my comments and here it is again. Oh well. As it is above, it is below.

  15. Astrid

    If you have the funds, now is a good time to invest in home scale water collection and off grid electrical generation system, add a wood burning stove for backup home heating, and figure out passive cooling options. It can be as little as having a few dozen filled water jugs in the basement and some iodine tablets. The softest targets will be utilities and logistics infrastructure. So you can live in a “safe” location but lose power, water, and reliable access to gasoline. If you have kids living at home, think about what you’d need to home school then without the help of Internet.

    After that, maybe metal bars on windows and strengthening/metal doors. It’s universal in “3rd world countries” for a reason. Since we are living in one for all practical purposes, might as well protect yourself for it.

    Different Clue suggested Survival Saturday on this blog and I’d definitely would like that. The prepped blogs (including what the former The Archdruid Report and Orlov Report) has devolved into echo chambers of confirmation biases and unnecessary theorizing. NC’s latest hissy fit show they are still in denial about how bad bad can be. This would be a nice space to have relatively rational discussions of what surviving a collapse might entail.

  16. GlassHammer

    “At this point only five people have been killed, no actual Reps or Senators were harmed, and so on.” – Ian

    You know about 50 officers were injured and more than a few of them went to the hospital. No idea how many were injured in total from the events of that day.

    “As with 9/11, the reaction is being driven by FEAR.”

    No Ian it is being driven by Anger not Fear just like 9/11. People want to channel their anger and sadism into revenge. If you thought Fear motivates the response to this and similar events you are off the mark.

    “Liberals now really believe it can happen in the United States.”

    No they don’t, if they did they wouldn’t be gabbing about it online and sitting around. Right now 90% of them think the law/authorities can handle it. That might turn out to be a bad assumption but that is where their head is at.

    “And it’s those ungrateful right wingers, the ones they’ve been pandering to for 40 years. The nerve!”

    No it is broadly middle class and lower class America that they pander to and bombard with propoganda. This recent event is the outburst of the Republican subset of that broader group.

    “The US has a legitimacy crisis.”

    No, the US has a “lack of spoils” crisis, we don’t have the ability to enlarge the spoils (often referred to as the “pie”) and buy off competing factions. The frontier is gone, the WW2 spoils are gone, industrialization is gone, the service economy has been hobbled, the F.I.R.E sector can’t create and sustain bubbles, the ability to subsidize households and play with taxes is gone, the ability to extract spoils from overseas client states has stalled, the upward mobility of a college education has stalled, and our primary source of spoils is disrupting sectors of our own economy which always produces turmoil from Job losses.

    And this was all baked into our Republic which answered any and all question about who should get what by simply taking more and expanding our borders. Well we can’t do that now and we are going to have to deal with the questions of who gets what.

  17. Lex

    Hope we all enjoyed our last election. The future now is hard to predict beyond that it will be grim. (With a large dose of bitter irony, given Ian’s point about how the empire is coming home.) there’s very little any of us can do to prepare for the fall, partly because the contours of it are difficult to predict. The right’s mad max fantasy is just that; it’s not what failed states look like … particularly failed, developed states. Absolutely it will be violent, but where government falls, organized crime fills the void.

  18. Ché Pasa

    Whatever the intent of the Capitol Dustup was — and I think there were multiple intentions in play — the effect was a severe psychological shock on the electeds and their staffs. These are only “elite” in the context of the Government, most are not even remotely elite in the context of just about anything else. It was a demonstration to them that they had better damn well toe the line (whatever that may be) or they will face The Wrath.

    I don’t think most of them had ever faced the reality of their own precarity so starkly.

    So. We’re liable to see much more authoritarianism on the one hand, but much accommodation to the insurgents as well. Oh yes, these people will most certainly negotiate with terrorists.

  19. Feral Finster

    It is not at all a contradiction in terms to note that Trump in fact lost the 2020 election and at the same time a large swathe of the citizenry are seething with white hot rage.

    Trump ran as a populist in 2016, the sort who said some things that were asinine, and others were prescient in, the the sense of someone pointing out that the Emperor is buck naked sort of way.

    Once in office, Trump governed as a particularly weak, unfocused and dysfunctional republican. Even then, he probably would have won, but for the epically clownish response to the COVID. The irony is that the coronavirus gave Trump a golden opportunity to look and act presidential, and he blew it.

  20. Ivory Bill Woodpecker

    You lot are over-estimating the efficacy of the wingnut terrorists.

    There are thousands of National Guard troops in DC now.

    99% of the terrorists, confronted with “a whiff of grapeshot”–or just the probability of one–will scurry back under their rocks. It’s the other 1%, who actually possess the foul courage of their evil convictions, who will pose problems, but they will not be able to overthrow governments. Think McVeigh or “lone nut” shooters for the actual problems we may face.

    The social media services and their host companies are waking up to the danger posed by Q and similar mental contagions, and are cutting off the communication and propagation networks of these mental disorders.

    The White Man’s Ghost Dance will fade away once Uncle Sam and Big Tech stop the music.

  21. GlassHammer

    “Do any readers here have any thoughts on how to make those preparations?”
    – different clue

    Well…. technically it’s never too late to become a bit more secure and a bit more self-sufficient but it’s going to be harder to start now of all times.

    First, start with a budget because prepping can be a bottomless pit.

    Second, try to target the following categories: food, water, shelter, security, medicine, and community.

    Third, do what you can do immediately and try to tackle larger more expensive problems gradually. For example, maybe you can’t afford a firearm and ammo right this minute but you might be able to afford a strike plate for your doors and a few inexpensive alarms. Also, maybe you can’t build a 6 month pantry now but you might be able to make a 30 day pantry.

  22. Hugh

    “the coronavirus gave Trump a golden opportunity to look and act presidential, and he blew it”

    Given Trump’s mental illness, this was inevitable. He never had the intelligence or temperament to organize a response. He couldn’t even fake that he cared. And hundreds of thousands died. What is so amazing to me is that his supporters were right there with him denying it or dismissing it as no worse than the flu. These are people who have no problem denying an election they lost. From there to an insurrection at the Capitol is no space at all. Painting themselves as the victims, as law and order people even as as they plot their next crimes is no stretch for them. Trump has a personality disorder, I understand that, but the mass delusion of his followers is both spooky and alien.

  23. someofparts

    “The real question is, who are you? I mean, you’re reading this. You have the leisure to ponder American collapse like it’s even a question. The people really experiencing it already know.

    As someone who’s already experienced societal breakdown, here’s the truth: America has already collapsed. What you’re feeling is exactly how it feels. It’s Saturday and you’re thinking about food while the world is on fire. This is normal. This is life during collapse.”

  24. Ivory Bill Woodpecker

    @Plague species:

    Hey, I get moderated sometimes, too.

    It’s Welsh’s blog.

    He’s not the U. S. Federal government, or a state or local government in the USA; he’s not obligated to respect Freeze Peach.

    If he ever bans me altogether, I will simply shrug and move on. It’s a big Internet.

  25. BlizzardOfOzzz

    It’s a tale as old as time: the guilty flee though none pursue. They are guilty of heinous crimes, they know it, they know we know it, and are terrified of a righteous retribution against themselves.

    Also it’s their Reichstag Fire. Their performative wailing about the desecration of their hallowed halls of corruption and graft gives them cover (as they think) in the transition from soft to hard tyranny.

  26. BlizzardOfOzzz

    NR, not that it matters much now, but since you have a just-so story for every documented irregularity, remind me: what was your explanation of vote counting being shut down, only to be resumed in the dead of night to discover 100K+ batches of votes 100% for Biden, conveniently just enough of them to wipe out Trump’s massive lead?

  27. Hugh

    Trump on Trump inciting a mob to insurrection:

    “They’ve analyzed my speech and my words and my final paragraph, my final sentence, and everybody, to the T, thought it was totally appropriate”

    When Trump says “everyone” knows, thinks something, it is one of the tells he’s lying.

  28. NR

    NR, not that it matters much now, but since you have a just-so story for every documented irregularity, remind me: what was your explanation of vote counting being shut down, only to be resumed in the dead of night to discover 100K+ batches of votes 100% for Biden, conveniently just enough of them to wipe out Trump’s massive lead?

    Blizzard, that’s easy–what you’re claiming happened didn’t actually happen. It’s just another right-wing lie.

    As you can see, there were no batches of votes that were 100% for Biden. Happy to help!

  29. Plague Species

    Yes, America has already collapsed, or is collapsing as we type. Most don’t know it or care to know it. China won the Pandemic Bowl with a shut out of the Americans.

  30. Plague Species

    When Trump says “everyone” knows, thinks something, it is one of the tells he’s lying.

    There is no need for “tells” to indicate when McDonald lies. He lies all the time every time, even when he tells the truth. McDonald’s motto is, “I lie, therefore I exist.”

  31. nihil obstet

    Fear is driving the reaction. Most Americans have heard all their lives that they are free and democratic. We heard it at school, we watch TV and radio that repeats it, and our politicians tell us so all the time. Most Americans have never been outside the U.S. and most who have were on shepherded tours, never seeing the place or encountering the residents on their own.

    So what’s out there? Oppression! Lack of freedom! Bad men (it’s virtually always men) will run your life. The attempt in Washington is like the Nazis who will set up domestic spying and ship all good people off to concentration camps!

