The horizon is not so far as we can see, but as far as we can imagine

Trump Has Proven the US Is Ripe for a Right-wing Coup

So, my take on Trump was always that he wasn’t a coup threat because he was too incompetent to pull it off, but that he was dangerous in the sense that he was showing someone who IS competent what was possible.

I still think that’s the case. He’s a boob.

But Trump has proven something important today: Capitol police, whose job is to protect Congress, just let the protestors through. They removed barriers and even took selfies with them.

If an Antifa group had tried this, swarming up, trying to climb through windows, shoving aside barriers, lounging in the Speaker’s Office, they’d have been shot down like dogs. Instead, I’m seeing arrest totals of around fifteen.

So what we now know is that when a serious right-wing mob or militia, one that really does intend to overthrown US government (this group did not), shows up, the cops will not stop them; their opposition will be no more than token.

At that point, it will come down to the military. In this case, it’s clear the military would not acquiesce, but for a President who gets the military onside enough to at least paralyze them, or is smart enough to make sure that the colonels or generals in charge of capitol-adjacent troops are on his side or will not intervene, the coup will succeed.

Anyway, the US is now a pre-coup nation. The necessary conditions are in place: vast inequality, poverty, a stabbed-in-the-back narrative, and a storyline that a right-wing President was overthrown through voter fraud. The police have indicated they will not stop a coup. All that remains necessary is to paralyze the military, or make a deal with them, and a smart, would-be dictator will be able to do the job.

I don’t say this lightly, and I don’t say it WILL happen. I don’t know if it will. But the conditions for it are there.

Note that the conditions are there, right now, for a right-wing coup, not a left-wing one. The cops and many members of the military are sympathetic to the right, not the left.

I’ve been saying for some time that left-wing people should consider getting out of the US if they can, and if not, figure out how to protect themselves from what is coming.

That is now more true than ever. A right-wing coup in the next ten years or so, or a civil war is now at least in coin-flip probability territory.

Might avoid it; might get lucky. But it is a bet and one with near equal odds.

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Trump Election Protestors Storm Capital to “Save Democracy”


Americans Have Found the Enemy, and It Is They


  1. S Brennan

    “If an Antifa group had tried this, swarming up, trying to climb thru windows, shoving aside barriers, lounging in the Speaker’s Office, they’d have been shot down like dogs.”

    Horseshit Ian, Antifa-ists with full neoD support lounged on Seattle’s capital hill for four months this past summer, they forced the Seattle Police to abandon their headquarters and all…to your polite applause.

    WTF, where is this post’s bullshit coming from[?], you are only 2 hours away from Seattle, you get Seattle TV stations in Vancouver BC [I worked there on several short contracts], you can’t claim ignorance.

  2. S Brennan

    I think the mayor referred to it as the “summer of love” until they showed up at her house and that, as they say, was that.

  3. different clue

    The very first thing someone with the power to do it could do, but won’t, would be to remove all the Capitol Police from the Capitol Region. Fire them all if possible. Re-assign them to counting wildlife in the Aleutian Islands National Wildlife Refuge if they can’t be fired.

    Try to build an even-handed Capital Police with personnel who will be even handed between any and all different mobs.

    The Press could ask Biden about doing this. The Press could ask selected Reps and Sens about doing this. But the Press won’t ask.

    The various States, especially majority Blue ones, should begin vastly increasing the size of their National Guards. Or better yet, build vast State Guards over time so that a Couped FedGov would find invading those States to be very dangerous.

  4. Thomas Golladay

    Well, the truth no longer matters. The US is now ungovernable. Both left wing and right wing groups will begin seizing more areas and ignoring the Federal and State Governments. All because the establishment refused a fair and transparent audit and refused to let people present evidence in court.

    So be it. As a medical professional, I have a skill in high demand. I will be fine. I also have a family of farmers.

  5. different clue

    Here are two comments from a very most recent thread at SST.

    Jersey Jeffersonian,

    The Left went from ACAB to Back the Blue in less than an hour. Ashli Babbit, 14 year AF veteran is the first martyr of America’s third revolution. The left and the cuckconservatives and Fake Americans are already demanding kneeling in submission. Meanwhile, an hour after I posted this, more confirmation that there were multiple Antifa operatives within the crowd and who entered the capital, including the guy with fur and horned hat.

    Senator Coons (?) just labeled the entire crowd of 250,000+ domestic terrorists. Hirono is droning on about “blood was shed” in the capital building, but left out the ‘by the police’.

