The horizon is not so far as we can see, but as far as we can imagine

Another Set of Primaries Today

We have Idaho primaries (25 delegates), Michigan primaries (147 delegates), Mississippi primaries (41 delegates), Missouri primaries (68), North Dakota caucuses (18 delegates), and Washington primaries (107 delegates).

The polling on this is terrible, it went very south Sunday. Expect bad news tonight.

Fortunately, this is not a big mess of primaries, and there will be a chance to turn it around later, but some luck is going to be required. Perhaps Sanders can take Biden down clearly in the next debate (or, more likely, Biden’s senility will take him down). Perhaps a Biden senile-moment blows up past the media’s ability to filter it. Perhaps something else; obviously no one wants the Coronavirus to decide the primaries or elections, but Trump, Biden, and Sanders are all in the very vulnerable class, and politicians are still exposing themselves to people.

If you’re working to get Bernie elected, I’d suggest you keep working. It’s impossible to know what will happen, but also be prepared for the bad news which is most likely coming.

(Aside: To me it looks like Warren’s repeated attacks on Sanders had the effect of estranging various of her followers from Sanders. She’s not stupid enough not know what she’s doing. So be it.)

Feel free to use the comments to discuss the results as they come in, and so on.

Edit: Corrected the number of delegates Missouri offers.

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Once More on Elizabeth Warren in Her Moment of Truth


Taking the Coronvirus Seriously


  1. Dan Lynch

    Isn’t Michigan a must-win for Bernie?

    Call me a cynic but I’ve always assumed the establishment would not allow Bernie to win. This time they were more subtle, relying on behind-the-scenes phone calls and arm twisting rather than blatantly rigging the primaries, but it seems to have worked.

    Bernie lost white working class votes that he had won in 2016, perhaps due to his shift on immigration and gun control (which may have helped him with urban & hispanic votes).

    Trump is mishandling the coronavirus epidemic so badly that even a horrible candidate like Biden may be able to beat Trump. But what will change if Biden takes the White House?

    Color me unenthusiastic about the 2020 election.


    Oh well. There’s always next time. Oh, wait, no there isn’t. There won’t be a next time. The window of opportunity is almost closed and will be closed after the results are announced this evening. I will vote for Bernie in my state’s primary but I know he won’t get the nomination let alone win the primary in my state, so I will not be voting in the general and I am in the process of convincing my wife, daughter and son to withhold their vote in the general in protest against the Dem party. The Dem party needs to be destroyed. It’s the reason there is, and can be, no progress.

    Ian’s right, America deserves what it’s going to get, but, then again, most of the world also deserves what it’s going to get because as it goes in America it goes in the rest of the world for the most part. We’ve run our course as a species and taken most of nature with us. I fail to see how that’s progress. Orwell would be pleased. Progress = destruction.

    Now, please, everyone join me in prayer. Oh great lord, mightier than the mightiest, please crater the stock market to zero and destroy the sadistic rich of this planet entirely. We ask this in your name, amen.

  3. Tom Brady arrives with his arm in a sling.

    Tom: “Sorry Coach, I broke my arm.”

    Bill Belichick: “It’s game time, Tom. Take your position.”

    Asst. Coach: “But Bill, his arm is broken–”

    Bill Belichick: “Shhhh! Don’t MENTION it or people will NOTICE!”

    This is the media & Dem elites’ “Emperor’s New Clothes” strategy to pretend Biden’s mind isn’t declining. They get *very* angry at people who point it out. Remarkable (as is their exploitation of an ailing 77-year-old).

    Maybe they plan to replace him with another conservative nominee–but won’t that merely switch one problem with another? It’d be someone who either dropped out early, or didn’t run at all, and the public wouldn’t find it legit. “Smoky back room” etc.

  4. KT Chong

    Immigration is a losing issue, last year for Corbin, and now for and Bernie.

    What’s the point of trying to appeal to people who can’t even legally vote (and aren’t supposed to be in the country in the first place) while at the same time alienating a lot of people who can?? Hello, MATH?

  5. StewartM

    I donated to Bernie today. But I think it’s already over.

    Biden’s senility will be hidden from the voters as much as possible–by the DNC, at least. The reason why the next debate will go to a town hall is so the Biden people can put plants in there to toss Uncle Joe nerfball questions where he’s been briefed to get canned answers; after all Clinton–but not Sanders–got the debate questions beforehand.

    In the general election, maybe Uncle Joe can use the coronavirus as an excuse to avoid any debates?
    Too bad. Because now Biden has indicated that if (by miracle) a Medicare-for-all bill ever did reach his desk, he’d VETO it.

    Biden’s presidency would be a disaster at least on par with Trump’s; maybe more so. The only thing that keeps Biden’s coalition together is that he’s not-Trump. Once Trump is gone, that glue dissolves and you’re left with essentially a Republican president with no mandate. And now the Democratic base is cheering on a Bush bro?


    The Dem establishment is bad enough but then there are the conservative retards also like the retard in Detroit arguing with Biden about Biden wanting to take his guns away. God I wish I could bloody that son-of-a-bitch in the hard hat without going to jail. Guys like him need to bloodied to the point they can never walk and talk again. The retarded conservatives are showing the video of this confrontation as though it makes Biden look bad when in fact it makes Biden look great. It makes him look tough. He’s surrounded by a bunch of fascist white goons in hard hats and he’s undaunted and goes toe to toe with the pussy in the hard hat confronting him. Hey pussy, at least take off your hard hat so if something physical does go down, your skull can be cracked open and what little brains you do have, if you have any at all, can spill out on the factory floor. Such tough guys. Biden ended up looking like a stud and the thugs in hard hats made it all possible. What a bunch of white dumbasses.

  7. nihil obstet

    Gore Vidal once pointed out that America doesn’t have politics; it just has elections. Let’s remember that in early 2016 the idea that Sanders had a serious chance at the presidency was laughable. He began, not to win, but to use a public platform to advocate for good policies and at most to move the establishment to the left. The need is still there.

    Fight to the last moment, and then, if you don’t win the election, seamlessly transition from the fight for single electoral success to the continued fight for the movement.


    I’m never going to stand side to side with dumbasses like that dumbass in the hard hat who confronted Biden about Biden taking his guns away. I’d sooner kill him or at least beat him until he’s disabled (the guy in the hard hat). This union could never happen. Biden is inadequate for SO MANY REASONS and taking away dumbasses’ guns IS NOT ONE OF THEM. Get out of my face with that nonsense, white militia moron.

    Fyi, Mexicans are painting my house. The owner of the company is Mexican and he employs Mexicans. It was between him and a white owner of a painting company. The white owner employed an all Mexican crew too but he wanted $1,500 more for the job which I figured to be his bonus for being white and I wasn’t about to pay it. No down Whitey McWhite is a big Trump supporter just as many Trump supporters we know of are terrified of COVFEFE-19 despite their Dear Leader telling them it’s nothing. The hypocrisy. The hypocrisy. The rest of the whites in this trade are too screwed up on opioids and/or meth to even bother to give an estimate. My guy’s a devout family man who lives simply within his means unlike the white guy who wanted to charge me $1,500 more for the job.


    What that video shows me is, Biden will have no problem taking on Trump in any debate. He doesn’t scare easily and he’s not intimidated. He held his own and some against the hard-hatted thug/goon. Good job, conservatards. You’re making the case for Biden.

  10. People are going to start looking for all kinds of scapegoats now that the narrative is against Bernie. Too much identity politics, too much pro-immigrant, etc, etc. Some polling data will be scraped out here and there to show whatever it is you want it to show.

    It ain’t true. Bernie is losing because he chose an underlying emotional narrative that is doomed to fail. People spent too much time dunking on Russiagate (among other things!!!) as a sign of liberal fecklessness to see the forest for the trees and the underlying fear it represents. The “election question” of the primary was *who will undo Trump*. Denying Russiagate without addressing the fear that underlies Russiagate was a losing strategy. The “can’t get insulin to live” narrative is easily flooded by the fear of what Putin represents.

  11. StewartM


    Immigration is a losing issue, last year for Corbin, and now for and Bernie.

    No it’s not; at least for Bernie.

    “About the same” wins; “we need more” about identical to “we need less’. Moreover, the people who get worked up about immigration are not really ‘anti-immigrant’, they’re really “anti-NON WHITE immigrants”. Englishmen, Germans, Canadians, Australians, etc, are all fine by them. Seen it with my own eyes.

    The same goes for anti-abortion and guns; there’s not a lot of any inroads for a Democratic candidate of any stripe to capture there. A pro-gun, pro-abortion, anti-immigrant Dem will lose more votes from the Democratic base than he’ll gain vs any inroads into the Republican base.

    Immigration is not the cause of un- and under-employment. Our policy of leaving employment up to “Daddy Warbucks Job Creator is”. Most US firms are pathetically understaffed; they have work that needs to be done, that isn’t getting done, that could employ 25 %, 30%, 50 % more workers (and still be profitable) if US firms weren’t being run soley for the short-term profit of Wall Street. Our allowing Wall Street to run firms essentially means that they are run into the ground for short-term profit, with bare minimum investments in people, R&D, infrastructure, and anything else pertaining to the long-term future.

    And I know people here resist this message, but *we actually need these guys*. Not unless you think the good society is that your coffee gets served by a dottering 70-something, as retirement is no longer an option. That’s exactly where Japan is heading (proposals to raise it as high as 75)*. The US workforce saw a larger percentage increase in the 1950s, 60s, and 70s with women entering the workforce without seeing a decline in real wages.

    * But maybe a retirement stint for our presidential candidates?

  12. anon

    Nearly every major Democratic candidate that ran in this year’s primary is backing Biden. Only those considered ”outsiders” like Marianne Williamson, Tom Steyer, and Elizabeth Warren did not endorse Biden. Warren’s cowardly silence is like a default endorsement for Biden. Obama has been twisting arms and Hillary continues her ”I hate Bernie”/documentary tour. This was always going to be an uphill battle for Bernie even if he had won more delegates. If he were to go to the convention with a slight lead, the DNC would just hatch another way to deny him the nomination.

