The horizon is not so far as we can see, but as far as we can imagine

Rush Limbaugh Escapes The Hell-World He Created

Stirling Newberry explained the concept of a death bet: you bet that the negative consequences of your actions will occur after you are dead. Classically this explains climate change: decision makers who could have stopped it will almost all be dead before it becomes significant.

Rush Limbaugh was one of the most important people in creating the modern right; driving deregulation and spreading hate and racism. It’s impossible to overstate how influential he was in the 90s, not just thru his own radio show, but because other radio hosts copied him. Radio was a BIG deal back then still, and had massive reach.

There aren’t ten people more responsible for America being what it is today than Limbaugh; there may not be five. (Robert Ailes, who ran Fox, is on the list too.)

All of these people died before they suffered from making the US a non-fuctional undeveloping nation. They were protected by their wealth and their power. Limbaugh died rich. Ailes died rich.

Meanwhile, in Texas, utilities deregulation and privatization has lead to vast suffering and death, which, yes, anyone with sense who wasn’t blinded by greed or the world’s stupidest ideology (if we give a lot of money to rich people that’ll be good for us!) knew would happen eventually.

America is divided into two tribes who hate each other. Eliminationist rhetoric is common. The media fans the flames, regularly lying and dividing people against each other.

Limbaugh. His legacy. What he worked hard for all his life. What made him rich. Hate, stupidity and the destruction of his country.

Limbaugh won. He’s dead, he never suffered the consequences of his belief.

But many of you, dear readers, will.

Men like Limbaugh at the enemies of all good people; all decent people. So are those who funded him and pushed him. So is every Texas utility executive; every member of the board, and every single politician who pushed deregulation, privatization and policies which increased climate change.

They sold your future; your lives; your children’s lives, so they could live well and be rich. This includes Pelosi and Biden, both of whom were very important in creating this world.

They’re going to die, never having faced the consequences of the evil they have done. You, on the other hand, if you’re not old and cushioned by wealth, will.

A functioning society would throw all these people in jail and take all their money and power. America? Canada? Britain?

We re-elect them and make sure they get richer and richer.

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Texas Lessons For Preparing For The Ongoing Collapse


  1. mago

    If one believes in karma and the hell realms it is certain that Rush and his ilk will suffer immensely for a time beyond reckoning. I take no satisfaction from that although I held great anger for that gargoyle back in the day. Such strong negative emotion serves no purpose and could catch up with you. Anyway, adiós Rush baby. Too bad your garbage keeps getting recycled.

  2. edmondo

    I am beginning to wonder if the elites really know what they are doing. Between Covid and the disgrace down in Texas the powers that are don’t even pretend to give the slightest fuck about anyone beneath them. Our “Let them eat cake” moment is rapidly approaching.

    The Deplorables have nothing to lose. That’s a dangerous position to put people in.

  3. NR

    Rush Limbaugh had a segment on his show called “AIDS update” set to music where he mocked dying gay people. He was a gigantic piece of shit and the world is better off without him. The fact that he was a hero to American right-wingers says so, so much about them.

  4. different clue

    “We” re-elect them? Well, somebody does.

    Given what’s coming, a weekly Saturday Survivalism thread could be a good thing, if people will load it up with real value.

    I also begin to think that Wikrent’s Sunday Round-up might be a good place to put thoughts and maybe even info about how millions of unhappy campers might wage a leaderless distributed “scorched earth economic combat” long war against the people Rush Limbaugh served and advanced. Can millions of us each do millions of little things guided by a big shared understanding in order to make THEIR hard times even harder than OUR hard times?

  5. Stirling S Newberry

    Rush Limbaugh was one of the names who would possibly win the death bet. I have nothing else that is good to say about him.

  6. Willy

    Had he been more of a man he would’ve stated that if his smoking killed him then it was his free will choice and he’d take personal responsibility and be fine with it. Instead, he regularly ridiculed the idea of getting cancer from smoking. Nuf said.

  7. different clue

    Kurt Saxon, the self-styled ” Grandfather of Survivalism” wrote an article called ” The Truth About Rush Limbaugh”. He did not approve of Rush Limbaugh.

    I have not been able to find it anywhere over the last few years. But if someone can find it, it is worth bringing here so people can read it.

    All I can find so far is this tiny bit of quoted text from someone else’s article about Kurt Saxon.

    “Rush mastered telling Conservatives what they want to hear. His stock in trade is hope. That’s all he gives his audience and it’s false hope, which prevents action on an individual’s behalf. He concentrates on national problems and directs his comments to those locked into the system. If the system goes, they go with it. Most of them are unable to adapt to any sort of self-sufficient lifestyle.
    So what Rush has going for him now, and growing, is simply a cult patterned on the John Birch Society. Useless to the member but quite profitable to the cult leader.

    The fact is that most conspiracies are made up by people like Rush to scare the helpless into supporting them. This gives false hope to those who are aware enough to seek alternatives to a lifestyle they stand to lose. Rush is certainly aware. I can tell from listening to him that he has an excellent frame of reference and so must know that this Disneyland for dummies is about to close down and doom most of his “ditto heads”.