    Posted by: Fred | 06 January 2021 at 10:52 PM

    jim ticehurst
    The Man with Dark Curley Long Hair and White Beard…using a Plastic Device to Break out the Windows ..Similar to Antifas Tactics with thier Skate Boards…and then Pushing Young Men wearing Cammis and Back Packs into the Capital…and who do NOT look at all like anyone MAGA…Is a Primary Operator and should be Identified and Profiled..

    Posted by: jim ticehurst | 06 January 2021 at 11:42 PM

    Now . . . . if that is true . . . . that there were antifa infiltrators in the Capitol crowd, we should know about that. And decide very carefully what it means and what to think about that.

  6. NR

    All because the establishment refused a fair and transparent audit and refused to let people present evidence in court.

    Thomas, you are a liar. There were THREE audits, and the only fraud found was a Republican pretending to be his dead mother to vote for Trump. And Trump and his cronies had dozens of opportunities to present evidence in court and either chose not to do so or presented evidence that was rejected because it wasn’t credible.

    Once again, you are a liar.

  7. S Brennan

    NR, I have never seen you post anything but neoD talking points, you’re not liar, not because anything you say is true, but because, you’re incapable of independent thought or reason.

  8. Lefty

    Antifa itself is infiltrated. Anyone serious on the left knows this. Seeing “antifa” somewhere says nothing substantive.

    What narrative is this creating? Meanwhile…

  9. Thomas Golladay


    The Audits were not transparent, observers were kicked out for challenging votes and pointing out violations of election laws. We have video evidence of votes being counted without observers. We have forensic experts show live before Senate Committees that Dominion Machines are hackable and hooked up to the internet. We have photos of pristine ballots that were never folded before being counted. Ballots are even being shredded in violation of the law.

    There is no reasoning with you.

  10. S Brennan

    The mayor of Portland went on the media platforms the other day to say, “hey now that Biden’s been elected this shit-show has gotta stop” and he threatened state violence for the first time after what, nine months?

    Which is what I predicted back in May, the violence by the “left” [actually neoD funded groups] using well known 3-letter-agency “regime change” tactics will be stopped violently when the political aims of the neoDs and or Deep-State are met. Those aims have been met, look for a coordinated crack-down similar to what happened under Obama. I add, to the polite applause of so called “liberals”, “progressives” and “lefties”.

    Hell, I remember EZ-Rah Klien’s WaPo article saying how imprisonment of OWS would actually help the cause…in my life I have never seen a person so willing to fellate power in such a supine manner. Any hope for the younger generation faded with that column…and people still take Klein seriously at Vox..sad. I look forward to more of the same in the next few weeks. That’s why “lefties” in America are considered a pathetic joke by those in power, half of them are sheep, the other half are Judas goats, falling all over themselves to be the one to lead the sheep to slaughter…and so it goes.

  11. Astrid

    Once drones come into wide circulation and things get desperate enough, it’ll be pre-WWI Europe all over again. Politicians and billionaires will retreat to their luxurious underground bunkers until those get hacked and become deathtraps…a girl can dream.

  12. different clue


    Interesting point. Do the non-infiltrator antifas themselves know this? Have the intelligent antifas all left antifa in order to dissociate from the profa infiltrators? Are the only genuine antifas left the intellectual dregs and most witless dupes?

    Also, how many of these mobbers were generic MAGAs and how many were specifically Qanons?

  13. NR


    You say there is no reasoning with me, and then you post a bunch of debunked lies as “evidence” of fraud. No, observers were not kicked out from watching vote counts, and Trump’s own lawyers even admitted they had observers in the room at all times:

    Once again, you are a liar.

  14. different clue

    “A few weeks ago Ran Prieur wrote something interesting about Trump and the Trumpies which can help understand how Trump and the Trumpies are handling Trump’s loss. I hope Ian Welsh will forgive my copy-pasting this chunk of Ran Prieur writing on the subject.

    December 2. Far Side: wolf returns to city of strawBack to politics, my latest take on Donald Trump is that he’s a time traveller from the past. In the movie Idiocracy, a completely average guy from our time goes hundreds of years into the future, and humans have become so stupid that he’s a super-genius and the most important man in the world.

    In our world, instead of becoming stupid, we became nice.