    From the view of the political class, what failed was the propaganda that kept most Americans from knowing that they live in a failing state, on its was to becoming a third world nation if not there already. So now they’re trying to figure out how to get ahead of the potential insurrectionists that might come after them without granting more self-determination to residents. My guess is that they’ll double down on more and harsher surveillance, and make the police state more visible. Unfortunately, I think that will work a little longer.

  32. S Brennan

    BlizzardOfOzzz – “it’s their Reichstag Fire” the reaction was so uniform, so consistent so well orchestrated that it did remind me of 1930s Germany. And the universal support for permanent censorship by the “left”/”liberals”/”progressives” would warm the heart of any book burning Brown Shirt. I feel pretty safe in saying that the genuine lefties, liberals, progressives of yesteryear would be disgusted to be associated with the “left”/”liberals”/”progressives” of today.

    Yesterday, I watched videos of Capitol security opening doors to let a large crowd in, there was no violence in this group, some merry making, some attempts at getting a chant going though most in the crowd wanted nothing to do with it. I saw no violence through out. Not saying violence didn’t happen somewhere but, I am saying, in the clip there was no sign of violence whatsoever. Clearly, the overwhelming majority of protesters behaved well and were respectful of the police. The violence loop rerun ad nausum appears to be a neoD orchestrated Reichstag Fire.

    Today “left”/”liberals”/”progressives” think they are aligned with the National-Security-State and The-Ministry-of-Truth but they are riding the tiger. And soon the tiger will tire of the burden when they are seen as useless and tiger will quickly turn and devour “left”/”liberals”/”progressives” that have been riding it’s back for so long. The nation having suffered the tiresome trio will silently say to themselves…and so it goes.

  33. BlizzardOfOzzz

    NR, your “didn’t happen lol” and a weak link may or may not be the best you’ve got. Regardless, there’s no deboonking the basic facts of the fraud, which unfolded in real time with the whole world watching. If the same sequence of events happened in Russia to elect Putin, you yourself, as we all know, would take them as prima facie fraud.

    As far as the court cases: here is what we’ve learned: “standing” means you can’t sue before you’ve been harmed; “laches” means you can’t sue after you’ve been harmed. Anyway it’s not really the courts’ job to decide the election.

    I suggest you’re a bit slow on the uptake — your betters in the Inner Party, whom you will soon be aping, have never bothered to try and persuade anyone of the legitimacy of their fake election. Anyone who questions the election is a terrorist, don’t you know? Yes, 280% of the population voted — got a problem with that? Treason never prospers.

  34. Stirling S Newberry

    Trump has the GOP behind him thus he knows that nothing will affect him.

  35. Ian Welsh

    Most of the time when someone thinks I’ve refused their comment I haven’t. I just sometimes take 12 hours or more AFK and if your comment stuck in auto-mod that means you wait till I get back to it. In a fast moving convo, if you don’t read back, you won’t even know it ever got let in.

  36. Stirling S Newberry

    It is weird reading the comments. It shows that violence is going to go up several notches.

  37. Hugh

    It’s funny how it’s taboo to point out that Trump, his followers, and the Republican party are fascist. It’s like there is this myth that we were all vaccinated against fascism so it can’t happen here. –Except fascism is not only alive and well in America but enthusiastically backed by a significant minority.

    Thanks to BOO for letting us know what the latest lines are from this minority. Seems like their insurrection was divine retribution, couched in semi-biblical language. And the election was stolen, recycling for the millionth time more of their debunked lies about it. So just doing God’s work. You got a problem with that??

  38. Stirling S Newberry

    As I am sure you know Hugh, the Constitution of the United States of America has a problem with “God” – however, defined – being part of the discussion. Though there are glaring counter-examples.

  39. NR

    According to Blizzard, a source that completely disproves the lies he’s parroting is a “weak link.” Good insight into the mindset of the American right.

    Anyway, the basic facts of the fraud are that there was no fraud. Trump and his lackeys screaming “FRAUD!!!!” over and over and over again doesn’t mean it actually happened, it just means that Dear Leader is a malignant narcissist who can’t admit he lost, and his followers have invested so much of their identity in him that they’re willing to go along with whatever he says.

    They had their chance to prove their claims, and many different courts looked at the evidence and found it didn’t support what they were saying. So all they’re left with is repeating lies that have already been debunked. So far, five people are dead because of their lies, and the only question is how many more will follow.

  40. different clue


    Thank you for the kind words.

    @Astrid AND GlassHammer,

    Thank you for the ideas and suggestions. I hope that people with ideas and suggestions and actionable information and/or books/sites/etc. about where to find it will indeed start posting it here every Saturday on the Open Thread which Ian Welsh is giving us. If it continues and then deepens and strengthens for a few months, it may become an informally recognized “Survival Saturday” to which other people might start coming and even contributing.

    If endless-debaters try to hijack attention and involvement, and trolls try to flood out the thread, we can speed-scroll past their comments to focus on the Survival Info comments of genuine material value.

    God made a scroll button.

  41. S Brennan

    File Under: Hugh, Daily-Deceptions

    “It’s funny how it’s taboo to point out that Trump, his followers, and the Republican party are fascist.” – Hugh

    For fuck’s sake Hugh, you accuse Trump/Trump-voters/”won’t-vote-Blue-no-matter-who”/and-anybody-else-who-disagrees-with-you as fascist at least ten times a day, often in one thread.

    Taboo? WTF Hugh, it’s the majority of your posts, no wonder your blog was such an abject failure…and why you need to bring your unthoughtful commentary here.

  42. different clue

    I might also suggest that Anthony Wikrent’s weekly wrap threads might also become a place for broader scale suggestions about how like-minded, like-informed, like-motivated people might practice economic offense-defense against threats, enemies, targets and problems.

    Because after all, economics IS the pursuit of war by other means.

  43. GlassHammer

    different clue,

    First your welcome, and second I will post something a bit more specific for prepping in the next open thread.

    Keep in mind that even when armed with useful tips much of this is going to come down to trial and error. What should have worked for me often didn’t either due to limits in my time, skill, finances, or patience.

  44. Astrid

    Hugh, who here is denying Fascism in America or that Trump is Fascist? I didn’t even see it in BoO’s argument. I see a lot of talk about why even Trump might be right sometimes or at least have a colorable argument on some points, but I don’t think anyone here is denying that Trump is a very bad man or that US is immune to Fascism. Indeed, I think most here think US is already an evil Fascist country.

    Trump is not an uniquely bad man. Indeed he is a sub par member of a subpar elite class. These psychopaths have the power and they are keeping the US and much of the world in our hell. Getting rid of him is not going to make much, if any, of a difference in our predicament, especially when Joemala is the replacement. You don’t acknowledge that and when asked, you reflectively go back to Trump is Fascist as though that’s sufficient justification for…I don’t even know what you’re arguing for.

  45. Astrid

    Different Clue, Glass hammer, Joan, and hopefully others,

    (Now feeling ashamed of my recent mud slinging).

    A regular informal discussion on surviving physically, economically, and mentally would be great. Ian has some wonderful essays on this topic already. I’m going to check if he’s willing to perhaps republish them on Saturdays and we can use them as a jumping off point towards discussions.

  46. Hugh

    Well, let’s see my fascism comment set SB off. American fascists don’t like to be called fascist for some reason.

    Is BOO a fascist? Yes, but my point with him and his is how they duck responsibility and always tell us not to believe our lying eyes but trust their self-serving fairy tales instead.

  47. Thank you, Ian, for letting me (also in Canada) know that I am not alone in being puzzled by the extreme reaction with the event itself. The riot was bad, of course: but it was also predictable, and predicted. The biggest surprise is that it took so long. I expected violence in the streets back in November. When it didn’t happen, I just shrugged and figured maybe I was wrong.

    The riot didn’t tell us anything new. It has been obvious for a long time now what direction the U.S. has been going in. I see the most likely outcomes as chaos or police state (Chinese social credit-style). “Progress” in that direction is expected, not shocking. Of course it’s upsetting too. like many others, the Reichstag fire was my first thought.

    I am not fully convinced by your hypothesis that the reaction is due to the shocking realization that the ruling class is not immune. I listened to Sam Harris, for example, who sees this as an attempt to capture congressfolk and possibly assassinate them in a full-on attempted coup. I don’t find that persuasive. Real power in the United States is not embodied in congresscritters or in their neoclassical habitat. You can’t “capture” the government. If you could, even Trump, in his mindless way, could have done it. Instead he is locked out and silenced by monopoly tech.

    Most of the protest looked to me indistinguishable from the mob that gathers after a major sports victory. Certainly there were sinister elements within it (zip tie guy is always mentioned), and that’s serious, but that doesn’t seem to me to be what the mass of people were there for.

    But you certainly could be right. These people have been beyond clueless before. (I think of Pelosi and her stash of quarantine ice cream.) They may be oblivious to calls since 2008 for them to be strung from lamp posts. (Not by me. I want systems fixed. I think bloodlust corrupts, and I get no pleasure from the suffering of the guilty. I can’t even be bothered to hate the likes of Trump, Biden, Clinton, or Bush.) The Hamptons, as someone said, are not a defensible position. If they’re only now figuring that out, their reaction makes sense.