    I’ve never heard him discuss self-sufficiency as such. Nor have I heard him discuss anything important from the standpoint of individual effort as opposed to ineffectual group protest. He undoubtedly has as part of his audience, some of the best of our species. If he was as free and outspoken as he boasts, he could urge this segment of his audience to learn the self-reliance of their ancestors, just in case. But he’s neither free nor outspoken. His advertisers permit him to denounce the bureaucracy. This is always safe, no matter how radical it may seem.”

  8. Hugh

    Limbaugh was a carny who sold lies, hate, and personal attacks. He wasn’t interested in making anything better for anyone other than himself. As long as he got his cut, he didn’t care.

  9. Ray Saunders

    Posted the following on FB today:

    Been re-reading Joe Bageant’s “Rainbow Pie” which ends on a somber and prescient note:

    “I have rattled on as such length about underclass political consciousness because [it] represents a new development in which the white underclass plays a pivotal role. It feels to me like a build-up to an incitement of violence – if not now, then someday not far off – that will either be purposefully managed or will erupt spontaneously. There is an odor of fascism and nascent brownshirts about”.

    Rainbow Pie was published in 2010.

  10. @ different clue,

    A very different writer, Matt Savinar, wrote about Limbaugh (and others) on the now defunct LATOC forum a few years ago. Might be of interest:


    A while back, a well-meaning LATOC reader emailed me to ask why I cracked a joke about Amy Goodman in which I derisively referred to her as a corporate Alpha-Female in disguise, or something along those lines. I attempted to explain what her true role in the petroleum-banking matrix is but I think this interview sums it up. Thomas Friedman is pro-globalization, pro-war, pro-corporate America, etc.

    In my opinion, Goodman’s niche within the petroleum-banking matrix is to keep the 1%-5% of the population that considers themselves “dissidents” invested within what Jeffery Brown calls the “iron triangle” formed by the media, housing, and banking industries.

    Now don’t get me wrong, I’d prefer 30 minutes of Amy Goodman over 30 minutes of Rush Limbaugh any day of the week but I’m not a fool. Limbaugh’s niche is to keep a certain (perhaps) 25%-to-33% of the population who identify themselves as “conservative” squarely trapped within the iron triangle. The Al Frankens and Randi Rhodes of the world exist to keep the 25-to-33% of the population who identify themselves as “liberal” trapped within the iron triangle. Goodman exists to keep the 2.5-3.3% of the population who identify themselves as “radicals” or “dissidents” within the iron triangle.

    I’ve been to the suburban homes of people who listen to Limbaugh, Franken, and Goodman respectively. To be quite frank, somebody from Mars would not be able to distinguish the listener of one show from the listener of another. They all had the following:

    1. Moderate to severe weight problem(s)
    2. Giant mortgages on overbubbled homes
    3. Two or more cars in the garage/driveway
    4. Jobs they either hated or were indifferent to
    5. Neighbors they did not know
    6. Multiple credit cards they were carrying balances on

    The only differences were superficial. The Goodman listener might have a hybrid with a Che Guevara bumper sticker where the the Limbaugh listener has an SUV with a “W” sticker but, in the end, their respective lifestyles were far more similar than different. They’re just located in within different corners and/or opposite sides of the “iron triangle.”

    I’ve never seen or heard anything on DN that would have helped the listener/viewer deal with numbers one-through-six listed above. The best I could tell, these things would vaguely be solved by getting some slightly greened-up Democrats into office.

  11. Zachary Smith

    Kurt Saxon is still living. It would be nice of somebody could locate him and get his updated thoughts on Rush “druggie” Limpaugh. Bet it would be interesting!

  12. S Brennan

    Rush Limbaugh’s influence died alongside the dead & wounded young men who went to Iraq/ AF-PAK. Not a single person I met on my travels today in “red” America knew of his death, nor cared.

    Rural/Red America long ago turn it’s back to boosters of George [the 2nd] Bush, Dick Cheney…their toadies like Rush, CNN, Newsweek, Time, NYTimes, WaPo et al.

    …and let’s not forget the afterbirth of George [the 2nd], Obama/Biden/Hillary.

    But, like so many objective facts these days, the news of this political sea change in 2005/6 has yet to reach the “Blue no matter Who” crowd. Let’s just call it what my HS English teacher did..”a studied ignorance”.

    God Bless you Ms Stone…for immunizing me from much of this ignorance, this ceaseless river of callowness that has overflowed it banks…each year, in ever increasing inundations.

    BTW, if anybody is going to win a “death bet” it’s Stirling with his Russia, Russia, RUSSIA shit.

  13. anon

    I read somewhere last year from a liberal, forgot the name, that he had known Rush Limbaugh early in his radio career before his rise to fame in the 90s. The liberal said that Limbaugh was, on a personal level, a nice guy and was surprised at what he had become.

    I don’t know why anyone should be surprised. Every murderer has had someone – a romantic partner, parent, sibling, child, or friend – that they were nice to and loved. That would include Obama, the Clintons, the Bushes, and Biden who I hear are all pleasant people to be around if you are wealthy enough to befriend them.

    I’m not sure if Limbaugh, like Tucker Carlson and Rachel Maddow, would have bought into their own bullshit before they became rich and famous. Glenn Greenwald said as much when he was friends with Maddow at the time when she sounded like a progressive at Air America Radio. They all sold their souls to become partisan hacks and create a more divided America for a multimillion-dollar paycheck. Plenty of people would do the same if given the opportunity.