    Trump comes from a time where if you meet a weaker man on the road, you take all his stuff and leave him in the ditch to be ignored by passers-by. A lot of ancient history was actually like that. Someone from that world, in ours, would marvel at the charity of his adversaries, and the gullibility of his allies.

    His downfall was that he never understood us. Deep down, he really believed that if he insulted John McCain enough, Arizonans would recognize him as the stronger leader. That’s why he thinks the election was stolen, because he cannot understand how any strategy could win other than absolute ruthlessness.

    I do appreciate Trump for being so transparently who he is, and it’s the strangest thing that his followers don’t see it. People are worried about deep fakes, but one thing I learned in 2020 is that no technology can distort reality better than the human mind.

    I think Trump started out cynically exploiting his followers, and together they fell into madness. That madness is an epistemological practice: building your mental model, of the world beyond your senses, as whatever you want it to be, or whatever makes your life feel meaningful.

    Philosophically, I’m a pan-first-personist. I believe that reality is fully created by experiencing perspectives, because that’s all reality is. But that doesn’t mean you can just do anything. We have to share the universe with other reality-creating perspectives, and one thing you can’t do, is make other people not real.

    When Trumpers say Biden won through voter fraud, what they mean is, they don’t think Biden voters are real. And reality creation goes way deeper than other humans. Somewhere I read that shamanic healers say the one thing they have no power over, is a pandemic. So… South Dakota ER nurse recalls how dying patients spend last minutes insisting virus isn’t real.”

    The question Blue Zonians might ponder is how many millions of Trump supporters are full psychotic-break maniacs at this point? And how much can they be disengaged from? Nothing much will be achieved at the FedGov level. Blue Zonians might focus their efforts on governating and upgrading their own Blue Zone areas and might start thinking about how to make them less economically involved with the Trump Zone areas.

  15. Thomas Golladay


    We have video evidence, shown in public hearings. We have thousands of affidavits signed under the penalty of perjury. We have had a forensic expert Jovan Pulitzer demonstrate on live TV that Dominion Machines are hackable. And the MSM is straight up engaging in propaganda and hid damning evidence of Biden’s corruption.

    You are a tool of the establishment.

    That said:

    Robert Barnes lays out the law and the path forward. Every Republican who stabbed Trump in the back, their career is over, they are all getting primaried. The Federalist Society is persona non grata along with the NeoCons.

    Tim Pool, who represents people like me most closely, recognizes that the country is fractured and there is no coming back from this. I agree. Trump was never the Authoritarian people made him out to be. Democratic Governors on the other hand have all but imposed Martial Law on small businesses and are deliberately destroying them and their states.

    So who is the Authoritarian?

  16. different clue

    It suddenly occurs to me that someone should write a parody of song . . . ” Clowns to the left of me, jokers to the right, here I am – stuck in the middle with you.”

    ” Clintards to the left of me, MAGAs to the right, here I am – stuck in the middle with you.” And so forth and so on.

  17. NR


    Your “video evidence” doesn’t show the things you claim it shows. And I’ve seen some of your “thousands of affidavits SWORN UNDER PENALTY OF PERJURY.” They include things like someone complaining that his ballot was “suspiciously clean” and another person claiming he “infiltrated an antifa meeting in Colorado where Eric Coomer admitted to rigging the election.”

    Here’s a primer on why these “thousands of affidavits SWORN UNDER PENALTY OF PERJURY” don’t mean nearly as much as the Trumpers claim they do:

    As the Trump campaign will remind you, these are sworn statements. But according to legal experts, the jeopardy faced by those behind them is relatively minimal.

    “There is a remote chance that sworn statements (if they are actually sworn statements — most documents that appear to be ‘sworn’ don’t count within the meaning of the statute) could subject the declarant to some exposure under the perjury statutes,” said Lisa Kern Griffin, an expert on evidence at Duke University, in an email. “But perjury prosecutions are rare and almost never arise from statements outside of the context of proceedings in which oaths are formally administered — such as depositions, congressional testimony, grand jury proceedings, or trial testimony.”

    A key issue is whether the affidavit is filed in court, as most filed by the Trump team haven’t been.

    And that right there should tell you how credible these “thousands of affidavits SWORN UNDER PENALTY OF PERJURY” are. They’re so flimsy that Trump and his lawyers never even bothered to bring them to court.

    So once again Thomas, you are a liar.

  18. Willy

    I thought Thomas was a comedy troll? He did refer us to Sidney Powell and Dr. Steve Turley, always wrong but fantastic sources of belly laughs. I rather liked the idea of Chavez, China, the DNC, Bill Gates and Tom Hanks sneaking around pizza parlor basements with fake ballots and bodysnatched voting machines.