    I think GlassHammer has some good points, but I’m not sure they are incompatible. Yes, there is anger and a desire for revenge. Yes, there is a late-empire problem of insufficient spoils. And no, they don’t seem to be acting with the decisiveness one would expect of the truly afraid – but when have they ever? People think and behave in contradictory ways. The ruling class are no more inherently rational than the rest of the population, and look at the range of reactions to covid, or the bizarre cults of the mainstream media and the QAnons. I think fear must at least be part of the story.

  48. GlassHammer

    “And no, they don’t seem to be acting with the decisiveness one would expect of the truly afraid – but when have they ever?” Geof

    Well we wouldn’t be looking for decisiveness to determine if they were afraid, we would be looking for aberrant behavior. Going from business as usual to deep levels of panic and anxiety would produce a very noticeable change.

  49. From “Trump sends SHOCKWAVE to Pelosi with B0omshell ‘reconnection’ with Pence”, on youtube, the following timeline is presented, which, it is claimed, has been confirmed by others, including the NY Times:

    12:15 – 12:50
    * Trump tells rally attendees to walk to capitol
    * group already gathered along west perimeter gets agitated
    * pipe bombs reported at RNC, DNC

    12:53 – 1:03
    * crowd starts to harass officers
    * crowd overwhelms officers
    * pelosi begins electoral college vote

    1:12 – 2:00
    * trump ends speech, tells attendees to “walk down pennsylvania avenue” to capitol
    * rioters already there continue to clash with officers

    2:11 – 2:16
    * rioters break into capitol building
    * senate called into recess

    Apparently, nobody present at the speech could walk to the capitol fast enough to have participated in the “storming” the capitol

  50. edmondo

    Maybe our “elites” wouldn’t have spent so much time cowering in the Capitol basement if our elites had spent one small second to help the people who actually voted for them instead of their donors. I’m not suggesting that a few elites make the ultimate sacrifice to show their love of democracy, but why not?

    there was no rush to defend democracy during the riot because democracy hasn’t been found there for quite a while

  51. Willy

    Most of the protest looked to me indistinguishable from the mob that gathers after a major sports victory.

    Well, except the team being celebrated is the New York Nazis. And that most of the fans seem like the same kind of Christians who would’ve volunteered to fight the Nazis of old. And how did Japan so ‘successfully’ lose it’s empire? History is full of national revival/renewal.

    The further away from the capitol the more ‘normal’ individuals within the mob seemed to be, based on videos and interviews. And wealthier. There were many well-to-dos in that crowd. I didn’t see a single “patriot” fascist telling us how they’d been screwed over economically by those corrupt elites, but that socialism and marxism were the enemy.

  52. Willy

    Didn’t Biden say something about setting aside the austerity for a while? Unfortunately, this might means “socialism!” to our brainwashed Nazi mob.

  53. Stirling S Newberry

    The FBI admits that they knew.

    While there are many possibilities one thing is clear: many people knew and decided to let things play out. Who knew is an open question.

  54. Hugh

    Here are some of the charges Wednesday’s great patriots could be facing:

    18 U.S. Code § 641, mostly concerning theft of public property and records.

    40 U.S. Code § 5104 – This covers a whole smorgasbord of unlawful activities on the Capitol grounds, firearms, explosives, violent entry, threatening language, acts of violence, etc.

    Also 18 U.S. Code § 930 – Possession of firearms and dangerous weapons in Federal facilities

    18 U.S. Code § 371 – Conspiracy to commit an offense against the United States

    18 U.S. Code § 111 – Assaulting, resisting, or impeding certain officers or employees

    18 U.S. Code § 1111 – Murder

    18 U.S. Code § 1112 – Manslaughter

    18 U.S. Code § 2383 – Rebellion or insurrection.

    18 U.S. Code § 2385 – Advocating overthrow of the government

  55. Hugh

    Yes, metamars, thank goodness, smart phones were only invented since last Wednesday so nobody could have listened to Trump’s speech unless they were there. Better lies, please.

  56. Z

    – Denying people those $2K checks was gas on the already existing rage IMO.

    They’ll be those who say that most of the people who flew in to demonstrate didn’t need the checks, etc., but it doesn’t really matter whether or not they needed them. The disrespectful bullshit deployed by our rulers’ politicians, econogandists, and their other PR people in the media to deny them still fed the crowd’s fire and led people, correctly IMO, to come to the conclusion that Congress is an enemy of the vast majority of the people in this country. And people are just fed up! “Let Them Eat Shit” Mitch basically dared us to do something about it.

    Those checks had about 80% backing of the public and our rulers and their pimps in Congress, whose stock portfolios and wealth are all being inflated by the Federal Reserve, basically told the population: you’re lucky we even gave you $600!

    Sixty percent of the people in this country can’t afford a $1000 emergency and Congress effectively denied them $1400 and it took Hawley and Sanders to even get us the $600!

    It just shows you that our rulers aren’t worried about the economy overheating, which psychopath Summers claims in one of the most ridiculous, intellectually insulting bits of econogandism ever spouted in that filthy field, but they just want to keep us desperate and under their boot. That’s what it is.

    – There was never any real danger of a coup. The military wasn’t going to fall in line behind Trump. But at least they scared Congress.

    – I hope Trump pardons everyone of those demonstrators.

    – There’s no way Hawley should f*ing resign for goodness sake over challenging the election results, which the democrats did in 2016 and tied it to their Russia Russia Russia lies, and for air fist bumping the demonstrators before they broke into Congress. Who would have expected that would have happened? But see our “donor class” absolutely hates Hawley … despises him … because the vile bastards who don’t give one f*ck about this country know that Hawley is a game changer in that he can gain support of the people and get elected without being “vetted”, aka corrupted, by our “donor class” which takes their power away. That’s why they’re trying to bury Hawley with histrionics.

    Whatever one thinks of Hawley, and I don’t know much about him, one should recognize that. And that’s why I got a soft spot for Hawley: I despise a lot of the people who hate him. It’s hard to imagine that he’d be any worse than our last four presidents and the two we’ll go through in the next four years.


  57. Willy

    Why did the authorities let this play out?

    There are many small time Youtubers, bloggers, and organizations which have been documenting the many online discussions these people have been having with each other on the dark web and places like Parlor, 8chan and Facebook. And then the hundreds of self-incriminating “patriot” videos.

    I’m disappointed that our horned Q shaman hero didn’t take one for the team and claim to be an antifa double agent.

    I’m interested in what’ll pan out from various official “Where the hell was the security?” investigations. I’m also interested in what our daily nutjobs will find in their fantastical “investigations”.

  58. Stirling S Newberry

    Actually, the people at the riot thought $600 was too much.

  59. Willy

    Z, in all the videos I saw attendees said congress is the enemy because they’re socialists and RINOs who don’t believe in giving Trump his “presidency”.

    This is a long ways from progressives fighting for the working class. I’m a bit concerned that congress has had its own “touch the stove” moment and will ensure they’re better secured against the more deserved revolutions.

  60. Stirling S Newberry

    McConnell believes that Trump committed impeachable offenses.

    I will speculate that this means Trump will pardon himself or get Pence to do it.

  61. different clue


    If Ian Welsh decides to do that, it could be a very good thing. If not, then using the Open Thread he gives us here as a “Saturday Survival” opportunity could still be good, if he decides to allow it to start and then continue.

    And even if special articles are reprinted, perhaps “Survival Saturday” open thread might still be a good place to give information/sources/links which are not directly alluded to or given-an-opportunity-for on any special articles which may be reprinted.

  62. Z


    Well, if that’s true, at least the mob found it in their heart to forgive Hawley.


  63. Z


    To many right wingers, socialism is when the other guy gets some. As far as themselves are concerned, they earned it.


  64. more on Ashli Babbitt:

    I spent an hour googling for specific information on her funeral and autopsy. Found nothing.

    After searching for more video, looking at how she got first aid, I found:

    From 39:20 to 40:15 closeup of her on the ground is visible

    in this time
    • nobody removes flag around her throat (though somebody fiddles with it)
    • nobody removes the backpack, which her head is resting against, kind of like an uncomfortable pillow (i.e., the pillow is too thick)
    • nobody tries to staunch any bleeding, or feel for an entry or exit wound

    the combination of her head being propped up, at an uncomfortable angle, plus failure to remove the flag (plus her long hair, I guess), means that any wound to the throat would be hard or impossible to see, in this window of time

    her chest heaves 2 or 3 times, suggesting difficulty breathing

    the first thing you learn in a CPR class is, before administering breaths, you tilt the head back, to open the wind pipe. The backpack placement ensures something towards the opposite, by pushing her head towards her feet.

    I don’t see any bullet hole through her clothing, so my theory of getting shot in the stomach seems ruled out. Possibly a special bullet with a flattish rubber tip would not tear a hole, but I am guessing. Thinking outside the box, a combination of such a special bullet, plus special clothing (say, made from carbon fiber?) would prevent tearing. (However, googling carbon fiber cloth, they all have a braided look, which is not observed on Ashli). There are very thin bullet proof body vests which are sold, so I think she could be wearing one, but I can’t tell.

    curiously, an article in the U.S. Sun says that she was shot in the chest

  65. @hugh

    I told no lie.

    Reading comprehension is key.


    George Webb was on the ground, interviewed a bunch of people. That video was deleted by youtube, but as of 3 hours ago, you could still listen to “G.W. and McDuff are LIVE” on the McDuff_2020 youtube channel. Webb also goes into likely special operations types, and their highly suspicious activities, including coordinated doffing of orange hats.