    There are many Americans who get what they deserve because of who they vote for, but Bernie’s popularity and his initial surge show that there are millions of Americans who support his ideas. The DNC had to pull out all the punches this time to portray Bernie in the worst possible light to voters who may want Bernie, but will vote for the “safe” “Democratic” candidate with party backing and larger name recognition over an Independent outsider.

    The will of the people is being subverted by the wealthiest Americans who don’t want change. The upper middle class well-educated peons who support Warren, Biden, Buttigieg, and Klobuchar, and think they are somehow better than Bernie’s working class supporters, are only one job loss or health emergency away from losing everything. They are not a part of the ruling class no matter how much they want to believe they are part of their club.

  13. anon

    The number of coronavirus cases will be underreported in the USA for as long as possible until it gets completely out of control. The uninsured will simply not go to the hospital. They will either be healthy enough to recover or they will die. The coronavirus is the best example Bernie can use right now to justify universal health care.

    His major weakness is not going hard enough on Biden. He should stop prefacing every attack on Biden with, “he’s my friend.” No, he’s not, Bernie. He’s not your friend and he’s not a friend of the average American struggling to make ends meet. If today doesn’t completely obliterate Bernie’s chances, he needs to go hard on Biden in the next debate. It’ll be his last chance to show Americans that Biden is not mentally fit to lead the country, nor does he deserve to win any votes based on his record of lies and corruption. Bernie can no longer play nice. The Democratic Party will blame him regardless if Biden loses to Trump.

  14. Jeff in Texas

    Never count out the coronavirus, but I think this is a done deal.

    I was disappointed that the race came down to Bernie and Biden– I voted enthusiastically for Bernie in 2016, but 4 years and a heart attack later, I was planning on voting for someone else this go around. But by the time of the Texas primary, with Bernie, Biden, and Bloomberg the only three remotely viable candidates left, it was Bernie or bust. Now that the moderate Borg has united by Biden, I’m just sort of numb that this is the route the election has taken. I think Biden is objectively terrible as a candidate, and he is terrible in ways that blunt criticism of Trump– family corruption, refusal to reform healthcare, mental decline, etc. Watching the mindless defense of such a ridiculous old man by those who have to know better, but who are committed to dragging his corpse across the finish line, is somehow predictable and shocking at the same time.

    In the end, the best case scenario with a Biden election is a repeat of Obama: a moderate-right Democrat comes in to bail out Wall Street and the healthcare industry, and do his damnedest to cut the social safety net to pay for it all. History repeats itself in a hurry these days, it seems.

  15. Willy

    People who actually work in the trenches know what immigration does to their own job security.

    A better word is “feel’. They feel it every day. People outside the trenches, who can only imagine that they can feel the worker, who deal with abstractions, are deluding themselves. They’re rationalizing on behalf of others in situations which they don’t have any experience. This will turn off those voters and they wont hear much of anything else you’ll have to say.

    When I was an engineer I enjoyed my immigrant associates, especially those very different looking from myself. They added spice to the office. So many new cultures, personalities and viewpoints to sample!

    Now that I’m a contractor I see things very differently. I’ve seen Mexicans making far more money than their native journeymen professionals, because they don’t pay taxes, insurance or fees, because most will cut every corner they can get away with, because they employ assembly line style gigging crews which are geared entirely towards speed and appearance results. What happens after they leave their part of the job is of little concern to them since you wont be able to track them down anyways. And they only refer each other for any and all other jobs.

    OTOH, illegals can be useful where price gouging is widespread, such as in the arborist industry, where there may be no other way to get a reasonable price for services.

    Ignorance about the impacts of illegal immigration on stressed workers is a major reason why Trump will likely be re-elected. Preaching to workers is pure folly and will only turn them off. You’ll lose everybody from house painters to software engineers if you think that a little preaching will change their minds, when they feel career stress every single day from continuously incoming low wage workers.

  16. anon

    “To me it looks like Warren’s repeated attacks on Sanders had the effect of estranging various of her followers from Sanders.”

    I guess Warren decided if she could not be the progressive nominee, she would help doom Bernie’s chances as well. Bitter and petty. If she did not want to endorse Bernie, she could have at the very least kept her opinions regarding Bernie and his supporters to a minimum until after the primary was over. She only made things worse between her supporters and Bernie’s on Twitter. I would say that other than the DNC, Warren entering the race was the worst thing to have happened to Bernie’s campaign.

    I feel bad that so many of Bernie’s so-called “friends” betrayed him. If I were him, I would give the middle finger to the Democratic Party, not campaign for Biden (or do as Hillary did for Obama and only do a handful), leave DC, and spend my retirement years creating an organization that will help progressive candidates nationwide beat the same politicians who stabbed him in the back. The Democratic Party and many of its supporters have stated loud and clear that they do not want progressives around except for their votes every four years.

  17. carolinnj

    warren is a fraud, kos makes me sick. but believe it: nothing the repubs have done or undone will be undone or redone if the dems assume power, the dems are complicit, colluding, totally on-board with the repub agenda. including kavanaugh to the sc. the dnc establishment won\’t lose a second\’s sleep if trump wins, all the same to them

  18. Crystal

    Correction: Missouri has 68 delegates.

  19. Crystal

    I think some percentage of Warren voters overlap with Hillary 2016 voters and would never have supported Bernie. Just a hunch, I don\’t have data to support it.

  20. Ian Welsh

    Thanks Crystal, corrected in the post.

  21. edmondo

    Is there any way Ian can come up with a “Block” feature? I spend way too much time reading convoluted, inane commentary from The delusion that telling any voter to “Kiss my ass.” is somehow acceptable, let alone “makes Joe Biden look like a fighter” is so stupid that I question whether it’s not some kind of parody of an actual post.

    Oh, and by the way, Bernie’s mocking the Democratic Party establishment after the Nevada caucus and telling them “We’re coming after you!” may well have been the most hilarious piece of triumphalism ever. Bernie blew it. I guess the same crew will be here in 2024 placing all their hopes on an 83 year old.


    I question whether it’s not some kind of parody of an actual post.

    Where have you been? Asleep for the past four or more years, it appears. Reality is now a parody, for your information. Maybe it always has been but it certainly, most assuredly, is now. Look at the Buffoon In Chief. He’s a fu*cking parody for christ’s sake. What else would you call it? It’s all a very bad joke. A tragic comedy and yet you somehow think it’s not. What’s wrong with you? Do you have autism that you fail to see that you are part of a big f*cking joke? How could you have no clue that you exist in a reality that’s a parody?

    That being said, yes, Biden showed his Trump today with that hard-hatted goon/thug and actually he showed he’s tougher than Trump because he went toe to toe with the white militia goon versus hiding behind multiple layers of security like fat orange Donnie does because he’s such a bed-wetting coward.

    The people want someone who can beat Trump at his own game and Biden is the perfect choice. The people want someone who can stand up to Trump. Someone who will take Trump behind the woodshed and kick his ass or hell, kick his ass on the debate stage, quite literally. Biden can gaffe as much as Trump and he can chastise & harangue the opposition and push back against it/them just as much as Trump and as effectively as Trump. The polls are showing that he apparently is inspiring his base.

    Have you heard the good news, edmondo? He has risen — Joe Biden that is. He’s a Blue Trump. He’s Trump for Dems and you reich wing turds are jealous because he’s not obese like Donnie the orange dildo and he’s sensitive towards women. He’s so sensitive, he prefers to smell their essence versus violently grab their pussies as is the orange feces stain’s wont.

    Biden was right to push back against the white militia man turd blossom. White militia man doesn’t need 100 rounds of ammo. He doesn’t need machine guns or automatic weapons. He doesn’t need an arsenal. For that doofus gun-loving freak to put forth that specific protest to Biden, of all possible protests and there are many, to Joe Biden who is a Republican for all intents & purposes, is beyond idiotic. It’s emblematic of someone who suffers from microcephaly.

  23. Z

    If Bernie doesn’t win the nomination then the next step is forming a third party. There’s nowhere else to go except revolution of some type involving strikes, demonstrations, and probably violence. Bernie’s campaign has created the financing structure for a third party to fund itself, a political platform, a strong and growing base, and the solidarity.

    I hope it can happen in time for this election, if it comes to that. Have Tulsi run. Maybe that’s why she’s sticking around, keeping her campaign warmed up for a third party run if they are able to f*ck over Bernie’s movement.

    Shoot, I’d love to have them f*ckers try to hang it on her that she didn’t keep her promises to them after all they’ve been doing to exclude her and have her laugh at them. If I was her and they came at me with this shaming sh*t about not keeping her word to those crooked bastards, I’d say I owe more loyalty to this planet and the U.S. working class than your corrupt party. And I can tell you precisely how many people who would’ve voted for Tulsi that wouldn’t over her not keeping her word to the democratic party: ZERO!

    There’s lots of moving pieces in a national campaign, I’d imagine. Plenty to learn. Tulsi could use the experience. If nothing else you build and you keep your movement in the media, in the public’s consciousness, beyond the twitterdom. They can’t ignore and blame you at the same time and we know they’re going to blame it on Bernie’s Army anyway when they lose. So might as well keep to the fight.

    The energy is there, the anger is there. All it would need is a leader to rally behind.


  24. different clue

    Well, I came out and primary-voted for Sanders. There was almost nobody there, at 1:00p.m.
    A poll-worker told me that there had been about 300 people there not long before. A different poll worker told me that it looked like the young and near-young were about 30% of the voters.

    I hope the Sanders effort continues all the way through DemCon 2020 in Milwaukee. I hope the Bernists can force the convention to go through hundreds of rounds of balloting before doing a brokered convention right out in the open.

    But also, and at the same time, I hope enough Sanders supporters in each state begin organizing to get Sanders’s name independently on all 50 state ballots.

    And I hope that Gabbard’s supporters begin immediately working to get Gabbard’s name on all 50 state ballots. The Gabbardistas don’t have to wait till DemCon 2020 to begin getting her separate name on all the state ballots because she has zero nomination chances to jeopardize by that effort.

    Sanders’s fatal weakness is that he is good to bad people. Perhaps that is a weakness of the liberal-left in general. Perhaps it goes back to the dirty filthy influence of ideological pacifism coming from the Quakers and other Peace Creeps who were so important in the recent “left”.

  25. anonone

    Are flat-out racist posts like Willy’s welcome here with no moderation?