    Follow the money to understand why any person or organization has taken a specific stance on an issue. You’ll find your answer when you find out the entities that are lining their pockets.

  14. Chicago Clubs

    >He undoubtedly has as part of his audience, some of the best of our species.

    I sure as hell doubt it.

  15. Ted Bundy

    I’m a swell guy. Just ask the ladies.

  16. Hugh

    anon, back in the day, Glenn Greenwald was a “more and better Democrats” kind of guy with libertarian streaks. A progressive not so much. I never really forgave him for sitting on the Snowden files the way he did. Or hooking up with the billionaire Omidyar on the Intercept. Seems like Maddow wasn’t the only one selling out, huh, Glenn? Now, I see him as not much more than a Tucker Carlson wannabe.

  17. NR

    Rural/Red America long ago turn it’s back to boosters of George [the 2nd] Bush, Dick Cheney…their toadies like Rush,

    Rush Limbaugh still had over 15 million listeners, so no, rural/red America did not turn its back on him. He was still very popular with American right-wingers. And Trump gave him the Presidential Medal of Freedom just last year.

  18. different clue

    @Dermot M O Connor,

    Thanks. And very interesting. And depressing in its own way. If your figures are correct, then anywhere from 51-71 percent of Americans are self-trapped behind the Iron Triangle Curtain.

    Which means that anywhere from 29-49 percent of Americans are either brain-trapped in some different Iron Triangle, or are not brain-trapped in that sense at all. While it is saddening to think that only a minority are not inside the Iron Triangles you specify, it is still a lot of people. Who are they? What is their brain-home, if any?

    By the way, I can’t be sure any more but I think I remember Idleworm having been linked to some years ago by Ran Prieur in one of his posts.

    @Chicago Clubs,

    I only quote what Saxon wrote.

    America is a big enough country that it could still have a lot of Limbaugh listeners and Limbaugh leavers both.

  19. different clue

    Here’s a funny little ” dead Rush” meme.

    But here is a plea to show more grace and dignity and kindness to Rush and his bereaved Survivors . . .

  20. Jeremy

    Ian – that really is a very succinct summation of Limbaugh.

    Better yet, just – “He was pure evil”.

    And hopefully you’ll soon be able to replace ‘Rush Limbagh’ with ‘Mike Savage’.
    Another monster.

  21. different clue*/

    That “may” be the link to the Wayback Machine legacy archive of Kurt Saxon material.
    Let’s find out . . .

  22. Plague Species

    Hugh, about The Intercept, they allow all manner of racist commentary at that venue from right wing trolls and yet in the commentary to an article about a pork processing company, I mentioned Blimpblow’s death because he’s a fat pig, or was a fat pig, so it was appropriate and on topic. They censored my commentary. It was up for about an hour and then they took it down. I’m convinced the right wing trolls who troll that place and who have free rein to do so, are in fact Omidyar and his libertarian Silicon Valley friends. They do it for shits and giggles because to them life is but a joke. Critical commentary about Blimpblow is disrespectful, afterall. The Intercept showing its true colors despite the drama of Greenwald leaving because he was/is allegedly at odds with them.

  23. Plague Species

    Speaking of Greenwald and Caitlin Johnson, I await their scathing rebukes of Rush Limbaugh’s legacy. I won’t hold my breath, though. Instead, they’ll comment on the “liberal” reaction to Blimpblow’s death because that’s their gravy train schtick.

  24. Joan

    Someone mentioned up-thread how the little guy could make the elites suffer just as much.

    One way is to not give them your money. You could look at your payment streams and see which of them take your hard-earned cash and send it up a pyramid to a billionaire. I personally was willing to give up certain aspects of the first-world modern lifestyle just to stick it to the man in my own small way. Gradually shifting your purchases to be local can do a lot. Of course these people can still get rich off monopoly money, but that’s not something a regular person can change.

  25. Chicago Clubs

    >Now, I see him as not much more than a Tucker Carlson wannabe.

    All this demonstrates is your own terrible judgment.

  26. Ché Pasa

    In 1984, KFBK radio hired Rush Limbaugh to do his carny act for the legislators, state workers and governor of California, and for the rubes out in Orangevale who could hear his barking madness. He was selling hate and anger, of course, but more than that, he was selling the “counter-narrative” snakeoil, excoriating the radical liberal Democrat communists that ran California, at the time who ran most states and still held power in DC — even if the not-so-conservative Reagan (former California governor) was sitting pretty in the White House.

    Limbaugh was recognized as a clown early on, and he was widely thought to be a joke. But when his fans started harassing and killing people for being not like them (a gay bar was shot up, people identified as “lib-symps” were targeted and threatened, threats against anyone who wasn’t a ditto-head became routine) he was recognized as a clear and present danger, and a movement to get him off the air began, flourished and failed. KFBK not only kept him on, it wasn’t long before his show was nationally syndicated, and Limbaugh’s shtick became a national phenomenon and danger.