    With Dominion bringing a lawsuit and Detroit looking to disbar Powell, I’m hoping that she’ll represent herself in court and bring back our favorite star Kraken witness Melissa Carrone. Plus that secret intelligence guy. Good times ahead.

  19. NR

    And by the way, here’s what happened with the “affidavits SWORN UNDER PENALTY OF PERJURY” that Trump and his lawyers DID bring to court:

    Other witnesses signed affidavits that said, “I believe my vote for Donald J. Trump and Michael Pence was not counted.” But when pressed by judges, they admitted they didn’t have any actual evidence to support that.

    A similar thing happened in Chatham County, Ga., where the GOP called two witnesses as part of its allegation that 53 ballots received after Election Day were predated to make them appear valid. But under questioning, the witnesses acknowledged they didn’t know whether the ballots were actually received after the deadline, while witnesses for the local elections board testified under oath that they were received on time.

    Like everything that comes from Trump and the people around him, it’s all bullshit.

  20. VietnamVet

    There are clear similarities between Boris Yelstin standing on the tank in front of the Russian White House and Donald J Trump speaking to his supporters on the steps of the Capitol. For both the internal contradictions between reality and the propaganda made the continuation of their Empires impossible. Both Congresses are at the mercy of the police and military to do their jobs or not. An extra 2.5-3 million died in middle age between 1991-2001 in Russia. A similar number will die in the USA if the inequality and corruption are not addressed. The 370,000 US deaths in the Pandemic is the first down payment. Joe Biden will fail. At his core he cannot admit that he is a prime example of the professional ten percent who are exploiting the ninety percent to stay in suburbia helping the 0.1% get obscenely rich.

  21. We’re gonna’ run out of rope, might have to hang ’em in shifts.

  22. someofparts

    I wish we could have big nationally televised trials like Watergate was, but put the real criminals on trial. Point public rage at the right targets.

  23. someofparts

    Since there are now going to be comparisons of what happened last night to other protests, one distinction stands out for me – guns. There is no equivalence between large crowds that are heavily, ostentatiously armed and large crowds that are not. And yes, any fool with eyes can see what unarmed crowds have done, but that does not excuse lawless armed groups. If anything it shows why they are a bad idea.

  24. Ché Pasa

    A narrative consensus seems to be forming that ‘something’ should be done about yesterday’s mayhem at the Capitol — but nothing will be.

    Calls for Trump’s impeachment, removal, or resignation are apparently going to go nowhere. His social media time outs will end, and he will resume inciting his fans and followers who will do what they do. As I said a while ago, we’re liable to see more violence, at least one state capitol torched, maybe more, possible street fighting here and there, police standing back and standing by — except to arrest alleged “antifa” — and there will be more paralysis in Washington.

    ‘Something’ should be done, but nothing will be. Our rulers appear to be enjoying the spectacle of the rabble on a rampage — and of course fighting one another — and doing anything about it would interfere with their entertainment and pleasure.

    Soon enough, the ransacking of the Capitol in DC will be forgotten as more dramatic crises will not-spontaneously arise, and nothing substantive will be done about them, either.

    Talk about a Reality Show climax…

  25. Chicago Clubs

    Once again Ian demonstrates he has one of the smartest blogs infested with the dumbest commenters.

  26. It appears the color revolution against the US has succeeded. A few hours of Antifa like rioting by a relatively few participants of the protestors was all it took to curtail debate on the swing state electors to get knocked out of prime time, and Trump to be blamed for, well, everything, including the killing of the Air Force vet.

    That the actual rioters behaved like Antifa people is apparently no coincidence. See, e.g., the horn wearing dude that @SidneyPowell1 retweeted.

    For those who aren’t 100% delusional, or invested in their ideological identity, or other forms of irrationality, they can reason by analogy by studying how law enforcement and the court system handled the treatment of evidence with respect to the JFK assassination and 911. Also, a useful factoid/analogy for ‘appreciating’ the media’s fidelity with respect to exposing Deep State crimes can read or listen to Dr. Pepper’s account of the civil trial, by the family of MLK, against the government, that the MLK family WON. Pepper was their lawyer.