    The “Crossroads with JOSHUA PHILIPP” youtube channel has a video “Analysis of Ashli Babbit Video Suggests Coordinated Actions—Interview W. Masako Ganaha | Crossroads”

    What I find most amazing in her video is not what she focusses on (including an identified antifa guy that told everybody Babbitt was dead, when he couldn’t have known that; this dude ended up on CNN; echoes of the phony blue helmet dudes in Syria…). What convinced me even more that this was staged is that the door window that a couple of the rioters were vandalizing was, just prior to their doing so, being protected by 3 of the police officers. It doesn’t show in their video, but they obviously stepped aside to let the punks do their thing.

    What was it, coffee break time, for them? Were they intimidated by the passion of guys smaller than them, plus the many people who were there, just filming?


  66. Willy

    The guy behind Babbitt in the videos told of how they were both climbing through the window all storming-like, but she was the one who got shot. But we could all see she that was the only one first and squarely in the window and that guy was clearly behind. I say he was the one who shot her (accidentally) because he was an crazed and incompetent buffoon. This would square with the company he was keeping at the time.

  67. Willy

    But I’m open to the possibility that Jordan Klepper had placed an exploding device in her neck which would explode at that exact moment. He was there. He is probably antifa. I really think so. After all that MAGA mocking he’s been doing lately.

  68. KT Chong

    The US military leadership has issued an official statement condemning the Capitol riot, calling it as a “sedition and insurrection”. More importantly, the US military acknowledges that Joe Biden has won the election and will be the (next) legitimate President.

    It is an extraordinary move for the US military to come out to issue such a statement. However, now that we are seeing evidences and signs that police officers — including police leaderships — from all over the country support Trump and his coups, it is important for the US military to send a strong message to Americans, other countries, AND THE POLICE; and also to calm the anxiety by letting everyone know that the US military, unlike the police, will NOT back Trump’s coup attempts.

    As I expected, police support Trump and his coup, BUT the military does NOT. (Based on what I’ve been reading from Ian Welsh, he thinks BOTH police and military would back Trump and his coups; I disagree.) Which means, any further coup attempt by Trump and his armed magats and Trumpanzees/Trumplicans will fail – unless they want to fight and can somehow defeat the US military.

  69. Ché Pasa

    I’m among the early adopters (many years ago) of the idea that our elections are fucked up messes, international bad jokes, and grossly mismanaged exercises in futility. And they are.

    I rarely agree with “Lambert” on much, but his notion that the only way to ensure election integrity is “hand marked paper ballots, hand counted in public” is close to right. But it’s not perfect. I’ve seen how that can fail as well. But more high-tech is not the answer.

    Ironically, in 2020-21 elections there were more hand marked paper ballots hand counted in public than ever before thanks to the covid absentee and mail ballots and the many audits and recounts. And there were also intense and partially successful efforts at voter suppression particularly in states with Republican-controlled legislatures. This is what they do. Limit the franchise, and especially limit the ability to exercise the vote.

    As Trump has said, if you throw out all the “illegal” votes (by his sole definition, not the law, not the election officials’, not the legislatures’, not the courts’) he wins by a landslide. Ipso facto. QED.

    There was very little discoverable fraud, very few errors, no evidence at all that the “election was rigged.” Ergo, the endless Trumpie whining about the election got nowhere except becoming a brain worm for his fans.

    In some ways, that’s a shame because our elections are still an unacceptable mess and an international embarrassment.

    Only now they are almost guaranteed to get worse, not better.

  70. Rosa Klebb

    S Brennan writes
    “ I feel pretty safe in saying that the genuine lefties, liberals, progressives of yesteryear would be disgusted to be associated with the “left”/”liberals”/”progressives” of today.”

    Lefty/liberal/progressive of yesteryear here. You are right that most of today’s self-described lefties/libs etc. are, wittingly or otherwise, on the side of the surveillance/“national security” state and the globalist oligarchy. We yesteryear leftists often get together in our secret bunker to discuss this issue because we all know old-school lefty folks who have ditched their professed ideals and joined the dark side.

    What really amazes us geezers is how many Americans still believe in a corrupt and cynical system that has been robbing and abusing them for decades, if not centuries, and has nothing but contempt for the “little people.” A middle/working-class Biden voter and a middle/working-class Trump supporter don’t have much in common ideologically but they both believe that the venal American political system can produce a president who will “save” them and their families. Now, the Biden voter might say he’s “only” voting for a “lesser evil” and the Trump voter might say her vote is “only” a protest vote, but their actions nonetheless legitimate the system.

    Foreigners observing American politics often have trouble getting their heads around liberals/leftists who vociferously criticize the Democratic Party…while always voting Democratic! Up until Election Day they will moan about how terrible Biden (or whoever) is, on Election Day they will cry “but you must vote Democratic!”, and the day after it’s back to “Man, Biden (or whoever) sure is hopeless.” This is nuts, it makes no sense and, again, it validates tye system and lets it continue gaslighting and fleecing the American people. In the run up to the 2020 election there were even articles published that claimed voting for Biden isn’t the same as supporting him or his policies. This type of hardcore delusional thinking is an American speciality, at least when it comes to politics.

    There is another self-defeating phenomenon that is particularly prevalent on the leftish side of the spectrum. It involves rightfully disillusioned liberals throwing their lot in with…Trump and the Republicans. The “ex-liberal” who rants prolifically about how the liberals/Democrats have betrayed him (or her) but then ends up carrying water for Trump has become a blogosphere archetype. “At least Trump did/didn’t do___,” “But Obama!” Sure, the Democrats suck, and suck badly, but for some reason these people think Trump and the Republicans will do for them what the Democratic Party failed to do. Really?

    Another variation of this phenomenon involves “open-minded” liberals who seem to think Trump is a rational and reasonable actor rather than the loose cannon rhetorician (and right winger) he is. “Trump was right to scrap the TPP so please don’t write him off as a narcissistic carnival barker.” (It is possible that some of them, like “Lambert Strether” of NC, do this to keep revenue flowing into their blog or YouTube channel but I don’t think that’s their prime motivator.)

    It is obvious that Americans have a lot of difficulty detaching emotionally from the system that is taking the country down the road to (eventual) total ruin. They do a lot of mental gymnastics to rationalize their support, hard or soft, for a “reform incapable” political system and a political class that blatantly uses them as a means to an end. They also spend a lot of time denouncing ordinary folk like themselves for supporting the “other side” even though everyone who is in thrall to the duopoly enables that thoroughly corrupted system to perpetuate itself.

    Why do so many Americans continue to support a system that is destroying them? Propaganda. Americans are the most propagandized people in history. From the news media to Hollywood film and television productions to video games and school textbooks, American society is absolutely saturated with subtle and not so subtle propaganda that legitimizes American exceptionalism and the Red/Blue duopoly. The media’s influence has never been greater and with everyone carrying a smartphone it can beam tailored mis/disinformation directly to its audience 24/7. Whether it’s Fox News or “liberal” media, they all work to legitimate the duopoly in the minds of American voters.

    The only way for the heavily brainwashed to free themselves from propaganda’s clutches is to tune out the news media and learn about how propaganda and mass influence work. This inevitably involves a lot of reading and self-challenging critical thinking and that is exactly what the media propaganda complex seeks to prevent. It certainly doesn’t help that social media, tech company algorithms and an instant gratification culture have degraded the level of discourse and filled the “airwaves” with shrieking hysteria and bellowing outrage in lieu of rational debate.

    The bottom line is propaganda works. If there is to be any mass consciousness raising Americans have to regain their minds and learn to think and reason independently, to defang the propaganda they are constantly bombarded with. I can’t see this happening anytime soon.

  71. KT Chong

    Here is the full scan of the original and official statement that’s just issued today by the US military issued today — including signatures of the top commanders from each of the ALL branches of the military:

  72. KT Chong

    Watching YouTube videos of magats, Thrumpanzees and Trumplicans who are now pinning their last hope on the US military, and still deluding themselves that the US military will swoop in at the last moment to help them “Stop the Steal”. 😄

  73. Thomas Golladay

    Well the Generals spoke, they can’t speak for the rank and file. And frankly they should all be relieved of command for putting this out as it amounts to a political statement.

    These men are upset that Trump wound down the wars and kept them from starting new ones.

    If Biden the Usurper wants to reinstate them, fine, but they wasted the lives of America’s youth in pointless wars and denied Flint and other cities safe drinking water, killing thousands more. Fuck them.

    As it is, the Republican Party is now going to be free of Big Corporate Money (as they align with the Democrats), and then become a true populist party as they primary out the Establishment Republicans in 22, and go after the Lincoln Project, Federalist Society, Neocons, et al and remove them from polite society and from judgeships.

    Antifa is already gearing up to fight the Biden Administration who they view as easier to overthrow than Trump. Which shows how stupid they are, but whatever.

    That being said, Gab is growing exponentially, suffering crashes, but is basically immune to Deplatforming as it uses blockchain and open source code. Parler is suing the shit out of Amazon at the moment and Twitter and Facebook are imploding as Trump was their business, and by banning him, his followers went to their competitors and World Governments turned on them.

    The Left is eating itself alive in wokeness while the Right is purging the bad elements, going open source and shedding Corporate Money. Trump for all his faults through sheer incompetence has shattered the Establishment and they don’t realize it yet.

  74. Hugh

    Thomas, move very slowly away from the kool-aid.