    The elections are crooked? But Stoller and Greenwald are adamant that it’s not rigged and their word is gold, afterall. Both of them get the blue check seal of approval on twitter, which means they’re somebody versus a nobody.

  27. Hugh

    The DNC can engineer the nomination to whomever it wants, even someone with dementia and a terrible and very long political record. But the question is as always: can Democrats win the general without progressives and Millennials? Are they even going to bother with independents? Inquiring minds would like to know.

  28. Ten Bears

    2020 we thought we’d be flying cars. We’re teaching people to wash their hands.

    And then they run out and buy up all the toilet paper.

    Just sittin’ here on my sack of seeds.

    Caressing my well-oiled AR …

  29. Anthony K Wikrent

    First off, let me state that I detest Biden. But I think he can beat Trump. Why? Because there is an enormous amount of energy by a huge amount of local Democrats intent on getting Trump out of the White House. They would put Jimmy Carter — who is 95 – over the top, were he the nominee. Hell, they would put a ham sandwich over the top if that;s what emerged out of Milwaukee.

    Seriously, the number of people in my local area who are deeply involved in an astonishing array of “resistance” groups is amazing. If it’s like this around the country — and I have no reason to think it isn’t — then Biden can win the general election.

    So, what really worries me is what happens when a Biden administration proves its inability to confront the problems — like climate change, and the inexorable squeeze on family finances — that are an ever worsening threat to an increasing number of people.

    I think Edward Burmila in The Nation late last year is probably correct:
    “It is only luck that the right has not yet found a skilled autocrat. Palin was clueless, and Trump is his own worst enemy. He is a historically weak president who lacks even a passing understanding of how to use the power of the office effectively…. Democrats may get one more chance to govern before a competent authoritarian emerges from the right…”

    Just like the path followed by Obama led to Trump, the real danger is that the path followed by Biden will lead to something much worse than Trump: a competent authoritarian.

    Which means that no matter what happens to Sanders’ campaign, it is essential that his movement continue to be built. So that there are policy alternatives than can be readily grasped when the Biden Boyz screw everything up.

  30. Z

    Ten Bears,

    I wouldn’t worry too much about it yet. They probably won’t target your sack of seeds early on. Most marauders are drawn towards instant gratification. Should have plenty of warning …


  31. Z


    You’re assuming that a large part of Bernie’s following is going to vote for Biden, I’d imagine.

    If so, I think that’s a big assumption to make.


  32. anon

    Biden won Michigan. I knew it was over for Bernie soon after Super Tuesday, but I was hoping he could eke put a few more major wins to justify a debate with Biden to expose his major weaknesses to the nation. If Bernie loses Washington, the establishment Dems will pressure Bernie publicly to drop out asap to avoid any more debates.

  33. Dan Lynch

    Follow up: Bernie lost Michigan so it’s over unless Biden keels over from corona virus (which is possible).

    While the “establishment” was definitely against Bernie and that hurt him, the bottom line is that Bernie failed to win blacks and he failed to win the white working class, and you can’t blame that on the “establishment.” Bernie has to own that, and any progressive movement that wants to get traction in the heartland needs to learn some lessons from Bernie’s failures.

    Huey Long could have won those black votes and white working class votes and still been just as progressive on economic issues as Bernie if not more so.

  34. anon

    If Biden loses to Trump, we can look forward to traditional Democrats screaming at Bernie supporters for voting for the Green Party candidate. They stereotype progressives as Bernie Bros then act like whoever wins the Democratic nomination is entitled to progressive votes. Biden and Hillary said they could not commit to voting for Bernie if he wins he nomination, and that’s okay. But Bernie supporters who have been insulted by the Democrats and have watched the Democratic Party treat Bernie like shit are expected to suck it up and support any neoliberal war hawk that is coronated by the DNC.

  35. magi

    Four fifty botting along like an oldster mixing his meds. 10 Bears got the survival mode going, loaded and locked down for that security touch. Ok. Fine. There are others rearranging furniture while the house burns down.
    Is there a voice of reason in the room? Are we all doomed by a cheap Mexican beer virus? Much wringing of hands and scrunching of brow here. Er, cleaning of hands.
    Just tossing shit out here because I\’m of an age and sensibility that allows the indulgence. Thanks.
    Now back to Bernie and the normal (ha ha) commentators.

  36. Z

    E Tu Yang?


  37. Z

    They’ve already started calling for Bernie to concede the nomination.


  38. someofparts

    A more detailed breakdown of the cheating:

    Given the probable accurate votes tallies indicated here, Bernie won and he won big.

    The voters are not hopeless. They did their part. Stop blaming them.

    The vote results are a big, stinking LIE.

  39. Benjamin

    Looks like the party voters have chosen: crazy grandpa with dementia is the nominee.

    I’ll take a distinct pleasure in Trump’s victory.

  40. someofparts

    The virus is in the prisons:

    They are just going to let this thing rampage through prisons and nursing homes and hope it kills as many poor people as possible.

  41. KT Chong

    Most “Bernie Bros” are not Democrats. Most are left-leaning independents. They support Bernie Sanders, NOT the Democratic Party. They do NOT owe the Democratic Party their allegiance or loyalty.

  42. Benjamin

    @KT Chong

    No idea if that’s actually true for the party as a whole, but it’s certainly the case with me. I vote for policies, and Sanders was the only one on the ticket who had good policies, both in 2016 and now.

    I will not vote for Biden. Period. I won’t vote for Trump, but I won’t support his opponent either. Trump remains the lesser of two evils by dint of his sheer incompetence.

    Biden’s only chance at winning against Trump is if coronavirus kills a lot of people, and the stock market continues to collapse. And with the election still the better part of a year away, even if those two things happen now, the country may well have recovered and moved on by then (Vidal was correct when he talked about the United States of Amnesia).

    I try very hard to not get sucked into the idea of generational warfare, but the numbers tonight are making that extremely difficult to do. Looks like tonight really was ‘The Boomers Strike Back’. From the perspective of someone just starting his 30s, it genuinely looks like they hate us. Certainly whatever their rationale, they are actively make my future worse.

  43. Mark Pontin

    Anonone wrote: “Are flat-out racist posts like Willy’s welcome here with no moderation?”

    @ Anonone –

    As least as welcome as your question’s deeply dishonest concern trolling. Because whether you’re conscious enough to know it or not, your question _is_ deeply dishonest.

    There’s nothing implicitly racist in what Willy wrote. He may have racist views for all I know, but he didn’t express them here.

    What he wrote about “people who actually work in the trenches know what immigration does to their own job security” is nothing but the most basic, simple truth about the effect of cheap, easily pliable immigrant labor on the labor market as a whole.

    It depresses the cost of labor for the capitalists and terrorizes individual laborers into acquiescing to the demands of capital for fear of otherwise ending in the surplus labor pool. It immiserates — let’s bring back that word — labor as a whole.

    It’s designed to immiserate labor — that’s the reason for it. This is fundamental supply and demand, and doesn’t even rise to the level of Econ 101. “Open borders are a Koch Brothers policy,” as Bernie Sanders used to say.

    It’s not racist to point out the process of this immiseration. It’s truth-telling.

    What’s disturbing is that a clown like you is either (a) so brainwashed by neoliberalism that you honestly imagine that telling the truth about the effect of immigrant labor is intrinsically racist or (b) you imagine the rest of us are that brainwashed and you can just go around pointing the finger and chanting ‘racist, racist, racist’ and everybody will buy it.

  44. Ian Welsh

    Despite what some people think, I mostly don’t moderate.

    If I do, it would be to put everything on pre-approval. Most people don’t want that. I did do it once before when the situation became too much.

    Sadly, moderation between those two levels doesn’t really do much but piss people off, in my experience.

    Real websites (aka. ones with money) have a mod who watches basically all the time.

  45. anon

    I feel the same way, Benjamin. I’m in my 30s and I don’t feel like a Democrat after participating in a handful of demoralizing elections. If would describe myself as a progressive and a liberal Independent. I usually vote for down-ticket Democrats and will continue to vote for progressive Democrats. I have not been impressed with any of the Democratic nominees since Al Gore. At least he was serious about climate change.

  46. different clue


    If you want to make it generational, you might want to face up to the racial component of it.
    It was the older black voters of South Carolina who voted for Biden so strongly as to create an opening for the DNC to force other “moderates” out of the race in favor of Biden. If Biden’s victories in super Tuesday states were built on older black voters as well, then you will have to ask yourself why all the older Black voters hate you. Because they made it very clear from their voting that they hate you.

  47. someofparts

    Mark Pontin – Thank you for that excellent response to Anonone.

    Benjamin – I’m a geezer – a Boomer whether I am proud of that or not. What my generation is doing to yours breaks my heart. I don’t see how people who actually have kids can do this to their own children. My nephew is your age and he is an ER nurse, so he will be on the front lines fighting the coronavirus. I pray to all the saints that he survives it, and I hate the people who put him in such a position with a bottomless rage.

  48. Benjamin

    @different clue

    Oh that one’s easy: the older black voters in South Carolina are idiot sheep. Clyburn (who incidentally just called for the DNC to cancel all future primary debates) told them how to vote, and they did what they were ordered to do.

    After that, the DNC dropped all pretence that their primary goal wasn’t to stop Sanders and they threw everything they could into propping up Biden. I think they likely would have done that regardless of how SC turned out, but SC definitely boosted it. Super Tuesday was Biden being buoyed by the well timed tidal wave of endorsements and support, and after that he simply snowballed.

    The older black voters tonight I’m guessing are mostly just picking who they already view as the winner. That’s their choice; they’re supporting the guy who was VP to the complete devastation of black American wealth, but if that’s how they want to play it.

    Their kids won’t thank them for it.

    Exit polling is showing a majority of voters trust Biden, a man whose brain is clearly Swiss cheese, to handle a crisis better than Sanders. Voters are willfully stupid.

  49. different clue


    There is something else to consider . . . Voter Suppression targeted against potentially-suspect possible-Sanders-voters. The manufacture of long to super-long lines in places full of time-pressured people is one way to stop people from voting. Here is a story hinting at that.

    And how many normal-and-accustomed polling places were carefully closed in Texas and maybe other states in possible pro-Sanders areas?