    Specifically, Pepper has also described the behavior of the media during the trial. I could spell it out further, but don’t have the stomach for it. I could see having a rational discussion with Thomas Golladay, e.g., but, as always, the only value to ‘arguing’ with the “nothing to see here” people is to show how shabby their arguments are, for the benefit of other people. We’ve seen how the hydroxychloroquine deniers are not amenable to rational arguments based on science, on this blog, and there we’re talking about what is arguably much higher quality evidence.

    I have recently started to pull my ugly “voter’s revenge” project out of mothballs, and have posted the screenshots of a re-imagined, less ugly version at While the tool was originally motivated by, and focused on, the transpartisan issue of sinking the TPP, I think a more useful approach nowadays is to start out with 2 main posse issues, one for left leaning populists, and one for right leaning populists.

    The Election Steal 2020 cause will still be useful, for right leaning populists, for another year, I would guess. Certainly in a place like Georgia, and certainly if leaders and influentials (like firebrand John Fredericks, who is often interviewed on War Room Pandemic) push it. (Ideally, this would include Trump, but that is not necessary.)

    For left leaning populists, the hard coded posse issue that I would favor is “Medicare for All”. If you haven’t heard Jimmy Dore youtubes on this, I suggest you give a listen.

    I’m sorry that I didn’t make some effort on this starting a couple months earlier. However, now that the color revolution is all but complete, I don’t have much stomach for it, either. If anybody is interested, they can DM me on reddit (where I’m metamars_ ), and I can instruct them on how they can get a working, simplified but (hopefully) very useful tool coded overseas relatively cheaply. (I’ll guess less than $2,500. Will hopefully have an estimate in a day or two.) I don’t seek or accept money, but I’m sure I could spec things out and act as business user, for somebody who is not as $$ challenged as I am.

    I have heard Steve Bannon use the terms “posse” and “wrangler” in recent days, so maybe I have gotten through to the “war room pandemic” crowd.

  27. GlassHammer

    I don’t know,

    If 5-10% of the Republican elecorate decide to abstain from voting because they feel betrayed or if 5-10% of the Republican electorate defects because of yesterday’s events then the conservative movement would be weakened for quite awhile.

    We could also see a nasty backlash from the state as they massively increase domestic security.

    Too many potential outcomes at this point to say one particular negative outcome is inevitable.

  28. Ten Bears

    We could also see a nasty backlash from the state as they massively increase domestic security … one would think that would have been foreseen. No?

    Poor planning does not constitute a crisis, until it does.

    Took a selfie vandalizing government property ~ lol

  29. GlassHammer

    “one would think that would have been foreseen. No?” – Ten Bears

    Well the post 911 security increase never went away but many people have forgotten about it.

    “Poor planning does not constitute a crisis, until it does.” – Ten Bears

    And it always does.

    “Took a selfie vandalizing government property ~ lol” – Ten Bears

    Living online does weird things to you.

  30. someofparts

    One interesting sideline might be that Hawley has over-played his hand. It will be interesting to see if he can re-calibrate his brand to cover himself after being such a visible player in this debacle.

    Also, I thought the crowd that crashed through the barricades were armed, or that some in the crowd were. Now I’m starting to learn that they were not. If that is true, then no matter how outlandish or distasteful their behavior was, calling it a coup attempt should earn a person lifetime status as an Honorary Karen.

  31. Ché Pasa

    And just for the record, there was a right wing coup on December 12, 2000, and nothing has happened to reverse it since.

    We are still living out the consequences of that right wing coup more than 20 years later.

  32. Z

    – We got a lot more in common with those protestors than our rulers. I respect what they did. Our greedy, global killing machine government that’s overlooking a “controlled” kill of the people it purports to represent, dropping bombs on innocent people and overthrowing democratically elected governments overseas, and lighting this planet on fire deserves to be shut down.

    – It’s not unreasonable for them to suspect that the democrats stole the election. It wouldn’t be out of character and for all we know it could even be 100% correct. It’s not a question in my mind if they cheated, the question is did they cheat enough to outcheat the republicans and overturn the actual voters’ will.