    The Trump right is having a breakdown. The question we will see answered in the next week is how many major felonies they are willing to commit. as they see any hope of power ever slipping from their grasp.

  75. Mark Pontin

    I find Thomas G. educational.

    He’s a relative moderate, by the way. Check out some of the 700-plus comments here …

  76. Thomas Golladay

    Hugh, quit licking the boots of the Establishment. They will give you nothing for it. Just ask Bernie and the Squad. They are the ultimate cucks, don’t join them.

    Some viewpoints on this current slow burning fuze. Plus this:

  77. KT Chong

    Actually, Biden has more military rank-and-file support than Trump does.

    The annual polls showed that active-duty personnel actually preferred Biden over Trump:

    “…nearly half of respondents (49.9 percent) had an unfavorable view of the president, compared to about 38 percent who had a favorable view. Questions in the poll had a margin of error of up to 2 percent.”

    “42 percent said they “strongly” disapprove of Trump’s time in office.”

    “Among active-duty service members surveyed in the poll, 41 percent said they would vote for Biden, the Democratic nominee… only 37 percent said they plan to vote to re-elect Trump.”


    “Younger veterans were also more likely to support Biden than Trump, according to October polling. Of veterans ages 34 to 54, Biden was favored by 51 percent and Trump by 40 percent. By comparison, only 38 percent of older veterans (age 55 and older) favored Biden, compared to 59 percent support for Trump. That is also consistent with trends among young voters at large, who overwhelmingly supported Biden over Trump this year.”


    As for the actual military ballots on election days, Republican poll watchers observed and complained that:

    “I did find it odd that, throughout the day/night, I saw a few dozen military ballots be counted,” a certified poll watcher said in his statement dated November 4. “Although I cannot provide specific numbers or names, I can estimate that at least 80% of the military ballots I saw were straight ticket Democrat or simply had Joe Biden’s name filled in on them.”


    So, it is really not just the “generals” who do NOT support Trump.

    Personal anecdote:

    A lot of my wife’s siblings (but not herself) and extended family members were in the military, (i.e., mostly in the Navy, some in the Army, no Airforce😔) and almost all of them supported Biden over Trump. The rest, I don’t know because they did not tell me and I did not ask them. My wife’s younger sister also mentioned that a lot of their friends from in the Navy were voting for Biden. They are all rank-and-file veterans in their 20s and 30s. That was how I got the idea that the military would not support a coup for Trump.

  78. Thomas Golladay

    Update on the Arizona Legislature’s subpoena fight over the Maricopa Voter Machines and Audit.

    Those saying this election was clean are incorrect. Maricopa is trying to run out the clock, because once Biden and Harris are sworn in, impeachment and conviction is the only remedy against them. And the Establishment Democrats will close ranks with Establishment Republicans.

    The Left is too woke and idiotic to pull off the legislative victories at local and state level to finally bring the Federal Level to heel. You can safely write them off. Victory against the establishment will come from the right. They know now who their enemies are and are going off-grid from Corporate Money and prepping to break the Establishment for good.

    If you want the Endless Wars, endless corporate power, etc to end, join the Populist Right. The left is useless and aimless.

  79. KT Chong

    Someone did not just seriously use a Dim Tool video as evidence. 😒

    Here is all everyone needs to know about Dim Tool:

    Just how out of touch with reality is Tim Pool? 😂 🤣 😂

  80. KT Chong

    Also, Dim Tool wears that stupid beanie hat all the time because he is bald and really embarrassed/sensitive about being bald:

    Dim Tool totally 😱 when someone pulled off his beanie, and he has been desperately — and falsely — copy-striking that video footage on YouTube ever since to try to wipe it off the Internet. NOT happening.

    😂 🤣 😂

  81. Thomas Golladay

    KT Chong:

    I could say the same about you, but I hear people carefully in full and judge on the merits. You obviously don’t. Tim Pool sits the middle, because he realizes he has biases and it is best not to go off halfcocked and get burned, and that is a good thing. Wish more people would do that.

    As for the military, the polls were utterly wrong and given how rigged all this was, no ballot can be trusted till a full audit can be done. And the ballots you cite were the ones they refused signature verification audits on and showed all indications of ballot stuffing. Judge ruled no standing when the Trump Campaign moved for an audit.

    You, Hugh, and NR are the useful fools the Establishment loves because you will blindly aid them in looting you blind. I say keep your hand on your wallet, but its already been stolen.

  82. KT Chong

    If you thought Dim Tool is “in the middle”, that would made you so far to the right that everything else was to your left. 🙄

  83. KT Chong

    Also, pay attention to the group photo on Dim Tool’s RationalWiki page:

    I suppose Thomas Golladay also thinks Brittany Pettibone, James Allsup, and Baked Alaska are “in the center” and “socially liberal”.

  84. NL

    Rosa Klebb,

    “I can’t see this happening anytime soon.”

    Yep, as we can see from a complete silence to your comment.

  85. The darkness hates the light.

    While Trump isn’t fit to untie JFK’s shoes, he still cast some light into the current darkness. Enough to make real the Deep State and it’s extensive media collusion, in the minds of present day Americans. More recently, Trump has also woken up millions of Americans to vote and election fraud issues, in a way that Bev Harris and James M. Collier could not.*

    While Trump has physically survived his Presidency, it’s an easy guess that the Deep State will try to continue erasing his status and aspirations from the public mind, while simultaneously trying to demoralize the public that had hope in him. In the case of JFK, the demoralization was easy, because of the assassination. As for erasing JFK’s status, from a poignant article by Mike Ruppert’s website,, “ANOTHER INSULT FROM BUSH AND THE PENTAGON NEO-CONS”:

    This morning I decided to pay my respects to President and Mrs. Kennedy by doing something I don’t do very often in Washington – visit a memorial. I first noticed something amiss when I walked through the main gate to Arlington National Cemetery from Memorial Drive, the same causeway that, on November 25, 1963, bore President Kennedy’s horse-drawn coffin from Washington to be laid to final rest upon a hilltop overlooking the city. Roosevelt Drive, a pedestrian walk that pedestrians once took as the most direct route to the JFK Memorial was blocked by chain link fences and the iron gate was closed. Those wishing to visit the Kennedy gravesite were forced to walk over a mile out of their way, much of it uphill, to the site. For the old and infirm, the walk would have been too much. Taking the long route around to the JFK grave, it became apparent that other access routes near the memorial had also been closed, including Weeks Drive, a shortcut to Roosevelt Drive. There was no noticeable construction and the barricades prohibiting direct access to the Kennedy site were temporary in nature.


    As I walked away from President Kennedy’s grave site this morning – looking forward to another one mile detour around the normal direct access walkway – I pondered why the Pentagon and the White House would dishonor our 35th President in such a manner on the anniversary of his murder. But then the words of President Kennedy’s Inaugural Address on January 20, 1961 sprang to my mind: “In the long history of the world, only a few generations have been granted the role of defending freedom in its hour of maximum danger. I do not shrink from this responsibility – I welcome it. I do not believe that any of us would exchange places with any other people or any other generation. The energy, the faith, the devotion which we bring to this endeavor will light our country and all who serve it-and the glow from that fire can truly light the world.”

    Kennedy spoke of light. The Bushes speak of fear and gloom and they represent darkness. If he were alive today, Kennedy would agree that as with World War II and the Cold War, freedom is once again in its “hour of maximum danger” – a danger from within the United States, from within the country’s own institutions of government. By closing off the roads leading to Kennedy’s Eternal Flame, the Bush administration is once again showing its contempt for America’s traditions, its past. But as suggested in this article, the Kennedy assassination may be something the Bushes do not want that Eternal Flame to illuminate.

    I’ll venture forth a guess that Trump’s future marginalization by the Deep State will mostly amount to a media brownout on him, after he leaves office, except to report, occasionally, on legal persecution of him. (Possibly, if he bends the knee sufficiently, he will be re-habilitated, and the lawsuits will go away.)

    The marginalization of the MAGA movement is a tougher nut to crack, and I’ve seen warnings from a few quarters that widespread false flags, perpetrated by our lovely Deep State, can be expected at many state capitols and governor mansions.

    * If he weren’t so incompetent, he would have LEAD Americans away from the Big Tech monopolies, from at least a year ago. And he would have LEAD an effort to give proper context to the vote/election fraud issues. Not only has he failed to educate Americans about the works of Bev Harris and Collier, he’s also failed to educate Americans about Democratic efforts to address voting systems that shouldn’t be trusted. (See Rush Holt, Tulsi Gabbard, Elizabeth Warren).

  86. Stirling S Newberry

    There are two hidden problems in the Democratic Party.

    One is that the base of the party was, for a long time, racist. Not the dog whistle sort, as might be found in the anti-Obama movement, but the unreconstructed sort on display in the coup. This was seen, for example, in the Congresses after the Second World War led from the South where LBJ came from. So when someone says that they are a “New Deal” sort of Democrat, realize they are an upstart in the party.

    The second point is that there are two streams of politics on display in the party: localism and nationalism. These are often in conflict – the local party and the national party have different problems. Right now, in the Democratic Party, there are some elements the would go much farther in collectivizing the economy, whereas the national party is about business, and large business particularly.

  87. nihil obstet

    NL: Blog comment sections don’t work the way we wish they would. Thoughtful, fact-based comments are generally ignored, while inflammatory nonsense will produce gushers of equal nonsense.