    And how many of the vote totals are falsified or simply fake?

    You offer some theories other than hatred for older black voters voting for Biden. These seem like good theories. I would suggest that the non-black Boomers who voted for Biden might also be motivated by their own versions of these same Black-voter motivations. In other words, also not hatred for you. After all, they too, in their tiny minds, think that not-Sanders is somehow a key to defeating Trump. And they think that Biden is the only stop-Sanders hope at this point in time. ( Though it is fair to wonder how many votes Biden got from bitter Clinters
    who were voting for Biden strictly and only to get revenge on Sanders. If only there was a way to destroy their Social Security without affecting my Social Security at the same time, I would be well pleased with that.)

  50. TomR

    Excuse me, but pro-life is so DOA in the Democratic Party. Every year Gallup polls support for Roe v. Wade and it always lands around 65 to 70% of the whole nation supporting Roe v. Wade. Not everyone supports abortion itself but some people who oppose abortion still support choice. Trying to roll back Roe v. Wade won’t work for the country and certainly won’t work for Democrats.

  51. TomR

    There’s just no Black support for Sanders. He can’t win the nomination without a sizable portion of Black voters. Black Democrats are more conservative than White Democrats, and don’t see what Bernie offers them from 98% white Vermont. Biden has a stronger coalition than Hillary already, and a female VP nominee would make him stronger.

    And for all you planning to sit out a Biden-Trump election, thanks for losing the Supreme Court for the much of thebrest of the century, and blowing off climate reforms for good. Biden is not a 21st Century Republican and doesn’t act, look, walk, quack, or vote like one. He may not be a socialist or even much of a liberal but he sure as hell isn’t a Republican.

  52. someofparts

    Somebody on twitter just pointed out that people over 60 voted to give their grandkids the finger. Meanwhile, their grandkids voted to save their Social Security.

  53. someofparts

    Wow. According to Lee Fang, a writer for the Intercept,

    “Thermo Fisher Scientific, the main CDC partner supplying coronavirus test kits via its Qiagen partnership, apparently lacks the resources to make test kits here in the US. Combined both firms have spent $3 billion+ in stock buybacks over the last two years to enrich shareholders.”

  54. different clue


    ” Someone on twitter” doesn’t understand what his “people over 60” voted for. I assume tbat “someone on twitter” is talking about those over-60s who voted for Biden.

    Well, given that Biden wants to destroy Social Security, any over-60s voters who voted for Biden voted to destroy their own Social Security. Too bad that “someone on twitter” is too dumm to understand that. Too bad those Biden voters are also too dumm to understand that.

  55. different clue


    Biden conspired to put Clarence Thomas on the Supreme Court. The Supreme Court is just as lost under Biden as it is under Trump. So playing the “Supreme Court” card doesn’t work in this case. Nice try, though.

  56. KT Chong

    It is not generational warfare. It is racial.

    Blacks, especially older Blacks, simply would not vote for a Jew to be the president. (Just as they would not vote for a gay man to be the president.) That is just how it is.

    It is the elephant in the room, but we are not supposed to say it because it is politically incorrect to suggest that Black people could be very racist.

  57. someofparts

    why the Democrats lose (from 2011) –

    “Obama’s policy framework is now the policy framework of the Democratic Party, liberals, and unionism. Up and down the ticket, Democrats are operating under the shadow of the President, associated with unpopular policies that make the lives of voters worse and show government to be an incompetent, corrupt handmaiden to big business. So they keep losing.

    It should be obvious that if you foreclose on your voters, cut their pay, and legalize theft of their wealth by Wall Street oligarchs, they won’t be your voters anymore. ”

    Lucky us, Obama still runs the party. He is going to get Trump elected twice.

    I couldn’t make this stuff up if I tried.

  58. KT Chong

    Just google \”Black anti-Semitism\” and you can find lots of articles and discussions on this taboo topic. You can even find an archived New York Times article about it from 1969 on the first page of the search results. So Black anti-Semitism has been going on for a very long time.

  59. KT Chong

    As I said here for a third time: if Obama and Trump run against each other in an election, I would definitely vote for Trump over Obama. If you look deeper and beyond the mainstream media narrative, Obama was actually a worse president than Trump is.

    The first time I posted that comment, I got some very strong… reactions.

    The second time, some of you finally agreed with me.

    So here I repeat and reaffirm my stance again for the third time, and I expect more people to see the light.

  60. someofparts

    diff clue – incoherent much?

  61. KT Chong

    Don’t forget Obama has also normalized forever and permanent wars; he effectively ended all and any anti-war movements on the left.

  62. anonone

    @Mark Pontin

    Making broad negative generalizations about whole groups of people based solely on race or ethnicity is racism and prejudice by definition.

    And that is exactly what Willy did in his post, including making prejudicial generalizations about all Mexican people (the classic \”they\”) and referring to human beings as \”illegals.\” It is a dehumanizing label, but that is what bigotry is all about.

    No human being is illegal.

    Racism and bigotry should be called out here, even if Ian isn\’t going to moderate it.

  63. anonone

    @Mark Pontin

    Making broad negative generalizations about whole groups of people based solely on race or ethnicity is racism and prejudice by definition.

    And that is exactly what Willy did in his post, including making prejudicial generalizations about all Mexican people (the classic “they”) and referring to human beings as “illegals.” It is a dehumanizing label, but that is what bigotry is all about.

    No human being is illegal.

    Racism and bigotry should be called out here, even if Ian isn’t going to moderate it.

  64. anon

    You have to wonder if the same results would have happen if the moderates had not coalesce around Biden before Super Tuesday.

    Bernie does have black support, TomR. He just does not have older voters over middle age, whether it’s black or white.

    Older blacks voted against their interests when they voted for Biden over Bernie. Whatever explanations will be made will try to be respectful as to not paint them as low information, but what can be said when they overwhelmingly vote for a WASP who has voted for racist policies throughout his career over the progressive Jew who fought for civil rights since college? If a person’s reason for voting for Biden is that he’s better known or because he was Obama’s VP, that’s just not good enough excuse.

    Oh well. Let the Dems lose. Or if they win, their dementia patient will have a lot on his hands including Coronavirus and probably a worsening economy. Bernie deserves a break and he needs to move away from the toxic Democratic Party once and for all.

  65. Hugh

    Who made anonone the gatekeeper of the English language?

    From the BLS,

    “In 2018, there were 28.2 million foreign-born persons in the U.S. labor force, comprising 17.4 percent of the total.

    Hispanics accounted for nearly half of the foreign-born labor force in 2018, and Asians accounted for one-quarter.”

    The BLS doesn’t track the legal status of these workers. It is disingenuous to pretend that these numbers don’t have a major depressive effects on wages and working conditions of native-born workers or that many of these workers are here illegally.

    As I have said before, I wish the Democrats well in their efforts to get rid of Trump, but after the DNC’s coup against Sanders and that Biden is an anti-progressive neoliberal with significant dementia, they don’t represent me and are against most of what I believe. They don’t own me or my vote. They clearly don’t want it, and I have no intention of giving it to them.

  66. highrpm

    context. which gaming table does one choose to pull up a chair and ask for a hand. rules of the game. rule of law. if one does not play by the “rules” of the context one’s chosen, than one’s not playing fairly. if one does not not drive by the rules of the road, that one endangers both oneself and others passing by.

    so yes a human being can be illegal. given the rules of the game that human being chose to play.

    two choose to f*** for recreation when one is fertile, and then one gets pregnant. who owns the offspring? who takes responsibility for caring and developing that intelligent sentient being? the state? the collective. where was the collective in the bed when the choice to f*** was made? did the collective make the choice?

    sovereignty. owning the consequences of one’s choice. as opposed to playing the victim/ entitlement game.

  67. @someofparts

    “A more detailed breakdown of the cheating:

    Given the probable accurate votes tallies indicated here, Bernie won and he won big.”

    Thanks for this. I have to wonder, though, why more people aren’t angered, or at least interested, in this. It’s one thing if the margin of cheating is 4 or 7 percent. It’s another if the margin of cheating can be flexibly expanded to knock out any uppity reformer who will ever come along. Both are bad, but by “whistling past the graveyard” on this issue, reform will remain on the margins, ‘forever’. The plutocracy will continue ruling.

    IMNSHO, at this point, the best thing Bernie could do for future generations is not concede anything until the voting fraud problem is fully exposed. And that means bringing it up hard and often in the next debate. Also, if he were to put the exit poll discrepancies front and center on his website, I’ll bet at least Tucker Carlson would pick up on it. That might be enough to split the seam.

    I don’t think Sanders has it in him, but maybe some of his followers can force him on this issue. Bernie will probably settle for some Bernie-ish things in the Democratic platform, which will be promptly abandoned if Biden wins.

    Also, I wonder if Gabbard has made any noises about this.

  68. Stirling S Newberry

    This is not the first time “stupid” has won. The elites think they can run anything and win. They’re right: the can run anything and win. But they can not govern.


    metamars, it shows us why Stoller and Greenwald get the twitter blue check seal of approval. They are opposition containment. Both refuse to accept the primaries are rigged. For this so-called “movement” to ever be effective, it must shed itself of ALL insiders, and that includes the likes of Stoller, Greenwald, Caitlin Johnson and Naked Capitalism and its myriad Russian trolls. Anyone with a twitter blue check seal of approval is automatically barred and banned. The twitter blue check seal of approval means they’re CIA compliant & approved.

    Bernie is moments away from jumping on Biden’s senile bandwagon. As I’ve said, he’s not fit to hold Castro’s jock. He’s not a leader. He’s a politician interested in perpetuating his political career and he has his legacy to consider.

    Until Joe & Mika are forced to flee the country or are forced to pick watermelons in the hot & sultry fields of rural Alabama, nothing will change. We will know we have arrived when the tables are turned on the likes of Joe & Mika. They were placating Bernie’s supporters today saying Bernie has made an impact and maybe, perhaps, in ten years or more America will finally be ready for universal healthcare but not in a socialist kind of way. Too funny. Ten years. Unreal. But not surprising. Joe & Mika have incredible reach and influence and they have been great in making it appear Biden’s sudden resurgence isn’t a fix and instead is just a natural phenomenon that just suddenly and miraculously manifested out of thin air.