    – Creepy Joe and Kamalala, her of zero delegates during the democratic party presidential primaries and slated to be sixth place in her own home state, have the backing of nobody but our rulers, our rulers’ propaganda apparatus we call the U.S. news, and people who are not desperate enough to get out on the streets and fight. Let’s see how that goes for them …

    – Unhinged Giuliani had an understated role in this episode. He held a rally in DC yesterday calling for “trial by combat.” Trump had probably ordered the Capitol cops not to shoot and once Giuliani lit that patriotic fire and people started pushing it with those cops some of the protestors probably thought they’d be brave and die a hero and when the cops wouldn’t shoot them eventually the numbers won out in a low grade battle and the cops had to retreat and then give up and just hope to control the crowd as best they could. Once they got breached they did one hell of a job IMO, or got incredibly lucky, keeping the damage as low as it was on both sides. Again, I doubt the Capitol cops invited them in but they were surrounded and had to give ground and managed the situation very well considering the circumstances.

    – I think it’s notable that Unhinged Giuliani, like many of the over the hill gang who govern us, is abnormally energetic for a man of his age and shape. One of the problems with the lack of accountability of our ruling class is once they get in it’s almost impossible to root them out and they can hang on way past their due date running on the fumes of amphetamines, chasing dopamine pings, and making short-sighted, selfish, stupid decisions that we, their subjects, are forced to live with the consequences of.

    – There are no political solutions available for the subjects in this country and that was made clear by the fact that even though damn near 80% of the people agree with a $2K payout that 100% of “Let Them Eat Shit” Mitch can dictate to us that we don’t get it. Of course we know that is an oversimplification of the situation and he was not actually alone, he had plenty of propagandic support from the liberal econogandists and media pundits such as Friedman, Krugman, Summers, the WaPo editorial board overseen by Fred Hiatt, and the Bloomberg editorial board not to mention that damn near all the beat reporters from Bloomberg, the NY Times, and the WaPo reported on the issue in the most unfavorable terms possible to the $2K payout playing up the overall cost of the program, the ones who didn’t “deserve” it, the percentage increase in the checks that Trump proposed (over 200% increase!), and giving an unrepresentative large amount of ink to the “everyday folks” who said they didn’t need the checks, etc. and including only passing consideration of the desperation of our most needy in their “reporting”. It’s no damn surprise that people charged Capitol Hill after the operation our rulers pulled denying them an extra $1400 so many so desperately needed. And do you think it’s lost on them that the stock market is making record highs while they have to sacrifice and scramble to survive, some in tents for the first time, seeing no future for themselves with the current arrangement, and waiting in long lines for food handouts?

    – Since our rulers offer no political solutions to their subjects existential concerns this is what happens. It’s not going to be sorted out by a communal dance party. Life is not a Coca-Cola commercial. It’s going to be messy and ugly and that’s the way it goes since our rulers made it this way and I just wish it was bloodier for them yesterday. They got plenty of our blood on their hands and I wouldn’t have minded seeing a bunch of them who worked to deny us $1400 die over the all blessed deficit to see how important it would be to the rest of them in the future. I’d imagine that the people won a few more votes in the Senate and the House for the $2K checks yesterday.


  33. kråke

    Can Bezos, Thiel and Musk thrive in a post-Trumpian christo-fascist hellscape?

    Yes. Quite nicely.

    Can they and their ilk stay atop the death-heap in a Justice Democrat stop-gap New Deal republic? Sure, though it will cost a bit more to capture all the new budget lines, agencies and narratives.

    So where do you think this is heading?

  34. Lefty


    It would be quite a project trying to figure out who’s who. It would never end, it would consume all one’s time and would induce psychic stress and all its accompanying psychological issues. Not to mention basic issues of human trust.

    And that’s exactly the point.

  35. zot23

    I just have to say (slightly off topic) thank you to Ian for allowing open and unmoderated comments on your threads. Sure, everyone has to deal with some commenters that they vehemently disagree with, but even arguing has an “airing of grievances” quality that (potentially) helps foster a better communication structure in the future.

    Boy, oh boy do I disagree with some of what is being said here. But that’s a good thing 😉

  36. Eric Anderson

    Chicago Clubs:
    Apparently you’ve never perused Atrios’s comment threads. Not that Duncan’s little wads compare even remotely to Ian’s posts.

  37. Ten Bears

    I haven’t forgotten the post 911 security manufactured hysteria. LOL

    Which to one who was ‘against government’ when ‘against government’ wasn’t cool the post 911 security didn’t look all that different than the pre 911 security. Seriously? Cavemen? Armed only with razors? Hijacking four airplanes at the same time over the most heavily guarded airspace in the recorded history of the known universe? LOL

    But let’s not get (too far) off-topic. Re. these Pretty Bois, these Half-Wits and Oath-Breakers, it’s almost as if they were completely unware there’s a transition is process, a change however nominal in priorities and, well … uhhh, if you’re gonna’ break the law it’s probably not a good idea to advertise. They say ladies love outlaws (like babies like stray dogs), but don’t have much use for mere criminals. Number One Rule of being an Outlaw: don’t attract attention. LOL

    There is a solution ~ ~ round them up, at gunpoint if need be, stuff them into cattle-cars and “escort” them, for their own “protection”, to a reservation somewhere out in the hinterlands. Mars will do, or the Moons of Uranus.