  88. Stirling S Newberry

    On number 2:
    Sadly so.

  89. Plague Species

    Can we have a moment of silence please? The handsome debonaire tycoon Sheldon Adelbalm has passed from the realm. Cause of death is Trumpism.×400.jpg

  90. Plague Species

    I thought Rosa’s comment was excellent. It was so good, what could I possibly add that wouldn’t serve to detract from it? That being said, I will never, and I mean never, unify with the far right let alone the right. Never. At this late stage, there is simply no room for the right or far right. My focus is on the class war and that group of turds will never see it that way, therefore they are a detractor and an enemy.

  91. KT Chong

    Oh yeah, Sheldon Adelson is ded.

    Actually, the week since the attempted and failed coup on Capitol Hill has so far turned out to be a week full of winning for the left.

  92. NL

    nihil obstet

    Can’t I dream it?

    If one agrees, one has to live it, no?

  93. GlassHammer

    Stirling S Newberry,

    I don’t think the hidden problems are racism and national vs. regional conflict.

    Remember, in the 1970s the two parties gave two different pitches to the middle class once it was decided that de-industrialization was going to happen and workers were going to lose power. The Democrats said “Yeah de-industrialization is going to happen but you can work in the “knowledge economy” once you get a degree (with the help of student loans) and then you will become wealthy.” The Republicans said “Yeah de-industrialization is going to happen but we are going to cut taxes, safety nets, and remove all the things that made our rickety society function because those things are what keeps you from becoming wealthy.”

    So now it’s 2008 and both sales pitches are shown to be untenable.
    What do they do?

    Well the Republicans said “Hey its non-Americans both internal and external to the country that are to blame so let’s keep them from messing things up either by expelling them or containment/restriction.” The Democrats said “Hey its those dummies/racists who won’t get with the program of college education and “knowledge economy” that are to blame so let’s keep them from messing things up either by expelling them or containment/restriction.”

    So it’s 2021 and the last sales pitch didn’t work either.
    What do they do?

    Well it looks like the Republicans are saying “It is the Government itself that is to blame so let’s keep them from messing things up either by expelling them or containment/restriction.” And it’s looks like the Democrats are saying “It is those anti-government crazies that is to blame so let’s keep them from messing things up either by expelling them or containment/restriction.”

  94. Stirling S Newberry


    The treads have gone from your tires if you can’t see how a national party is trying to pitch there programs to local areas.

  95. Stephen

    Speaking of de platforming, Thomas Golladay is starting to make your comments section unreadable.

  96. GlassHammer

    “The treads have gone from your tires if you can’t see how a national party is trying to pitch there programs to local areas.” – Stirling S Newberry

    First, they take distinctly local characteristics if they take at all and there is a chasm between small regional and big national.

    Second, the sales pitch at the big national level isnt very good (which is why I took the time to write it out) and that is a problem for the small regional level.

    Third, “tread gone from my tires” …… you know for all your good ideas you are insufferable and taxing to engage with. Think this will be the last time I do. Best of luck to you and yours.

  97. Hugh

    Yesterday the Trumpers were loud and desperate. They are a lot quieter today. They don’t have a lot to work with. Trump is off his favorite social media, but he could still make a comprehensive statement addressing what happened on Jan. 6, even apologizing for any part he might have played in it. But this is the game we always get sucked into with Trump. Almost any of us can come up with ways that were available to Trump to reduce tensions and reduce the pressure to impeach. And we all know that Trump is completely incapable of doing any of them. Yesterday all Trump supporters got was a couple of terse, lame statements that everything he did was “appropriate.” Try to come up with any kind of rousing defense out of that. So what we have seen this morning in the House is a few Republicans trying to play a hand with no cards in it. Some procedural quibbles, offers of censure instead of impeachment, calls for a unity that Trumpists have never had a use for up to now. So Trump will be impeached again. And Republicans voting for it in the House will make it easier for Senators to convict. The odds of conviction are still low, but are improving. And if 20 Republican Senators decided not to show up for the vote, it would only take 54 to convict.

  98. Willy

    Ye shall know them not only by their fruits, but also by the fruits which sustains them.

    For example, Steve Bannon was funded by the conservative billionaire Mercer family (now Pool is). When that got cut off during his “sloppy Steve” phase, he secured funding by skimming donations off his We Build The Wall organization. As if Mexico would ever pay the donors back.

    Consider also any conservative spiritual leaders like Paula White or Kenneth Copeland. Populist conservatism is as much big business (more accurately big grifting) as it is a movement, with the faithful as their product. For every Soros on the left, there are dozens of Wilks brothers on the right. People like Gates or Bezos are more elite centrists, globalists all.

  99. Astrid

    Stephen: You have my sympathies. Life on the internet must be very hard for those who haven’t learned the scroll. I guess that’s why so many on the so called left want trigger warnings on everything and welcome BigTech censorship, to make the world a safe space for them.

    I don’t agree with most of what Thomas Golliday said, but I appreciate him sharing his information set even if I don’t agree with his sources or conclusions. He’s relatively well behaved and responds to critical comments in apparent good faith. This seems to be better conduct than some of his critics.

  100. Willy

    Thomas Golliday wants us to march with Nazis who smear feces on Capitol walls.

    BigTech censorship is an outgrowth of economic conservatism. Unchecked monopolies only care about one thing – the continued flow of money toward themselves. And being in league with feces smearing Nazis hasn’t been popularized enough to ensure that.

  101. Astrid

    The word “Nazi” isn’t terribly meaningful when you’re talking about people who are likely to be funded, albeit covertly, by supporters of the Israeli apartheid state.

    I haven’t bothered to read much about the alleged activities of the Capitol hill riot, but overall it seems significantly less violent and calculated than the coups that US, under both Republicans and Democrats, have supported abroad. It’s also not substantially different from what several state capitols have experienced for months. So your equating their actions as particularly being the pale and outside scope of internet based dialog is unconvincing.

  102. Hugh

    It is wrong to associate Trump with nazis. For that, Trump would have to say in the face of the violence of white supremacists that there are good people on both sides, or suck up to the Proud Boys and tell them to stand down but stand by. His supporters would have to wear Camp Auschwitz and 6 million are not enough slogans on their clothing as they attacked the Capitol. He would have to be a hero of the Boogaloo Boys. You know that sort of thing.

  103. NR

    Not every Trump supporter is a Nazi, but every Nazi in America is a Trump supporter.

  104. Willy

    Astrid, I wouldn’t expect you to be convinced by the obvious.

    Money and power. Dirty politics for the sake of money and power involves weaving webs of deceptions. So yeah, I tend to distrust anybody who tries to obfuscate things which should be obvious., like my mama telling me to never march with Nazis.

  105. Trinity

    Re: the problem of designing a replacement system for the broken one we have and why it is so difficult? The main problem is hierarchical organization. 2500 years ago, Plato tells us that fascism always follows democracy. Democracy is a band aid for hierarchical societies. In hierarchies there are always “betters” who never suffer during a famine in the way the little people suffer. Democracy is designed and imposed to ensure the elites suffer in other ways (we won’t vote for your fat posterior, you let us starve, you lose). Democracy is a system to ensure the elites are interested in what the little people think. We here in the US obviously do not live in a democracy, and haven’t for some time. Ian has mentioned this several times: the current system is set up so they never feel the effects of anything. That’s by design. We can all agree on this, at least.

    After the “fall”, this cycle of organizing a “new” hierarchical society begins, then a famine hits or similar type of disaster where little people suffer or die, the elites won’t help, democracy is born, the elites answer to someone again, eventually the elites find a way to subvert democracy, a fascist arises, the elites fight amongst themselves, no one “wins”, and the whole cycle begins again. Every democracy (required because, ya know, hierarchy) is eventually subverted to again disconnect the elites from any feedback. Capitalism by its nature requires a hierarchy, reinforces hierarchical thinking (I have a late model car, and you don’t. I’m better, more important, than you). This is why this society is also so spiritually empty … without meaning to life beyond acquiring things which never, ever, fill the void … lather, rinse, repeat.

    It’s almost impossible to imagine a society without a hierarchy, just as it is almost impossible to imagine a society in which women are treated as equals (and please don’t tell me we are.) We’ve only been allowed to vote for 100 years and to read for a few hundred more in Western culture.

    So yes, it’s almost impossible to imagine a non-hierarchical, fully egalitarian society. Some of these societies still survive today, although they are in significant decline. They are usually referred to (by Western Europeans, Asians, etc.) as “savages”. They limit possessions, and personal ownership, which is the sticking point for greedy wannabe millionaires. And there is a very valid point whether such a cultural organization is even possible at current population levels.

    Yet, the best possible scenario is still non-hierarchical, egalitarian, and democratic (by desire, not necessity).

    The point being, don’t just “think globally, act locally” but “think long-term, act short-term”. And this thinking should be focused on what really matters: breaking this cycle. Then we can act in a way in which we might preserve such thinking.

  106. NL

    nihil obstet
    “while inflammatory nonsense will produce gushers of equal nonsense.”