  70. Will

    I have to give a couple hat tips. What a good discussion! KT you are a pleasure to read, Willy keep the faith, Mark you are making some great points in a great way, Ten Bears you brought a smile to my face with your post.

    1) About this accusation of racism…. the Archdruid posted something quite a few years back that has changed the way I see politics forever:

    Knowing many stories is wisdom.
    Knowing no stories is ignorance.
    Knowing only one story is death.

    You have to understand that for quite a large contingent of on-line commenters (due to shortcomings in their education) there is but one lens to view the US. That lens is ______-ism. Every single issue will be brought under the domain of racism, sexism, whatever. Any attempt to point out that the issue at hand doesn’t fit into that mold as well as security, economics, whatever is doomed to fail in any discussion with them.

    They know one story. It is all they will ever know.

    2) One way, among many, to look at Bernie’s campaign failure is to recognize that there is a limited amount of “populist capital” among active voters. Within the democratic party there is substantially LESS of this capital because Trump stole it from them. It is what won him the White House.

    There is substantial overlap between what Bernie and Donald ran on. One way to look at this failure is to admit that maybe they need to be stolen back. And there lies the problem. Far too many in the party believe point #1 just as Anonone does. And that makes it very difficult to attract what they dismissively call “white working class voters”. The group of populists that Trump stole.

    I don’t think this is settled yet. A good many of the Republican elite want to ditch Trump just like the Democratic elite did to Bernie. The parties will continue to morph until a consensus is reached.


  71. Mallam

    Wow, the results look exactly as I said. Actually, worse, since Bernie is barely winning Washington. You could know this purely by figuring out the demographics of Sanders coalition, who was turning out to vote at higher numbers, and projecting that from state to state. It was also predictable from the beginning because of Bernie’s terrible numbers among old people, and old people are predisposed to voting at much higher rates than young people. If you want to lament that 96% of black voters over age of 65 who live in Mississippi are “The Establishment” or are too stupid, well you’ve just explained why you’ll be stuck in a loop of endless grievances, rather than figuring out a way to win. The path must be through those voters, or you will lose. This is all changing, as the demographic split among age is right along the 45-50 barrier. Unfortunately the electorate is going to keep getting older.

    You know what would allow the left to win? If we actually do what Republicans accuse us of doing: increase immigration and legalize more citizens who are predisposed to voting for the left party, the one that doesn’t rely on white identity politics. But comments are already talking about how bad immigration is. That’s a better plan for winning to me, but what do I know?

  72. nihil obstet

    Obama has been an enormous problem. Blacks and progressive/liberal whites spent his entire presidency and subsequent career in denial. They’ve mentally bounced between rhetoric and reality, seeing one and not-seeing the other and then reversing which they see and not-see. (For you sci-fi fans, I got the seeing and not-seeing as concepts from China Mieville’s The City and the City).

    This commentariat doesn’t need to review how disastrous Obama’s presidency was. Back during the Obama years, if I remember correctly, Ian kept noting that the left needed to take down Obama from the left.

    But there are two problems stemming from Obama’s being African-American. First, there’s the psychological one. Don’t we all fantasize about being right and our opponents being wrong? I mean, being so right that even those opponents eventually have to grovel before our manifest rightness? Oh, yeah!!! Well, it’s actually happened once in my lifetime, and that was the civil rights movement. The “conservative” public intellectuals and journalists who defended segregation ended up slinking away in shame as liberals rejoiced. It’s hard for “liberals” to let go of that triumph.

    Second, America was founded on two great crimes, each a holocaust: the elimination of the indigenous peoples and the importation and slavery of blacks, extending by means other than slavery really through today, as any look at economic standing and incarceration statistics will show. One of the signs of continued injustice is the lack of blacks throughout the civil organization of our society. This unfortunately translates into consciously using an inappropriate criterion (race) to offset the bias that has unjustly constituted a great crime. So race ends up being used unfairly both for and against Obama. For most other blacks, Obama does not differ from white presidents, but he is criticized for things that they weren’t. For white liberals, having a black president is important as an affirmation of progress and equality.

    Both these problems are legitimate. But they created a denial of reality that I think habituated the electorate to a kind of mental compartmentalization. It also makes a certain kind of history determinant. So now the Democratic party members see the desirability of a long-term Democrat who came in when the party was associated with progressive policies while not-seeing that this hack made a career out of trying to stop them.

  73. Ché Pasa

    Welp, the Biden Surge continues much as predicted. The Michigan loss must have stung at Sanders’ HQ, but it shouldn’t have been unanticipated. Nor should various methods of voter suppression and vote rigging. This is the USA (!) and this is how politics and elections have been done in this country since dirt was new. The idea that it shouldn’t be that way is fine, but it is that way nonetheless. Best to deal with the reality and win in spite of it

    On the other hand, people still put way to much faith in elections to get what they want — politically, socially, legally, economically. Bernie in the White House would make a difference, sure. But it’s not enough. Not even close to enough. Especially when nearly the whole system of rule is aligned against him and his program.

    It’s not so for Old Joe. For good or ill, the money and power people, and much of the governing class are comfortable enough with his inadequacies to let things play out the way they will. If he’s the Dem nominee and the Trump regime continues to bollox the COVID-19 response, there’d be little reason not to replace one old man with little or no plan in the White House with another.

    But I’m still not convinced Old Joe will be the nominee. I’m certain Bernie won’t be. A galvanizing figure from out of nowhere more likely will be.

    It’s a long time till July, even longer till November. Things have been changing so fast so much lately that it wouldn’t even surprise me if whoever winds up in the presidency isn’t elected.

    Stranger things have happened.

  74. Willy


    Feel free to do some homework on Cesar Chavez. Was he being racist on behalf of the United Farm Workers? Or was he being racist as a community activist for his Latino bretheren?

    I’m interested to see if that might clear up your confusion about rasicm vs. the progressive vote dilemma.


    There is no overlap between Bernie and Trump whatsoever. They are 180 degrees of separation. Trump is a degenerate con man who will say and do anything to increase his brand awareness. He and Bernie are diametrically opposed.

  76. Willy

    Some time ago I went on my own little quest to learn more about these “deplorables”.

    Where are all these racists coming from? What I found was stressed workers of every race who believed they had no other choice but to put their faith in a silly narcissist, since the other side had proven that they didn’t care about them anymore. It seemed that the more others called them “deplorables”, the more they embraced the name. Why would anybody do this? Because they were racist? Nope. It was because they were scared and desperate and spiteful over having been abandoned. I remember an old phrase:

    Never mess with a mans livelihood.

    After Trump threw workers some ‘results’, such as they were, the scum who actually were racists came out of the woodwork in their small numbers believing that Trump was speaking for them and them alone. Maybe Trump really is that way, but I really think narcissists prefer the worshipful admiration from the many regardless of race over that from a few skinheads. He is known to have hired many illegals himself BTW. The media inflated all of that to make it seem like millions of working Americans might actually be deplorable racists. And so we then got acting out at the same level as what you might expect from your own teenage kid who thinks they’ve been misunderstood.

    But I think we’ve figured out how the media rolls these days.

    AOC frequently states that 60% of all Americans make less than $40K a year and that many of those are one job loss away from the street. That’s a lot of potential votes. That’s why Bernie had to do more than just promise to tax billionaires for M4A. He had to persuade workers that he would stop the wage race to the bottom while also keeping the economy stable for everybody else.

    I do believe that the best way to create racists is to swamp their jobs with illegals, label them deplorables, then continuously shame them as being worse than Nazis.

  77. StewartM


    You know what would allow the left to win? If we actually do what Republicans accuse us of doing: increase immigration and legalize more citizens who are predisposed to voting for the left party, the one that doesn’t rely on white identity politics. But comments are already talking about how bad immigration is.

    Actually, no, Mallam, not all of us Bernie supporters are anti-immigration. In fact, the reason I am pro-immigration is because ‘socialism’ largely solves (to a reasonable extent) the immigration issue by removing the need for employment and income from the hands from “Daddy Warbucks” deciding how many workers should be employed not on any objective measure of need, but based on maximizing his own short-term profits. We actually have, objectively speaking from a ‘needs’ appraisal, both in the private and public sectors, both a shortage of workers while we have under- and unemployment.

    I’ve recounted how Wall Street drives private companies into the ditch by short-term management (so did Ian, “burning down the house to heat it” is the way he puts it) but it’s also in the public sector. For instance, for all the crying about the deficit by people (including Biden) one of the ways to ‘fix’ the deficit–maybe even to eliminate it altogether even with our too-low tax rates–is for the IRS to hire more auditors to audit the tax returns of the rich. But instead, the IRS says it’s largely given up doing just that because it requires more manpower that they don’t have, and they don’t have that manpower due to employment/budget cuts pushed through Republican Congresses, pushed through precisely to keep the IRS off the donor class’s backs.


    Anthony raises a great point. I don’t see how Biden can legitimately win in the general, meaning I don’t see how he can win without cheating like his superpac is doing in the primary. Most if not all of Bernie’s supporters are not going to vote for him and that’s a sizable percentage. Blacks can’t make up for that loss and won’t. But, let’s say Biden wins the general by hook or crook. The recession cum depression will be ripening by that time if the general election is even held and not canceled or postponed. Biden will be inheriting a sinking ship and it will be blamed on him. He’s hardly the inspiration needed to pull through such a turbulent time. More of the neoliberal agenda amidst a severe recession that may turn depression will just make matters worse. There are no neoliberal tricks left in the bag. So, it would mean the end of the Dem party as we know it but it will also quite possibly mean the ascension of a brutal and capable fascist autocrat. Not that Clyburn cares, he’ll be dead in a few short years but his black brethren, his black brothers, they’ll pay the price for his arrogant ignorance. Blacks will pay dearly under the auspices of a brutal, capable fascist autocrat. It will set them back a couple of centuries and may be the end of them for good, in America at least. This is what Clyburn is doing. He’s greasing the skids for a genocide of blacks. He’s a clueless moron. A grifter on the corporate take at the expense of black people and poor people of all colors and ethnicities.

  79. Willy

    The problem is that successful narcissists are better than the honest integrous at getting people to follow them.

    I think it’s because the former are better at seeing and accepting reality, because they just don’t give a shit about anything but themselves.