    He denied any responsibility for the violence his fans and followers engaged in, and every now and then even seemed to ask them not to do it. But he also defended their anger and frustration. At what? Well, everything. Of course. And in particular the anti-Rush/Ditto-head people who were everywhere, saying things, doing things that Rush didn’t like, wearing funny clothes, eating funny food, doing the nasty with people they didn’t approve of, being “different” and believing things that made Rush and his fans angry.

    Broadcasting took note. Rush’s formula worked and made him and radio stations and their owners LOTS of money. Big, big bucks. A sucker was not only born every minute, they’re created by the gross when clever hucksters like Rush took to the air and spewed falsehoods, hatreds and anger, feeding the Beast that lives in so many men’s and women’s souls. White grievance didn’t begin with Rush — oh no, he was marinated in it from birth — but he gave it a national platform and built castles and counter-worlds of the mind upon it.

    Dozens of imitators came forth, some of them still around, and they made fortunes upon fortunes from the gullibility of those searching desperately for something else again, a different and more comforting view of the world and what was going on.

    This is the power of counter-narrative, the stock in trade of Rush for decades, and of Caitlin Johnstone and of Glenn Greenwald among so many others. What we are told by our betters may all be fictional, but some of it will resonate somewhere with a majority. And some of the counter-narratives can be so powerfully resonant that they become a matters of faith. Feeding deep emotional and psychological needs of some faction of the rabble.

    Rush started something that has a life far beyond him. Narrative and counter-narrative compete in the material world, and power, ultimately, is the goal. As long as there is money to be made from it, nothing much will change.

  27. Feral Finster

    The dharmic religions had to invent the concept of reincarnation, because any fool can see that there is no justice to be had in this lifetime.

  28. Feral Finster

    @edmondo: It seems that we are having a series of Chernobyl moments. Every day is Chernobyl Day.

    Before Chernobyl, everyone already knew that the Soviet government was corrupt, cynical, self-serving and tribal.

    After Chernobyl, the powers of repression were there on full display, but not even the KGB could hide the obvious fact that the government was also manifestly incompetent.

  29. Hugh

    Thank you, Chicago Clubs, for your lengthy and thoughtful defense of Greenwald. You taught many of us who have only followed his career 20 years or so a thing or two. And it is an excellent point that Carlson only has Greenwald on his show so he can disagree with him.

  30. StewartM

    Dermot M O Connor

    I’ve been to the suburban homes of people who listen to Limbaugh, Franken, and Goodman respectively. To be quite frank, somebody from Mars would not be able to distinguish the listener of one show from the listener of another. They all had the following:

    1. Moderate to severe weight problem(s)
    2. Giant mortgages on overbubbled homes
    3. Two or more cars in the garage/driveway
    4. Jobs they either hated or were indifferent to
    5. Neighbors they did not know
    6. Multiple credit cards they were carrying balances on

    I’m not sure I’d agree with these.

    I will say I do have this hypothesis about Limbaugh and his misogyny and his “feminazi” rants. That’s because all the Rush listeners I know *look like him*….overweight, unattractive men (one time I remember Rush railing against scientists as “thin as rails scientists” so I guess he has Bill Nye envy).

    What I think drives this is this—Rush played the mating game by the old rules–become financially successful, while letting your body go to pot (literally) and despite that, the babes (lacking any financial option) will come running to you. Like Hugh Hefner, you’ll be surrounded by Playboy bunnies.

    Instead, feminism allowed women to go out and make their own money, instead of seeking out that rich man. So now successful women can ditch the “Rush option” and instead surround themselves with attractive boytoys, Chippendale look-alikes. Why should this be any surprise? Powerful women in history (Elizabeth and Catherine the Great, and others) were perfectly happy to do exactly this.

    So the “Rush syndrome” is the wail of the men who played the mating game by the old rules, only to see the rules changed, and then berate the incoming tide.

    As for the rest of the characterizations—here in Appalachia, a coworker who hails from here said his family and home townfolk would think that Bernie Sanders voters were “losers” who were poor and destitute and looking for “handouts”. “Then I come here to work” he says “and I see the Bernie voters are usually financially solvent professionals, moreover who are in fact willing to pay higher taxes to get the things they want”. This observation also applies to my Unitarian friends, who tend to be politically liberal but who also ironically conform better to the “Focus on the Family” stereotypes of stable marriages and successful offspring, while the families of conservative evangelicals are much more likely to be basket cases (they have the highest rates of divorce).

    Particularly for the Unitarians, I’d say that almost none of the characterizations you put in apply. They generally don’t buy the “starter castles” homes they can’t afford and they’re pretty actively involved in their churches and community.

  31. S Brennan

    NR cites a source:

    Then goes on to say:

    “Rush Limbaugh still had over 15 million listeners, so no, rural/red America did not turn its back on him. He was still very popular with American right-wingers.”

    So I check NR’s source…and what do I find?

    “…there are significant gaps in Nielsen’s coverage in rural areas, and because there are only a few markets where the company’s proprietary data can be compared against competing ratings tabulators, there is a great deal of estimation and interpolation when attempting to compile a list of the most-listened-to radio programs in the United States. Arbitron, the radio industry’s largest audience-measurement company, says that “the job of determining number of listeners for Rush Limbaugh is too complicated, expensive and difficult for them to bother with.”[2]”

    In other words, NR cites somebody that says out outright “it’s an effing guess” as “evidence”. And so it goes…lies upon lies from blue no matter who]’s, no allegiance to some rough approximation of truth.