    At times I wonder whether a thoughtful comment triggers a myriad of AI bots to generate prolific conversations of nothing but nonsense to immediately bury the nugget of truth and restore the thought matrix. Someone would say “unicorns do not exist” and this would immediately trigger bot discussions in pairs and in groups: “uh, unicorns pollute our political discourse with their excrement and only mermaid can save us” and then “but no mermaids are complete socialists, we need pro business unicorns”, “unicorns want to dictate to mermaids what they can do with their bodies”…

    But the true is probably that the flow of nonsense is the same overwhelming all the time ocean over which you are drifting and drifting away…

  107. Willy

    I think of Dwight D Eisenhower, who famously said in his farewell address:

    In the councils of government, we must guard against the acquisition of unwarranted influence, whether sought or unsought, by the military-industrial complex.

    Yet… a interstate highway system for military transport first and commerce second? The replacement of a democratically elected Guatemalan government with a dictatorship favorable to American fruit companies? Expensive Titan missile bases which went obsolete in two years?

    Please explain Astrid.

  108. NL

    “Plato tells us that fascism always follows democracy.”

    Where does Plato says this? pardon my curiosity, thank you.

  109. Hugh

    Another 4,000 died from covid yesterday. We are up to 382,000 dead. We’ll be at 400,000 dead by Inauguration Day, a week away. Two impeachments, tens of thousands of lies, daily scandals and outrages, an insurrection, a greatly weakened country, and 400,000 dead: this is the Trump legacy.

  110. Willy

    Worse than the Trump legacy is tens of millions who worship him as a messenger from God. Maybe the message is “Never let a psychopath attain great power”.

  111. Hugh

    Plato was anti-democratic. Socrates described by Plato favored ideally rule by a philosopher king or more practically an aristocracy. Socrates thought democracy would be followed by tyranny.

  112. Hugh

    To be filed under too little too late, in a short written statement from Trump released today to FoxNews:

    “In light of reports of more demonstrations, I urge that there must be NO violence, NO lawbreaking and NO vandalism of any kind. That is not what I stand for, and it is not what America stands for. I call on ALL Americans to help ease tensions and calm tempers. Thank You”

    So everything’s good. All fixed. That insurrection thing was just a bad dream. Everybody can go home now.

  113. Astrid

    All your recounting of GOP and Trump supporter some would be meaningful if they deviate from substantially from the norm since 9/11. Otherwise it sounds to me (who has given up on both side of the uniparty and US’s ability to affect positive
    change at home or abroad), like two groups of sports fans eagerly denigrating the other side as the worst people. Even on COVID, Trump is awful but not uniquely awful, as the performance of India, Brazil, UK, Sweden, etc shows. And remember that plenty died of AIDS under Fauci and Reagan/BushI. Your analysis would be more interesting if it didn’t just start and end with”orange man bad”.

  114. DMC

    If Trump is a Nazi, he is a damn strange one, inasmuch as he can almost certainly tell you what netanyahu’s dick taste like. See for instance, the new US embassy in Jerusalem.

  115. different clue


    Somebody or other is making this comment section unreadable? Well, as Astrid said, God made a scroll button.

  116. NL


    Where did Plato say that? I have read some Plato (not much may be) and I did not see it. I want to go to the part that miss and read it again.

    Thank you

  117. Astrid

    You all are outraged by essentially the same thing that Trumpers have been doing all of last summer against state capitols, which was bad but the national Democrats had no interest in condemning them or helping the state governors with their situation. They’re actions that could and should have been contained by proper policing, but wasn’t.

    Meanwhile, Biden is signaling a great expansion of the surveillance state, which I find substantially more dangerous than a differently placed riot that you all had little problem with last summer.

  118. Willy


    Why Trumps covid stats outperform India, Brazil, and Russia combined should be obvious. Why Sweden’s covid stats outperform Norway, Denmark and Finland combined should be obvious. That conservatives are better at walking in lockstep and progressives better at debating should be obvious. Why faith based conservatives can be driven to cult-like reasoning should be obvious. Finally, why “orange man bad” should be obvious. These things have nothing whatsoever to do with “sports teams”, the fandom from which should be obvious.

    Any mind which cannot discern the obvious is disordered and/or immature.

  119. Willy

    For gods sake DMC, just because Trump cares nothing for Nazis doesn’t mean that he isn’t capable of using them for his own purposes.

  120. Astrid

    It’s obvious to me that these things are bad. What’s not so obvious to me is why you think your team is meaningfully different. And if they are not meaningfully different, why fixate on the one bad and support the other bad?

  121. BlizzardOfOzzz

    Not every Trump supporter is a Nazi, but every Nazi in America is a Trump supporter.

    It’s not exactly clear what to be a “Nazi” means nowadays, unless a cosplay enthusiast or an FBI agent, but … the costumed fatties behind Charlottesville (Richard Spencer et al) do not like Trump at all.

  122. Hugh

    From book VIII of Plato’s Republic:

    “see how sensitive the citizens become; they chafe impatiently at the least touch of authority, and at length, as you know, they cease to care even for the laws, written or unwritten; they will have no one over them.
    Yes, he said, I know it too well.
    Such, my friend, I said, is the fair and glorious beginning out of which springs tyranny.
    Glorious indeed, he said. But what is the next step?
    The ruin of oligarchy is the ruin of democracy; the same disease magnified and intensified by liberty overmasters democracy—the truth being that the excessive increase of anything often causes a reaction in the opposite direction; and this is the case not only in the seasons and in vegetable and animal life, but above all in forms of government.
    The excess of liberty, whether in States or individuals, seems only to pass into excess of slavery.
    Yes, the natural order.
    And so tyranny naturally arises out of democracy, and the most aggravated form of tyranny and slavery out of the most extreme form of liberty?
    As we might expect.”

  123. Hugh

    As we have been seeing for more than four years, Trump has no interest in consistency. Pursuing an outlandishly pro-Israel policy, on the one hand, and sucking up to anti-semitic white supremacists is kid stuff for him. I mean this is a guy who is supposed to be for the working man and whose only major accomplishment in office was a trillion dollar tax cut for the rich.

  124. Jack

    Some might see Trump as being the useful idiot of Chabad-Lubavitach. But then Jared looks so neat and harmless.

  125. Astrid

    What Nazi means in modern day US is far from clear, both by people who might self identify as such (not sure they really exist outside prisons and biker gangs) and especially people on the internet calling the other side the argument Nazis.

    I will note that Obama administration, with the support of the vast majority of national Democratic party politicians and chattering class, did support Ukrainian nationalists who espoused ideas pretty similar to Hitler’s original flavor. I’m sure Hugh and company wagged their fingers at some point at this action, but they continue to support the DNC team afterwards.

    So again, I am not getting the difference of why one side is so monstrous and your side is regrettable but must be supported. I happen to think both sides are monstrous being redemption. I don’t have a solution (other than not have kids and enjoy the time i have the best I can) but I’m not going to pretend the solution is calling anonies on the internet Nazis.

  126. Mark Level

    Ian’s comments, and especially the closer, are relevant and dead on as usual. And I note the closer was not “Orange Man Bad” like a Trumpist claimed, it was to “be prepared” for the “UGLY” times ahead, which many of us have already been working on. (I should be out of my expensive urban center and in a clean, safer rural space in 6 months– I assume I’m safe for that long to transition, but guess we will see.)

    Yes, “chickens coming home to roost” for the Empire right now, the frontier is closing in, it won’t be so much us killing the Venezuelan & Iranian “savages” who dare to think they can run there own societies, as each other. Even some of the MSM note that Herr Drumpf (but, as the more sophisticated know, every bit as much a symptom of the Obama-era NeoLiberal vacuity and NOPEy Change, as an additional accelerent, literally) has led us to the brink of something like a Civil War.

    Trinity’s overview of political change I thought is solid, and as usual Hugh’s comments are clarifying and helpful. I’m going to disagree with Che Pasa, I think the Congress critters ARE very privileged and very far from the Precariat, my sense is that most of them are upper-level bourgeois, either spouses of or themselves business owners, and comfortable enough to want to manage their lessers’ affairs and, oh well, if they benefit a bit economically thereby, that’s the system, right? There may be exceptions in some of the Tea Party/Trump caucus (I stumbled across militia-gal Boebert’s criminal rap sheet today) who are the same kind of trash who supported Mussolini and German fascism. They know no better than volkish culture, and that’s how they get elected.

    To Ian’s bigger point– I listened to hours of the Congressional “debate” today, and at times it actually rose to the level not to need the air quotes. (Not many, admittedly, but more than the usual 0%.) I said a lot to folks when Covid kicked in, “Shit got real.” And I think even for the Ruling Class, Shit Got Real with the gibbering QAnon goons howling for blood, including Mike Pence’s, just hundreds of feet from where they were guarded. There were numerous non-white Reps openly noting Trump’s white supremacist and irrational violent drives . . . .the split in the RePugs was fascinating. You had the ones calling on their (fake) opposition Dems to “unify”, pretend the planned lynchings never happened and hold Trump to no account, which pretty much all the Dems deviated from the usual script and refused to do. As to the QAnon crew, we got to hear Gym (molester) Jordan, Matt Gaetz and that ilk calling for more blood, with blood in their face. It’s all because Maxine Waters said Repugs should be publicly shamed for making brown children orphans and throwing them in cages, our fee-fees were hurt and you Elitists (guilty as charged, but pot and kettle) ignored our hurt!! Sarah Huckabee was kicked out of a restaurant, and that is true fascism!!