  80. StewartM


    Lucky us, Obama still runs the party. He is going to get Trump elected twice.

    Or we’ll get Biden–who is essentially Joe Lieberman. The online progressive moment like DKos that was born to take down Joe Lieberman now will cheer on essentially a clone in 2020. That’s progress for ya!

    (And remember, Obama was also Joe’s friend. Few paid attention to that during the hopey-changey years)

    And to see how Obama, the darling of these, responded to them:

    Obama’s willingness to ignore the bloggers’ demands foreshadowed the difficulties the netroots would encounter once Democrats began wielding power. Obama’s groundbreaking campaign tapped the power of the internet, but it did so largely without the help of progressive blogosphere leaders. Matt Stoller, an early blogger who is now a fellow at the Open Markets Institute, gave Boehlert a clear-eyed assessment of the Obama campaign’s posture toward the blogosphere: “They don’t care what we think. … Their logistical operations are remarkable, their campaign structure is phenomenal, and we’re not a part of it.”

  81. Zachary Smith

    But I’m still not convinced Old Joe will be the nominee. I’m certain Bernie won’t be. A galvanizing figure from out of nowhere more likely will be.

    Same here. Resurrecting Biden will, I think, just be simply the way They stopped Sanders. My money would be on one of the quasi-Republican women. Harris, Klobuchar, or both. Even Warren.

    The Powers That Be really do have us by the plums – the only alternative to their hand-picked party hacks is Trump.

  82. Will

    See, 450,org, that is why people like yourself are so useless in getting anything constructive done. You cannot get your brain around the simple fact that there are allies you need to make this change happen and you cannot get them if you continue to dismiss them all as racists and militia members.

    You want a few occasions where Trump and Sanders policy overlap and both contradict that policy desired by our elites?

    1) Free trade – both openly and energetically attacked this position
    2) Immigration – again both attacked massive immigration as a big business giveaway… and Sanders folded on this issue once he started his presidential run.
    3) Health Care – both attacked the current system as costly and inefficient…. and Trump folded on this issue post-election.
    4) Wars of Empire – both are completely at odds with the current buffet of wars that the US has found itself mired in. Trump has been forced to mouth off to Russia because of the imbecilic investigation of his imaginary conspiracy to win the election by having a room full of unemployed Russians make mean comments to people online…. snort.

    These are 4 of the 5 most likely positions where populists are willing to throw their weight behind someone who can change the status quo. The 5th being the financialized nature of the country which will become an issue again if the possible upcoming recession causes more bailouts and giveaways. Bernie has the inside lane on this one and Trump would be vulnerable to attack if it happens….

    Bernie but not Biden.

    Again, you cannot gain allies by insulting them. Especially when such criticism is completely unwarranted. You want to know why Bernie lost? Look in the mirror. Those who want to throw away half of their potential movement are doomed at the start.


  83. StewartM


    The BLS doesn’t track the legal status of these workers. It is disingenuous to pretend that these numbers don’t have a major depressive effects on wages and working conditions of native-born workers or that many of these workers are here illegally.

    Would you then argue that women entering the workforce depressed wages and working conditions?

    In 1950, the US workforce was 62 million. c. 18 million were women.

    In 1980, the US workforce was 107 million, c, 45 million were women.

    That’s a 72.5 % jump in the labor force, which outstrips the 45 % growth rate in the overall US population. The increase in this was largely driven by women–a 25 % increase from 18 % to 43%. We not only have more workers, we have more people working compared to our overall population. So according to your line of reasoning, we should have seen wages and working conditions plummet from 1950 to 1980. But while there were some hiccups in the 1970s (and the oil shocks, and the beginnings of our current neoliberal policy date back to then) but overall hourly wages actually peaked in the 1970s.

    So the US economy can absorb a 25 % + hit in additional workers in 1950-1980, additional to the male participants, but can’t absorb a mere 17.4 % increase today? The US population increase from 1980 to today is almost exactly the same — 45 %– but the workforce has grown only 54 %. Some of that can be explained by the baby bust, but a question that should be asked if “why do we ‘need’ fewer workers’? Who decides that? Wall Street?

  84. Zachary Smith

    The DNC has destroyed Sanders. The link author speculates what they might do next.

  85. Jeff in Texas

    Right– it’s not Mexican immigrants’ fault that everything from coding to legal research is now done in India by PhDs making pennies an hour. It’s not Mexican immigrants’ fault that we have offshored our entire manufacturing base.

  86. anon

    #LoseWithBiden and #demexit are trending on Twitter and Jill Stein’s tweets are on fire:

    This is why we need third party candidates on the left who aren’t bound by the Dem Party to speak truth to power.

    Also trending is a graph showing that Biden loses big with every voting age demographic under 50 years old, lol. The DNC better hope and pray that older voters and those who will vote for anyone just to remove Trump come out in droves on Election Day, otherwise he is toast. If young people did not come out in large numbers for Bernie, they certainly will not do so for Biden.

  87. Mallam

    The hard Bircher And Libertarian right spends years taking over the Republican Party and they control all levels of power because they win primaries, providing clear evidence of how to take over a party.

    And yet, still, right now, you’re talking up third parties because you’d rather be a loser and cry into your shirt and make plain your irrelevance. Get a new idea. All you’re doing is making yourself irrelevant. Third party voting isn’t going to happen in 2020, it will be low compared to 2016, a historically high rate of 6%. The most loyal Dem voting base — black voters — pushed Biden to the nomination. You can’t have power if you have no leverage. But sure, maybe cutting off some limbs will make them pay attention to you 🙄


    Shorter Mallam: Vote Biden so he can lock up more blacks so they can manufacture hand sanitizer for free as prison slaves.

  89. Mallam

    Hey, you do what you want. I look at results and see what’s working and what’s not. Your plan is to dig a niche online community that yells and has no power, I want to advance left politics. I warned what the results would be and I don’t live in fantasy world. I’m sure another third party challenge will move the country to the left. Any day now. Any day now…

  90. different clue


    Thank you for your interest in my comment. I am always happy to hear from you. Please let me know if you have any other concerns.

  91. different clue


    Ever since the FSM ( Fake Stream Media) dropped the Big Acoustic MuffleCone of Silence over candidate Gabbard, it is hard to hear anything she says about anything. So it would be hard to know if or when Gabbard begins to address this.

  92. different clue

    Whomever the Catfood Democrat elites install as their PrezNom Candidate, they will say they chose that person based on their perception of that person’s “electability”.

    If Trump wins, will that discredit the Catfood Democrats’ arguments in favor of picking a nominee based on “electability”?

  93. Benjamin


    “And for all you planning to sit out a Biden-Trump election, thanks for losing the Supreme Court for the much of thebrest of the century, and blowing off climate reforms for good.”

    Spare us the DNC talking points. At most what we’d get from Biden is a ‘moderate’ Republican nominee for the court, just like Obama tried.

    As for climate change, we’re well past the point of reforms having any effect. Nothing short of a Green New Deal will be adequate, and probably not even that. Biden has shown exactly zero evidence that he’ll do anything more than Obama’s token tweaking. He might roll back some of Trump’s more ludicrous changes, but that’s it (and don’t be surprised if much of what Trump has done is quietly continued).

    “Biden is not a 21st Century Republican and doesn’t act, look, walk, quack, or vote like one.”

    You’re right. He’s a 20th century Republican.

  94. Hugh

    StewartM, the women entering the workforce were US citizens. To be foreign-born means that person did not start out a US citizen. Apparently, you have difficulty distinguishing between the two. We as a society have no responsibility to bring people into country and confer citizenship and/or jobs upon them to the detriment of US citizens.

    I would note that women are doubly discriminated against as they make less than men and see what wages they do make depressed by immigrant labor.

  95. Hugh

    different clue, electability for the Democratic party Establishment means the candidate they want. It means that candidate can dispense with standing for or defending anything because electable.

    We keep getting these ghastly choices. Sometimes it’s the party’s fault. Sometimes it’s ours. But either way things are going to continue to get worse and are never going to get better as long as we allow and participate in such a self-destructive process.

  96. Bramlet Abercrombie


    How does voting for Joe Biden advance left politics?

  97. Mallam

    Oh man, this is fantastic:

    “ Last weekend, a few days after Elizabeth Warren dropped out, Shakir and one of his deputy campaign managers, Ari Rabin-Havt, started contacting her top staffers and supporters to see what could be done to bring together the two camps before the primaries on Tuesday.

    Sanders spoke to Warren a “handful” of times throughout the week, a campaign aide confirmed, but she has declined to offer her endorsement.

    Several leading figures in Warren’s circle balked at the outreach effort — Sanders and his aides, they said, had months to lay the groundwork for that kind of partnership, but only did so this week from a position of desperation. About a month ago, when it was clear that Warren had little chance to win, one such person said they put out feelers to Sanders’s operation in an attempt to start a running conversation. They showed little interest, the person said, in reciprocating.”

    So for all y’all’s bullshit about Warren, it was in fact Bernie who was the problem. Warren’s team puts out feelers after NH, and Team Bernie rebuffed the effort. “Bend the knee”. What a failure.

  98. highrpm

    “you must…you must show them that you are capable of not voting for them.”

    youtube Lawrence O’Donnell’s Advice for the Left Will Amaze You

    today, cenk uygur caves to them!?!, as bernie did in 2016, advising his followers to vote for the demo empty shoe biden choice. just the opposite o’donnell’s advice. (and bernie’s reflexive mister nice guy responses.)…

    the young progressives and left must show the old man demo establishment, the no changers, that they will lose for what they have done. they must vote against the establishment, and show these oldster power brokers that their backroom manipulations utterly backfired in their faces. that they failed. the youngsters must announce, as a block if they can, they’re voting against the demo establishment empty shoe biden. the oldsters must know ASAP, NOW, they will lose in november. and that trump will win. period. done deal. unless…..bernie is the democratic party choice.

    if this situation does not reverse for the better, and bernie wins the parties choice, i am voting trump.

    it is more important for me that the arm twisters nochangers powerbrokers get their strangle hold broken and yield to the youngsters than anything else. time is way past to yield demo power to the next generations. (the demos must now pay for pushing biden when joeie supported no bankruptcy for student loans the youngsters must now play hard ball. #NoVoteJoe.)

    as bad as trump is, the demo establishment power brokers must be shown the door.