    My point stands………………

    “Rush Limbaugh’s influence died alongside the dead & wounded young men who went to Iraq/ AF-PAK. Not a single person I met on my travels today in “red” America knew of his death, nor cared…Rural/Red America long ago turn it’s back to boosters of George [the 2nd] Bush, Dick Cheney…their toadies like Rush, CNN, Newsweek, Time, NYTimes, WaPo et al.”

    …………………In my travels since, I have yet to hear anybody mention Limbaugh’s death. And even with my “helpful” prompting, they didn’t know and they most assuredly didn’t care.

    As author Thomas Frank has tried to explain to urbanish liberals and as I pedantically repeat here, if your understanding of rural/red America comes from media…albeit the best writing the “New Yorker” or the “Atlantic” can drum up…everything you think you know, is conjured; it’s written to comfort your choices in life, to reinforce your world view; it’s meant to insulate you from truth.

  32. BlizzardOfOzzz

    Question 1: of the people at the top levels of power, what do you think is their opinion of Rush Limbaugh? Question 2: of Rush Limbaugh’s fans, how much power or influence do you suppose they have?

    Limbaugh may as well be Emmanuel Goldstein for all this orgy of denunciation.

  33. NR

    Apparently people here need reminding that Trump gave Limbaugh the Presidential Medal of Freedom just last year.

    Limbaugh was still a very powerful and influential figure in the Republican party, no matter how much some might try to deny it.

  34. The observation that socially liberal blue-voting cultural-elites tend to have an outward lifestyle that are paragons of planned stability regardless of how they are constructed (from conventionally straight nuclear families to trans polyamorists) while outwardly conservatively religious “middle Americans” tend to have broken relationships and bitter custody battles has been made for a long time. I call it the My Cousin Vinnie effect. I don’t know if it holds up empirically, but it has the ring of truth at least.

    Right wingers like Charles Murray have argued from this observation that social liberalism as policy is profoundly selfish, because it harms parts of the population that are innately incapable (for values of “innate” that charitably include poor upbringing) of safely handling that kind of freedom from pressure to conform. Apparently, this includes a lot of stereotypical “middle Americans”. YMMV.

    In contrast, I would argue that successful social liberalism that retains outward family stability is essentially synonymous with some amount of reinvention of the male role and self-image. e.g. “in principle” (if not in practice; remember that practice is always secondary at every level of political argument) willingness to take responsibility for things like childcare and housework.

  35. S Brennan

    Anybody who want’s to escape the hatred, lies and cold might want watch the live-stream of NASA Perseverance.

    I think coverage should begin at 14:15 EST, or 11:15 PST.

    WARNING: Those suffering from TDS may be subject to anaphylactic shock. Viewing America succeed has been known to “trigger” such events in TDS patients. And knowing that Trump/Bridenstine worked hard over the past four years to achieve the first true budget increases NASA has seen in well over 3 decades could further complicate their recovery. More troubling for TDS patients, next week NASA’s SLS booster, the first man rated interplanetary capable booster since the Saturn V was abandoned* will run a “green test” at Stennis engine test facilities. TDS sufferers should not lose hope during these American successes, help is on the way, President Biden was a key player in the “US ASTRONAUTS TO FLY RUSSIAN ROCKETS” decision, so we should soon be back to under-funding NASA in favor of bailouts to the wealthiest .01% .

    3 completed vehicles, capable of lifting all of the 135 Shuttle missions payloads combined were left to rot, alongside parts for 3-4 more Saturn V vehicles in order to “save” 70 million dollars. The “savings” were offset by at least 100 Billion in deferred cost…effing brilliant.

  36. Shamrock McGillicuddy

    I’m not sure I’d agree with these.

    That’s putting it kindly. Dermot engages in a 6-point reductionism in order to fit life’s complexities into something his feeble mind can handle. One of the dumber things I’ve ever read.

  37. Astrid

    Hugh, you comparing Glenn Greenwald to Tucker Carlson doesn’t deserve a longer response. Whatever the shortcomings of Greenwald, it’s the “not doing as much as he could” sort and apparently your desire for him to more intimately participate in the woke circular firing squad. But he’s put himself on the line numerous times including putting his livelihood and possible physical safety on the line by resigning from the Intercept. In what world is he equivalent to the obviously unscrupulous Carlson?

    What good is passing your purity test anyways. You voted Biden/Harris, and one would have to look hard, even in DC, to find less pure and more corrupt creatures.

  38. Ché Pasa

    David Miranda is in much more danger daily than Greenwald ever was in his life.

  39. Hugh

    Thanks, Astrid, for that long list of articles where, at great personal risk, Greenwald excoriated Trump from the frontlines in Brazil.

  40. Astrid

    @Che:. Didn’t realize this was a martyredom competition. At least the early Christians were promised eternal life in heaven as reward. What’s the motivation for martyredom these days? Other than getting marginalized and slandered a la Corbyn…

  41. Astrid

    @Hugh: you compared Greenwald to Carlson and got called in it. Your response didn’t provide any support for your position. Instead, you built a new strawman about how Greenwald hasn’t done enough for whatever vaguely defined and presumably TDS related cause you deem important for your taste. He’s not a public servant or your slave. He can work as much or as little as he wants. That alone doesn’t put him in the same category as Carleson. It’s possible that how he handled the Snowden files is nefarious, but he might be tortured like Assange if he was more martyre-iffic.