    Both political parties are dead husks. I keep expecting them to die, yet as Real as Shit now is, they survive through apathy and American consumers (there are few if any American “citizens”) self-accepted dis-empowerment and fat-assed media consuming laziness. But I think Trump HAS finally toxically split the RePugs. The base is clearly all QAnon, Golladay-level worshipers of the Leader, but even the big corporate PACs seem to be realizing that funding these morons might not work out any better than it did for the 30s German bourgeoisie.

    I fully expect Biden should and will ruin the Dem brand beyond even what the empty, soothing Obama could paper over, by doing nothing to ameliorate the widespread economic and cultural collapse that Covid and Globalism have created. I hear the Dems may (?) throw some symbolic scraps to the hoi polloi early on, like $2000 checks and forgiveness of some of the (Biden-generated) permanent college debt for their young voters. The question being whether in 2 years that will result in votes and Dem continuation? Color me skeptical.

    Anyway, until shit really breaks down much further there will be no actual Left policies, the government’s purpose will remain to prop up the FIRE sector, business, etc. same as it ever was. But since none of the swag goes to the increasingly precarious, miserable masses, eventually some violence and at least the prospect of US break-up or (counter?) revolutions rules.

  127. nihil obstet

    “Nazi” is the adult term for “boogeyman”. To the people who use it most, it simply means monster. They don’t know enough history to understand what it is. It has been incorporated into mainstream propaganda because Nazis were the enemy in the last major war that the U.S. won. The story of that war carefully cuts out the Soviet Union which has a better claim to having won the war than the Western allies. Nazi has become shorthand for “someone the American rulers want to destroy”.

  128. Hugh

    Well, nazi also means things like white supremacist, hate the blacks, the browns, and the Jews, ultranationalist, and leader cult.

  129. DMC

    Willy, I never said he was incapable of using Nazis, just that he wasn’t really one himself. A reactionary populist nationalist certainly. That he got way too much money from Sheldon adelson to be considered anything like a Nazi. Of course there’s one group who’s all about the lebensraum for the Volk that he supports unhesitatingly.

  130. NL

    Hi Hugh,

    That’s Jowett.

    Here’s Allan Bloom:
    “The same disease” I said “as that which arose in the oligarchy and destroyed it, arises also in this regime – but bigger and stronger as a result of the license – and enslaves democracy. And, really, anything that is done to excess is likely to provoke a corresponding great change in the opposite direction – in seasons, in plants, in bodies, and, in particular, not least in regimes”

    “that’s probable” he said

    “Too much freedom seems to change into nothing but too much slavery, both for private man and city”

    “Well, then, I said “tyranny is probably established out of no other regime than democracy, I suppose – the greatest and most savage slavery out of extreme of freedom”.

    Sounds like he is talking about a pendulum that swings between freedom and slavery and democracy and tyranny. If we take “the regime” as a thinking of Plato, then Book VII and beginning of book VIII suggest that Plato was a communist and his purpose was to discredit all other regimes. The city must be ruled in the interest of all citizens by those who feel no desire for material possessions and only enjoy intellectual pursuits.

    Anyway, that was a reason dust off my copy of the regime.

  131. BlizzardOfOzzz

    Ah, well — there it is from the horse’s mouth. Nazi doesn’t mean things like totalitarian control of society, ideological suppression of speech, corporations and government working in lockstep, locking up your racial and ideological enemies in concentration camps. No, it just means who-whom: if you’re white, you’re a Nazi.

    And Hugh, I know that truth burns your mouth and ears like acid, but Trump saying there were “good people on both sides in Charlottesville” is just the simple truth. Plenty of good people (probably most of them) oppose communist filth desecrating our historical monuments.

  132. Willy

    BOO, it seems like yesterday that “Nazi” meant you were socialist. Is Dinesh back in jail again?

  133. Willy

    It’s obvious to me that these things are bad. What’s not so obvious to me is why you think your team is meaningfully different. And if they are not meaningfully different, why fixate on the one bad and support the other bad?

    So what team do you think I’m on? Do you even care? I fixate on the “bad” because it’s gone way past being the more ruthless and street smart side. Steve Bannon correctly accused the DNC “of having pillow fights” while his side “goes for the head shot”. Did he even have to say that? Isn’t it common knowledge how “unity” and “conciliatory” the worthless DNC is? But that was yesterday. These days the GOP is trending into fascist territory with the DNC moving into their former “center right” position, because of “unity” and a little corporate donor coin I suppose.

    I believe in loyal opposition, an intelligently loyal opposition. Devils advocates. I grow tired of brainwashed idiocy. Do you need me to point out examples, of this brainwashed idiocy of which I speak?

  134. Astrid

    Meh. The Democrats are a lot further along than just occupying the portion of the Overton Windows formerly inhabited by 1980s Republicans. They’re a creative source for suffering and bad policy, working for exactly the same paymasters are the GOP.

    And maybe I’m wrong here, but the group that shout right wing troll at first provocation are also the ones who equate non-support of Democrats come election time with helping Trump.

    As long as they’re not too disruptive, I like seeing comments from those with other opinions. I don’t agree with them, but they’re conveying views shared by many IRL. Knowledge about them learnt here helps me assess their sort in real life. And seeing self proclaimed progressives resort to ad hominems and suffering TDS meltdowns, while not recognizing that their team is pretty much just as bad, just rubs me the wrong way.

    I may be feeling a bit of extra charity as Trump decided on this stupid stunt in lieu of invading Iran or sinking a Chinese cruiser in the South China Sea. I never expect Trump or Republicans or Democrats to do a good thing. The best I can hope for is that Trump fumbles and fail to do a bad thing correctly, though I know he did plenty of bad with bipartisan support. I harbor no such hope of ineptitude by Normals and their merry band of neoliberal economists and warmongers.

  135. someofparts

    astrid – “As long as they’re not too disruptive, I like seeing comments from those with other opinions. I don’t agree with them, but they’re conveying views shared by many IRL. Knowledge about them learnt here helps me assess their sort in real life. And seeing self proclaimed progressives resort to ad hominems and suffering TDS meltdowns, while not recognizing that their team is pretty much just as bad, just rubs me the wrong way.”

    Me too. These days I’m grateful to the crew at Rising for being an oasis with a format designed to moderate that kind of thing. I like hearing from Saagar who has contacts in Republican circles all over D.C. and I am glad that Krystal calls out Democrats like Hillary from the war crimes wing of the party.

    But even before Rising showed up it had gotten to the point that I had the World Socialist and American Conservative websites bookmarked because I found important stories on both of them that were not getting talked about anywhere else. Since then, of course, Taibbi has become the go-to guy to explain what shifted in the media business model to cause the changes I had noticed in my own reading.

  136. someofparts

    If covid and its endlessly mutating variations become a permanent part of life that will work against the Democrats in two years and four years. Biden had a razor-thin win that seems like it was based on the hope that he would manage the contagion better than Trump did.

    I am certain that he will do that in a large, splashy way, but if no clear final victory against the thing is possible, it will be interesting to see how the people who market his team handle it. How will they persuade us that he is doing the best job possible fighting covid if there is never a decisive victory against it?

  137. different clue


    If millions of militant backwardite stupidite MAGAtard virus-ridden corona-leper germ spreaders insist on spreading the disease as far and wide as they can with their No Mask Freedom rebellion, then it will be impossible to control the disease. Which is exactly what the MAGAtards hope to achieve, on purpose, so we can all join their Jonestown Trumpie Death Cult.

    Now that I think about it, THAT may be the Insurgency that Ian Welsh was warning about. Millions of vicious evil MAGAtard plague spreaders spreading the corona virus around as hard and fast as possible, in hopes that some of it reaches and kills the objects of their hatred.

    Let us pray that the MAGA mob at the capitol spread coronavid among all of themselves and let us hope that they all get coronavid and survive . . . with long tail covid for the rest of their incurably pain and misery racked lives.

    And let us hope that the Mask Discipline States, working together with a Fed Gov which respects the Freedom of the MAGA Death Cultists to suffer and die alone by themselves, can at least stamp out the virus within their own territory.

  138. Willy

    Biden/DNC democracy/plutocracy bad.

    Trump/GOP authoritarianism/psychopathy plutocracy worse.

    There are no easy answers these days. But there’s still the truth.

  139. Astrid

    I am not at all convinced that the Democrats are the lesser evil. Biden and his appointees speak to that. Maybe the more orderly evil, the better branded evil, the evil that lets people who claim to be good liberals sleep at night and stop paying attention to the evil perpetrated in their name. I prefer the ugliness of Trump and his followers, they let their ugliness and evilness hang out in the open, for all to see.

  140. Linda Amick

    The 2.0 Patriot Act bill for domestic terrorism was submitted by Adam Schiff in August, 2019. I wonder how the Dems knew they would need it?

  141. different clue


    ” I will note that Obama administration, with the support of the vast majority of national Democratic party politicians and chattering class, did support Ukrainian nationalists who espoused ideas pretty similar to Hitler’s original flavor. I’m sure Hugh and company wagged their fingers at some point at this action, but they continue to support the DNC team afterwards.”

    The thing I notice is that there were/are some people, including on these threads, who wag their fingers at those of us who don’t wag our fingers hard enough at Putin for saving East Ukrainians and Crimeans from the Hotsie Totsie Banderazi Nazis who were coming to kill them all.

  142. different clue

    @Linda Amick,

    Probably some Democratic lawmakers thought they would need it ever since Charlottesville.

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