    “you must…you must show them that you are capable of not voting for them.”

  99. highrpm

    youtube Jake Tapper Suddenly Realizes Joe Biden Could Lose

    the youngsters must figure out how to communicate this message en masse, asap, so that bernie is the party choice at the convention in milwaukee.

  100. anon

    I will vote for down-ticket progressive Dems. I’ll withhold my vote or vote Green for president. If asked publicly I’ll appease the Dem sheep by saying I’ll vote for Biden. No point in arguing with people who don’t understand the urgency of pushing for a New Green Deal and progressive agenda.

  101. different clue

    At this point, I hope that the Sanders community and the Gabbard community both separately consider working to get the Sanders name AND the Gabbard name onto each of the fifty state ballots as a possible presidential pick to maybe vote for.

    If those names are on the ballots, there is a chance that more people will vote for one or the other of them than will necessarily vote Green or other existing Third Party.

    It would also give Gabbard a reason to keep having rallies and events and ads all the way to Election Day. She would probably be disturbed by the thought of her brothers and sisters in arms being led by a deeply senile Commander in Chief. But she can’t run if she isn’t on the ballots. And she can’t put herself there.

    I am wearily resigned to the sad fact that Sanders will campaign for Senator Sloppy Dead Cabbage Walking. We can discuss Sanders’s spiritual and personality/psychological weaknesses at some future point.

    Just because Sanders will Support The Blue No Matter Who doesn’t mean that all ( or any) of the Sanders Movement people have to do the same. They can put Sanders’s name on all 50 state ballots even if Sanders tells them not to. If the name is there, it might draw votes from part of the ” I’m mad as hell! And I’m not going to take it Any MORE!!” community.

  102. Hugh

    I heard part of a speech by Biden where he praised Sanders and called for unity. It sounded very nice. The subtext is OK, we spiked Sanders’ candidacy because it looked like he might actually catch on and we will make sure that all of his issues will never see the light of day. But forget that. Unity.

    As Benjamin noted in a previous comment Jim Clyburn, the third ranking Democrat in the House and a close ally of Pelosi, has called for shutting down the remaining primaries and cancelling further debates because it is just asking for trouble (Biden making mistakes) to keep the process going. It was a surprisingly open admission that a “democratic” process is just window dressing for the rubes. Once the PTB have the result they want. It’s time to dump the pretense.

  103. Benjamin


    Warren is a lying snake, so I wouldn’t put it past her staffers to also be lying.

    Regardless, that’s just the campaign itself doing their own version of ‘a Bernie Bro was mean to me, so I’m denying poor people healthcare’. If Warren actually cared about progressive policies, she would have endorsed Sanders automatically. ‘Groundwork’ was not needed; they’re supposed to already be on the same page.


    The Democrats would rather lose with Biden than win with Sanders. Beating Trump was never the goal; stopping a progressive takeover of the party was.

  104. different clue

    The only people who are TRULY rubes in all this are those who find shutting-the-process-down and especially no-more-debates to be acceptable.

    Hopefully Sanders and his group will inSIST on the next debates. Make the DNC refuse in public. Hopefully Sanders and Gabbard will keep running right till the Convention.

    If the DNC refuses to allow Biden into another debate, the Sanders group can put on the stage an empty chair with Biden’s picture on it. If only Sanders had a little bit of that Roger Stone instinct, he and his group could get a crash test dummy and put that in the empty chair, with Biden’s picture on its head.

    If the FSM ( Fake Stream Media) collaborates with the DNC in not even broadcasting a debate, Sanders could offer to attend a debate set-up on Fox News, with the Empty Chair and another chair with Tulsi Gabbard sitting in it and also debating.

  105. Ivory Bill Woodpecker

    Quoting a thread commenter over on Wonkette:

    Weird how the Sanders supporters voter out reach strategy of “your candidate sucks and you are an uninformed establishment dumbass if you don’t vote for Bernie no you are the offensive angry one shut up” didn’t work out so well.


  106. KT Chong

    Seriously at this point is is delusional and in denial to believe Bernie Sanders can still win the Democratic primary.

  107. KT Chong

    Okay, so lay out the path and math for me: of the remaining states in the primary race, which of them will Bernie Sanders likely win a blowout majority over Joe Biden, make up the differences and then let Bernie overtake Biden?

  108. Hugh

    KT, what’s your point? It has been standard Democratic operating procedure not to fight for anything unless there is such overwhelming support for it that no fight is necessary. Bernie doesn’t have any particular obligation to Biden but Sanders does have an obligation to his supporters to fight for them, even if he can’t win.

    Weird, IBW, how the Democratic Establishment rigged the primary process this time just like it did in 2016 and have told Bernie supporters again: screw you, suck it up, you must vote for our choice because TINA. That didn’t work out so well in 2016, did it? What makes you think it will work out better this time?

  109. bruce wilder

    @ dc If elected, Biden would be a pioneer, breaking the dirt ceiling as the first President representing the vegetable kingdom. So instead of a crash dummy in the otherwise empty chair, maybe a rutabaga?

    @Ivory In some respects I think you have a valid point in that the Sanders campaign mobilization strategy and tactics inspired a countermobilization larger than they could handle. All political movements encounter the problem that every action creates a reaction and sometimes the reaction mounts great force.

    Democracies often require people to agree to disagree on the rationalization, while “compromising” on carefully balanced policy action that different people accept for a variety of contradictory reasons. It does seem to me that American political culture places a premium on right thoughts and deprecates respectful engagement. If you want to, say, enact M4all, you cannot do it by righteously trying to get 50%+1 to enact medical care as a human right. Some people including Bernie revel in that kind of rhetoric; they would almost rather conquer consciousness on that score than build a functioning institution. I think it is politically necessary to accommodate many points of view: a pragmatic administrative efficiency argument needs an airing. Every objection cannot be persuasive met by scorn. Some people instinctively object to, “free!” – – and they are not necessarily wrong to do so, especially with respect to particular details that might well apply to working out a policy design of genuine benefit to the whole society. People have to have some tolerance both for systems that are necessarily complex in some respects, even when they are arguing for simple principles (e.g. “single-payer”) and a diversity of (opposing or contradictory) viewpoints.

    Where I disagree with you, Ivory, is in thinking anger is the problem. Anger is appropriate.

    A large fraction — maybe a majority — is cognitively disengaged and get impatient with people who have been convinced by elaborate considerations or arguments. People who could be drawn in, say, by Russia,Russia,Russia may not exactly be stupid, but they also are not available for critical thought. Joining the Greek chorus reciting the poetry of the resistance was never a winning strategy for the left.

    In extreme times, radicalism is appropriate, but it is not going to make sense to many on first and reluctant engagement. But, joining the fools and tools in wonderland does not work either.

  110. Willy

    bruce, I dont think Ivory can read a comment that long.

  111. bruce wilder

    perhaps not, Willy. They dice rutabega before cooking.

  112. Ivory Bill Woodpecker

    Well, Hugh, this time the Democratic Party is not running a victim of the most lavishly-funded and well-organized smear campaign since Goebbels & Co. went after (((Those People))).

    Also, many people either voted for Benedict Donald as a protest or a lark, or did not bother to vote at all, because, like most other people–including, by some accounts, Benny Don himself–thought the Smear Campaign Victim was a shoo-in.

    They also probably thought, “Oh, even if he does win, how bad could he be?”.

    Now they know.

    If the Democratic Party can lock down the moderate suburbanites, that would leave the Treason Party (fka GOP) saying, “Help us, Sith Emperor Vladimir. You’re our only hope.”

    And then, why would the DP need the mental adolescents of the “Dirtbag Left” for anything?

    If you lot take your ball and go home and the DP wins anyway, you will have no place at the table of the DP, and the Treason Party, even in defeat, won’t give you a place at their table, either.

    It’s your choice, and your gamble.

    Only remember, again, this time Benedict Donald won’t have the luxury of running against a candidate who has been thoroughly and expertly smeared for the past 30 or so years (but who somehow won a majority of the popular vote, anyway).

  113. different clue

    @ K T Chong,

    At this point, it is about Sanders doing his part to leave behind a whole movement-load of people
    still organized and still motivated. The best way to do that is to keep running and contesting all the way through the Convention.

    That’s what Clinton did versus Obama ( and at that time Clinton looked like the better choice and would have been better likely to win without sneaky DNC rule changes.) Clinton’s stiff resistance until she and Obama were both summoned to the Bilderberg Society meeting near Chantilly, Virginia and given an offer they couldn’t refuse left behind a very energised and devoted Clinton movement.

    If Sanders does the same thing this time around, he will leave behind the same sort of movement behind him. And if that movement is ready to find other leaders to lead the movement where the movement wants to go, the movement might get somewhere.

    But if Sanders stops contesting and leading now . . . before the Convention itself . . . he will demotivate and demobilize all the people who worked very hard on his behalf in their own interests. They will decide their interests will never be served and they will go home and fester till some genuine social mass-destruction opportunity gives them an opening to get broad spectrum revenge.

  114. Mojave Wolf

    I hope Ian is correct and Bernie still has a shot, tho at this point my take is that if Biden started talking to a non existent Corn Pop about wanting to have sex with a ten year old in the front row of his CNN town hall on live TV and asked her to undress, I’m pretty sure the MSM would blame it on Putin and over half the Dem electorate would at least pretend to buy it.

    Typing from my phone on the road, so post mortems will have to wait. I confess to have given up on the primary, tho I applaud those of you still trying. If I had the time to spare I’d still be trying too.

    But, imo, realistically, the only question left for me this election cycle (barring a miracle) is whether to write in Tulsi in the general (my preference) or to go full on “we must re-elect Trump to defeat the uniquely dangerous threat of the contemporary Democratic party” (and besides that he actually is the lesser evil, imo, even in a straight up forget about influencing the future course of events beyond the next four years comparison). Oh, and whether to vote against ALL mainstream Dems in retaliation, and because the DNC must be destroyed for the world to have any hope.