    What’s their reward if they pass your test? Would you stop voting for DNC stooges or put your neck on the line for something? Or will you just continue to type furiously and anonymously like the rest of us cowards?

  42. S Brennan


    It should be clear by now that the “blue no matter who” crowd will disparage the purity of anyone who does not strictly adhere the neoD’s ever changing, self-serving narrative. Supporting falsehoods, often with contrary positions, often in the same day, is not a problem for these hypocritical creatures so long as their twisted mental back-flips are in support of the DNC’s Shiton Astick [D]’s.

    Any person who in any manner attempts to destroy Al From’s legion of R’s that took over the then Democratic party 40 years ago must be ruthlessly purged, made voiceless and if possible, destroyed. Hugh, NR, StewartM and other such commenters here see anti-From D’s as the real threat, not rumpR’s, they know they must shout down those who wish to make the working class central to the present day neoD party. That is why they sell non-productive hatred, they know it is the surest way to prevent rational, self-enabling thought.

    “the neoD’s do not control all of government…we must have revolution in the streets,..oh these R’s are monsters, we have to vote for the Shiton Astick [D]’s…don’t even think about…now that Shiton Astick [D] is in…we must give him a chance…he needs two terms or…longer…oh these rumpR’s are monsters what can we do…they are so evil…we have to vote for Shiton Astick [D] with more enthusiasm [D]..yes, yes more enthusiasm…don’t even think about”

  43. Ché Pasa

    Greenwald and Carlson (among others) serve a certain faction of the Overclass, “Power” as it were, and they serve approximately the same faction. As long as they do, they’re safe.

    Glenn’s and his fans’ endless dramatics about how he’s risking all (torture, death, disappearance into the Empire’s gulags, yada, yada) to report this or that chosen narrative are just that: dramatics. His fans, of course, amplify his hysterics, defend his every utterance (though he has to have an interpreter explain what he’s uttered) and would worship at his feet if he were around.

    Now Astrid sees the need to defend his martyrdom as Mona once did, while Glenn’s husband, David Miranda (for those who don’t know) is an the elected delegate from Rio in the Brazilian congress, an avowed Socialist, an outspoken and implacable opponent of Bolsonaro and his fascist regime, whose life is endangered daily but he’s no martyr. He’s a fighter putting his life on the line.

    Glenn is the perpetual martyr — as he is constantly reminding his fans and the whole wide world.

  44. Hugh

    So if Greenwald shows up on FoxNews pushing FoxNews storylines, that’s just a coincidence. Greenwald went through the 4 years of the Trump madness, and was so insightful that he managed to miss all of it. And Rachel Maddow is a sell-out for working for MSNBC while Glenn is a rebel for working for an eBay billionaire. He’s a martyr, another Assange, for sitting on the Snowden files in a comfortable house in Rio. This actually fit right in with a post on Rush “Don’t believe your lying eyes” Limbaugh.

  45. Astrid

    I didn’t think Greenwald is a martyr or interested in being one. He isn’t Assange but considering what happened to Assange and Manning, it’s not fair to expect him to martyre himself in a similar manner.

    I haven’t seen him push false storylines the way that Maddow definitely has, and Maddow is horrible because her lies are making things much worse for global peace and having some kind of functional, accountable national government.

    Greenwald showing up on Fox news isn’t a damnable offense in my book as long as he isn’t lying. I doubt rest of MSM will give him a podium these days. So if the only thing you can pin on him is that he shows up on Fox News and doesn’t have TDS, then you pretty much proved my case for me.

  46. Phil Agee

    Any truly dangerous reporter will end up dead mysteriously, sometimes suicided. Or simply ruined. All others of any significance are most likely “with” the company in some capacity, whether they even know it or not.

  47. S Brennan

    “[The] rest of MSM will not give [Greenwald ] a podium these days”

    They want him discredited…silenced. Our resident quisling and our “former revolutionary”. Ché, who once demanded the purest form of revolution…his…has now embraced his true self, his inner quisling. These two are just two tools in that effort, they’ll use whatever pretzel logic they can to advance the goal of putting ever more Shiton Astick [D]s into power.

    On the bright side, for those not consumed by hate…

    “Touchdown confirmed!” mission controllers announced at 3:57 p.m. EST. NASA’s Perseverance Mars rover reached and successfully landed safely on the surface of Mars:

    More background info here:

  48. Ché Pasa

    Except to his fans (and some of his critics), Greenwald is irrelevant. No one is trying to silence him. He’s had platform after platform, has been able to say and write anything he wants and avoid whatever he wants to as well. No one interferes with his sacred Freedom of Speech.

    But he’s not immune from criticism. These days, though, hardly anyone cares what he says or does. He’s well past his best-buy date and isn’t even able to inject poison into the system like he used to. Others have done it more and better the last four-five years.

  49. Astrid

    Che:. I largely agree that Greenwald allowed himself to become irrelevant. That’s his right. I would say that quitting the Intercept is a principled action though, since he clearly did it over a principle that mattered enough to him and lost access to a nice paycheck and possibly lawyers should Bolsanaro come knocking.