    With regard to Ian’s comment “the American people really don’t want these various good things”, from what I’ve gathered from exit interviews, they do mostly want those things, but have been brainwashed into believing both that they can’t possibly have them, and that Trump is somehow super scary (not 1/5 or 1/10 the damage of Bush, and could make the argument that he’s been less bad than Clinton or Obama. Not sure whether or not it’s true, but could easily make the case), AND that someone who is either as bad or noticably worse than Hillary in every way plus has very obvious not-that early dementia is “most electable”.

    Frightening how easy it is to manipulate people. If the corporate establishment can get away with this they can get away with anything. Therefore, Biden must lose. It is very sad that I shall not endear myself to 450 or Mandos or Ivory Bill with this comment, but hopefully I will survive the heart break.

    Shall try to write a “why things went the way they did” comment before end of this weekend. Probably won’t be able to check back in until then.

  115. Hugh

    Let’s see. If progressives help Biden get elected, we will be written off and forgotten by him and the Democratic party 5 seconds after they have the votes they need. On the other hand, no matter what, if Biden loses, we will be blamed for it. So many incentives to choose from…

  116. different clue

    Another reason Sanders is acting weaker than we wish could well be that he understands he would be physically assassinated if he won. Adolph Reed offers that social observation while being interviewed on a web-based TV show. ( Adolph Reed is know for predicting and describing ” the real Obama” long before anyone else did.)

    Here is the link to the Adolph Reed interview.

    The particular ” set-up” for that particular observation begins at 7:00 minutes on the time slide-bar at the bottom of the You Tube video . . . for those who want to get right to that quote without first learning any of the helpful context.

  117. Mallam


    This reporting comes directly from Ruby Cramer at Buzzfeed News who is covering the Bernie campaign. Sorry if reality interferes with your narrative about the Lying Snake Warren, but Bernie World were the dumb dumbs who rejected possibility of endorsement when they could have used it. Now they’re desperate losers who have no friends and are on an island by themselves. That’s what “coalition building” means. You can’t just shit on everyone, demand they bend the knee, and then get pissed off when it doesn’t happen. If they weren’t trying to secure her endorsement when it mattered, they wouldn’t be able to effectively govern and would be like Jimmy Carter. Sorry if your savior is piss poor at this part of governance.


    There are a hell of a lot of people commenting online who claim to be Bernie supporters who are conservative retards in progressive clothing. If the primaries are not rigged, which I believe they are in many ways toward Biden as the presumptive nominee, then what I just mentioned is the only explanation for the disparity that we’re seeing between voting in the real world versus online support for Bernie. Just one more example of the disparity between meat space and virtual world and increasingly our perception is that virtual world is meat space when it is anything but, although virtual space sure is usurping meat space and it’s increasingly affecting meat space and our behavior within it. COVFEFE-19 is a prime example but so too is politics. The coverage of COVFEFE-19 in virtual world is a large part of the problem with how we’re responding to it in meat space. Social media, and all of virtual world, is part & parcel of why the global system of increasing interconnectedness is so fragile & vulnerable to otherwise benign perturbations and COVFEFE-19 is revealing and exploiting that fragility.

    Will, your bud Jerry Wayne, Hard Hat Militia Man who’s so bed-wettingly frightened he needs an arsenal to protect him from the LGBTs, made an appearance on Fox. Too funny. He’s a union guy, allegedly, although I’d like to know the TRUE story behind this possible plant. This is the state of unions these days. Union guys are now conservative retards just as many or most police are. Wow. Just wow. Everything is upside down and inside out in this insane world. Wayne’s World, too funny. It’s as nuts as Krystal Ball. Seriously, Krystal Ball? The CIA loves to play games with these names, doesn’t it? Just who exactly bankrolls The Hill? I know the answer but do you? What’s her real name, I wonder? Surely it’s not Crystal Ball. The intelligence dickheads sure have a sense of sadistic humor, don’t they. Castro and Che knew what to do with these intelligence types — the sadistic torturers and murderers. Manipulating people and murdering them. Messing with their heads. Playing mind games on billions of people all the while providing cover for the destruction of the living planet. These are not humans, they’re demons, and Castro and Che were right to do what they did to them.

  119. Ivory Bill Woodpecker

    Let’s see. If progressives help Biden get elected, we will be written off and forgotten by him and the Democratic party 5 seconds after they have the votes they need. On the other hand, no matter what, if Biden loses, we will be blamed for it. So many incentives to choose from…

    Sucks to be you, eh, Hugh? 😈

    Meanwhile, Wolfie reinforced the Horseshoe Theory with his last comment about Benedict Donald being the lesser evil. Of course, the left-wing mental adolescents prefer their fellow mental adolescents on the right wing to the adults.


    Call me crazy, and many have, but I firmly believe there will be no elections in November due to COVFEFE-19. In fact, I firmly believe there will be a soft military coup and a temporary suspenison of the Constitution in order to get a handle on COVFEFE-19 and implement a proper and effective response. It’s clear Trump and his so-called “admin” are incapable and this cannot continue. Someone or something is going to have to step in and quite literally take charge, and the only org that can do that is the military. In fact, I wouldn’t be surprised if these discussions aren’t being had right now and the plan is being drawn up as I type. Business as usual isn’t cutting it and won’t cut it. The Trump/Bannon insanity is coming to an end, finally. The alleged germaphobe Trump is being undone by a germ. Too funny. Perfectly appropriate. Trump can’t bully a pandemic.

  121. Ivory Bill Woodpecker

    450 wonders about the apparent gap between online and real-world support for Sanders.

    How much of the online support for Sanders is real, versus how much of it is a handful of cyber-savvy operatives in St. Petersburg (and I don’t mean the one in Florida)?

  122. highrpm

    i’ve suffering aging-diminished IQ , and your writings are nigh undecipherable to me. corn popish, if one must attempt a simple wrap. entertaining to you the author, as are joe’s stories to himself, the storyteller. perhaps why joe appears not all that insufferable to you?

  123. Willy

    The Horseshoe theory only works if there’s actually a horseshoe. The idea that there can only possibly be left/right, right/wrong, with no other possibilities possible, works well for sheep, who can’t know the difference between a sheep dog just doing his job or the wolf that wants to eat them.

    The “Third Way” was just a sheep dog costume for wolves.

  124. Hugh

    No, IBW, my point is simply that there is no incentive for progressives to support Biden. Establishment Democrats offer us nothing. Screw them.

  125. Benjamin

    @Ivory Bill Woodpecker

    Except aggressiveness was never the strategy of the Sanders campaign. Nor was it the conduct of the vast majority of his supporters. The entire narrative of an army of mean ‘Bernie Bros’ was always bullshit, a story very useful for the establishment to push.

    But I see you’re well-versed in bullshit narratives, given that you’re still peddling Russiagate.

    And you’re not really in a position to try and smear other people as ‘mental adolescents’ when you won’t even except basic historical realities, like Clinton being the key voice in the destruction of Libya.


    Hilarious, since one of the actually valid criticisms of the Sanders campaign is that it’s been too damn nice and conciliatory. This meme of the ungracious Sanders isn’t going to stand the test of time.

    And again, if she was actually a progressive, she would have endorsed automatically. She didn’t, so she isn’t.

  126. Ivory Bill Woodpecker

    Benjamin, are you a native of Libya?

    If not, I fail to understand your apparent obsession with that country.

  127. Ivory Bill Woodpecker

    Again, I have found someone else who states my viewpoint better than I do:

    Jim Wright of Stonekettle Station:

  128. Benjamin

    @Ivory Bill Woodpecker

    The fact that you don’t seem to care about presidential candidates being warmongers is disturbing.

    As for your asinine link, ah yes. The ‘conspiracy theory’ that the DNC rigged the 2016 election against Sanders. The one that is, you know, objectively true, and that Wasserman Schultz resigned over.

    Meanwhile you guys continue to peddle the Russiagate conspiracy theory, the one that imploded months ago.

    You’re literally trying to rewrite history, mocking others as conspiracy theorists while you yourselves accuse others of being Russian bots and suggest Sanders record number of donations come from the Kremlin

    You’re a fucking moron.

  129. Ivory Bill Woodpecker


  130. Willy

    I went to IBWs link and found that while the actual post made some sense, from a certain point of view, in the comments section there were dozens of moronic comments so emotionally retarded they could’ve been made by troll farm bots. They reminded me of the time I tried to explain the ‘why’ we’re losing working class voters to Republicans and “anonone” called me a racist. Yeah, like that’s gonna persuade anybody.

    I’d rather debate with Scientologists.

    IBW, after Biden has our vote, we’ve lost our power. He will then do business as usual (minus the obvious dementia issues) and we’ll wind up right back here with another Trump working class “savior”.

    It seems inevitable that we’re going to have to have Trumps idiocy burn everything down for the next 4 years. But that’s better than 4 to 8 years of corporate corrupt Biden which will inevitably lead to another 4 to 8 years of Trump II.

    After all that AGW will be unstoppable, and China will own the world.

    It makes more sense to just get it all over with now.

  131. highrpm

    watching a tube of bernie sanders interviewed, 1991,
    “We Are Becoming a Second-Rate Nation: Bernie Sanders on Economics, Finance & Debt”
    recommend watching. (lends credence to jason brennan’s arguments in his book, Against Democracy. that a highly unqualified biden experienced a resurgence against this guy, indicates that very few are spending their precious time digging around beneath the mainstream media waters and the majority simply don’t care about their “democracy” enough.)

  132. StewartM


    StewartM, the women entering the workforce were US citizens. To be foreign-born means that person did not start out a US citizen. Apparently, you have difficulty distinguishing between the two.

    There is no difference between the two in a purely economic sense. Save if you keep immigrants enthralled in quasi-legal or illegal status, at the mercy of employers, then I’d agree, then immigrants *would* drive down wages and working conditions.

    Maybe that’s why the Repugs who are so shrill about illegals employ them? Illegal labor is a win for them.

  133. StewartM


    About a month ago, when it was clear that Warren had little chance to win, one such person said they put out feelers to Sanders’s operation in an attempt to start a running conversation. They showed little interest, the person said, in reciprocating.”

    How can this be reconciled with the accusations coming from the Warren camp about the ‘Sanders said a woman can’t win’, in roughly the same time frame? That doesn’t sound very conciliatory or sounds very consistent with the Warren camp desiring an agreement.

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