    But Hugh didn’t say Greenwald was irrelevant. He said Greenwald is a Tucker Carlson wannabe and I don’t think there’s any support for that. Carlson toes a GOP line when push comes to shove, I don’t see that with Greenwald. Just because he hasn’t been writing a lot or appeared on Fox News doesn’t make him a GOP stooge.

  50. Hugh

    Whether a country or a person, you either stay ahead of the curve or get run over by it. Much like Trump and the right, Limbaugh simply denied there was a curve and wanted to return the country to a mythical racist white past where men were men, who told women what to do and left anyone who couldn’t con the system to go die in a ditch. As Ché Pasa says, the curve ran over and past Greenwald a long time ago. Now he’s just an embarrassment, and an irrelevant one at that.

  51. different clue

    I see that other people have offered correctives to Dermot M O Connor ‘s description of the listeners to the radio politics jockeys. In my defense, I will say that I don’t move in those social circles that much. In fact, I don’t get out much at all. How “not much” do I get out? Not-much enough that the covid restrictions have not affected my lifestyle all that much.

  52. Phil Agee

    Greenwald has done serious reporting but none of his reporting ever threatened the economic or imperial power structures in any serious way. The Snowden affair is rather curious indeed. Snowden himself should not be above approach.

    Carlson is silly.

  53. Hugh

    BTW if you do an advanced search on google for Glenn Greenwald and specify the site, you can see the stories that the valiant Glenn has been doing for them recently.

  54. Astrid

    Hugh, we can’t all be like you and be aboard the trending TDS ad infinitum, Russia/China/Iran are unspeakably, and Cancel Culture is A OKAY bandwagon.

    Huzzah for you to be ahead of the curve and ready to condemn someone not for what they said but for saying it on what you consider to be the wrong channel. For that, he surely deserves to be without a means of support and Cancelled in every possible way

  55. someofparts

    word seedlings scatter
    furious hamster wheels spin
    song and sense go flat

  56. Hugh

    Cancel Culture is a great invention of the right. You don’t need any facts. Indeed, if the facts are against you, just cry “Cancel Culture!” or “TDS” or “Russia” and it’s all OK. In right wing think then, the more facts given that they are wrong, in their minds magically change into more reasons they are really right, somehow.

  57. different clue

    I was right. The link . . .*/
    does take you to the Internet Archives legacy Kurt Saxon Atlan Formularies page. Click on it and the “first step” screen appears. Then some thrashing around which is too tedious to describe in words here . . . some trial and error hunt-and-peck clicking . . . . gets you to the Saxon page itself.

    When it opens, one will see on the left side going down vertically a set of ” topic names”. Each of those has some related articles. Four “topic” titles down is one called Controversy Central. It lights up red when the cursor hovers over it. Clicking on it will open a page with a bunch of articles listed by title. ” The Truth About Rush Limbaugh” is 6 article-titles down from the top.
    It is the whole short article.

    Just for gits and shiggles, I will try copy-pasting the linklet for that article itself. But I think the Internet Archive is designed to make that impossible. But I will try anyway.

  58. different clue

    Well what do you know . . .

    That link I offered just up above doesn’t open the article itself, but it DOES take you right straight to the legacy Kurt Saxon homepage, without any hunting and pecking on the Wayback Machine page itself.

  59. Astrid

    Hugh, it doesn’t matter where the terms come from, the resurgence of neo-McCarthyism is very real. There are numerous cases of people being chased out of high profile positions for using the wrong word or unpopular positions or just uttering a verboten truth about Israel, often for activities outside of their official job position. This neo-McCarthyism has infestated practically all the allegedly educated PMC that I am embedded amongst. They seem to have completely forgotten long honored concepts like due process and innocent before trial that we were all taught in high school. They just assume they’re right and people with other opinions are bad people who deserve to be unemployed or worse. They’re no better than Republican leaning assholes who joke about prison rape and other extrajudicial punishment.

    And yes, I see you and others here cheer the deplatforming of people you don’t like and mentally convicting people of crimes that they haven’t been charged/convicted on. So I don’t think it’s unfair to lump you in there.

    Your behavior here in the past year cannot described as anything other than TDS and (to me) utterly irrational hated of the Russian and Chinese governments, who have done nothing to hurt you whereas your own government and the Israeli government are clear and present danger to everyone on this planet. You can’t tolerate anyone who might say anything remotely nice about Trump, even in isolation. You call them Fascists even when they haven’t said anything to deserve that description. You’re utterly obsessed by Trump and yet in denial about it.

    You’re hardly unique in any of these characteristics. But I can’t say anything to the IRL practitioners because it won’t change their mind and I’ll be ostracized or worse. At least here, I can tell you that, though I know I won’t change your mind either.

  60. NR

    “Help, I’m being cancelled!!!” say a bunch of right-wingers as they make thousands of posts on social media and give countless TV interviews where they won’t stop talking about how cancelled they are.

  61. BlizzardOfOzzz

    NR, and Trump was the guy who couldn’t accomplish much of anything in terms of policy, even with the most powerful office in the country and 75 million supporters.

    Just when I’m starting to think you guys are actually fascists — nope, you’re communists. Total control of the country, but nothing is ever your fault. It’s always the “wreckers”, the Emmanuel Goldsteins.

    Imagine the nerve of talking about “our children’s future” from someone who wants to lock up my children until they commit suicide, to save them from the flu.

  62. Willy

    This is like one of those conversations where people bicker over whether Michael Jackson was really black or actually white, with the occasional moron popping up to say it doesn’t matter because he was actually a communist.

    So why the hell does Greenwald spend so much time on Fox News? Does he have a realistic plan we folks here are just too stupid to fathom? Is he trying for that coveted Alan Colmes/Juan Williams/milquetoast liberal panelist slot? Is he trying to persuade the Rush Limbaugh wifebeater-tee-shirt MAGAs that maybe gay socialist lawyers aren’t so bad after all?

    I don’t have the time to go through a bunch of Fox News Greenwald video comment sections to take a count of who’s being persuaded of what.

    Plus this is supposed to be the time when people say their goodbye fuck you’s to Limbaugh. And maybe discuss how somebody more FDR good-n-decent might become as influential.

  63. NR

    Anyone still saying “COVID is just the flu” after half a million dead should not be listened to or taken seriously about anything.

  64. different clue

    Anyone claiming to believe that “covid is just the flu” should get himself infected with it so we can see that he actually believes his own statement.

  65. it's just measles not smallpox

    Is he trying to persuade the Rush Limbaugh wifebeater-tee-shirt MAGAs that maybe gay socialist lawyers aren’t so bad after all?

    Thank you.

    I talk to MAGA types at Wawa almost every morning. They inevitably bring up a lot of media talking points. Not one has ever been along the lines of, “Tucker had a great segment last night with that gay guy who fights for our freedom of speech from his jungle hideaway in Brazil.”

  66. S Brennan

    Biden tells his flock of BlueNoMatterWho’s that the $15/hr promise he ran on has to wait so. C’mon man…shut-up about it already:

    “look man…I really want this in there but it just doesn’t look like we can do it because…[Republicans]…reconciliation”

    To the BlueNoMatterWho’s reading this, in all likelihood $15/hr will happen pretty soon…when inflation kicks up from all the money printing going on, most employers will raise wages anyway. So just “calm down” and wait until it’s meaningless, you’ve been good losers, don’t ruin it for Joe.

  67. Trinity

    S Brennan,

    (tongue firmly in cheek):

    Great NASA stuff, but …um … not sure how to put this, so I’ll just dive in. They aren’t looking for life. They are looking for minerals, and how to sustain life (human lives) in inhospitable space. Their plan is that your grandchildren (or your neighbors’ grandchildren) will work as miners for the galactic empire, shipping valuable minerals back to the home world, aka “Earth”, a garden of eden after all the riffraff either died, were murdered, or conveniently and usefully parked permanently in space watching their bone density disappear right before their eyes. Their life spans are so shortened, there is a problem finding replacement carbon units, so efforts are already underway to grow babies in incubators.

    This all aligns perfectly with Bozo’s plan for his bazillion bucks, coincident with his Jean Luc Picard bromance. He, of course, having obtained a younger body (and hopefully better looking face, don’t judge, I did just say that) will be out and about exploring strange new worlds and seeking out new life (i.e. customers) while his replica drone will be back in eden, running the AmaGooUSPS company store empire whose enticing advertising literally shouts: “you won’t find this merchandise anywhere else because we own all manufacturing!” They specialize in overpriced, poorly made mining equipment, of course. These ads are run through his media empire that carries its own tag line “the only news we feel is fit to print and fit for you to know”.

    Blue or Red, that’s the plan. On a more serious note, I’m still not clear why anyone pays any attention to the blue v. red battle, other than the irony that the “reds” are anti-socialists. It’s all nonsense (and nonsensical) and designed to distract you from what’s really going on. If anyone can enlighten me on this phenomena, I’m all ears. I used to think it was just something you all enjoyed, but it doesn’t look like anyone is having a good time.

  68. Jason

    Nice one Trinity!

  69. S Brennan

    Trinity…evidence? You know, actual facts…not pure conjecture?

    I am in the biz, a lot of the good people I know at NASA would laugh at your ignorance, they have spent their lives solving the worlds problems; after forty years of derision, they’re probably used to ingrates like yourself. But I think, your vilification of the good hearted people who’ve served this country-HUMANITY and in the process saved millions of lives and uncounted resources might be going too far…I am sure your close person friends will be impressed with verbal savagery but, I travel the world and if there is one part of the USA universally admired, it’s the United States effort in space exploration.

    You need to get out more…and in the meantime, fermé la bouche !

  70. Blissex

    «They’re going to die, never having faced the consequences of the evil they have done. You, on the other hand, if you’re not old and cushioned by wealth, will.»

    This “old and cushioned by wealth” applies also to a a large part of the middle class, in particular those owning significant 401(k) shares or real estate in the areas where prices have been inflating for the past 40 years, something like 10-30% of voters.

    Our blogger writes this of elites like Limbaugh or Pelosi, but they were not all-powerful on their own, they could do what they did because those affluent middle classes supported them electorally and with donations.

    In particular real estate is the opium of the middle class, the single biggest economic and political fact in most anglo.american countries.

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