  38. Jason

    @ zot23

    I came over when Naked Capitalism’s comments were closed and I’m still getting a feel for things. So far I really like this simpler, more open format.

  39. Hugh

    Why can’t Trumpers “man” up? Yesterday Trump set up a big gathering of his true believing kooks and then egged them on to riot. It did nut go over well. So the Trumpers response is “Must have been antifa.” They can’t own their own actions. They are cowards.

    And if that isn’t enough and more distraction is needed, they recycle for the millionth time all the nutcase Trumpist election fraud lies.

    What the Josh Hawleys, Ted Cruzs, and Trump rioters have in common is that they don’t need or want elections. An election is an election only if they win. So why bother having them?

    Yesterday they failed. So today we see their “blame anyone else” “look anywhere else” fallback strategies kick in.

  40. Eric Anderson

    Ian’s threads are what happens when mods don’t quash dissent and let the commentariat do it instead. Ego’s abound, but we generally keep it reasoned and civil. But, get in a habit of ad hom’ing or flagrant trolling and Ian will show you the direction to the door.

  41. John Emerson

    What Chicago Clubs said. I came here very hopefully based on my respect for Ian, and I have been sorely disappointed.

    Freedom of speech is about not having government suppression of speech. It does not mean that everyone has to listen to everyone else, no matter how stupid and obnoxious they are. Completely open forums decline into incoherence and worse. You can only have an intelligent conversation with people who are, minimally,willing to stay on topic rather than beat their own drum, who shut up and listen when they have nothing to say, who are not too crazy and obnoxious and who have some interesting ideas. That necessarily involves excluding some “points of view”. No one has to listen to off topic BS.

    My way of dealing with this question will be th exclude myself from the “discussion” here.

    Yves at Naked Capitalism just closed comments for these reasons. I was in the middle of an interesting discussion on one thread when she closed comments on the basis of the inanity on a different thread. I was disappointed, but when I looked at the other thread I understood why she did it.

  42. GlassHammer

    So the Trumpers response is “Must have been antifa.” – Hugh


    Antifa is a demon that possesses good Americans.

    Makes perfect sense.

  43. do you see what i see

    Yves at Naked Capitalism just closed comments for these reasons. I was in the middle of an interesting discussion on one thread when she closed comments on the basis of the inanity on a different thread. I was disappointed, but when I looked at the other thread I understood why she did it.

    The people engaged in that other thread were having a lively discussion, a bit heated at times, but nothing egregious. They viewed your “interesting discussion” as bland, not nearly as intelligent as those involved thought it was, and ultimately not worthy of their own time.

  44. Bob Smith

    So, I guess the question going forward will be whether or not the Cletus Coup will be seen as a one off or a precursor a la the Beer Hall Putsch

  45. Anon

    I will never understand why so many Neo-Nazis, Dark Enlightment fans, 21st Century Confederates, and Nick Land / Mendicus Moldbug epigones read this site and then feel the need to comment. I don’t go to Parler, etc. and shit my opinions all over the wall. What’s up with you people? Don’t you have somewhere else you’d rather be? Or do you just like hanging out with the people you hate? That’s kind of strange, no? Why are you so weird? Your mind is broken.

  46. Enlightened

    I was able to partake in the various comment threads over at Naked Capitalism and I took something away from all of them.

  47. Watt4Bob

    This whole episode is starting to remind me of the Reichstag fire, as in providing cover for all sorts of maneuvers on the part of power;

    Mitch and GOP are allowed a 180 degree change in manner with no explanation. (revolving villains game)

    ‘Moderate’ Dems now have an excuse to join hands with the newly reformed GOP to return to peaceful looting of what’s left of the main street economy. (the Grand Bargain back on the table)

    Security State gets license for ever more stringent censorship of online content. (to prevent online organization/resistance)

    Police get a new excuse for ever more violence when facing protestor/terrorists, and relief from ‘Defund the Police’ movement. (remember what happened last time)

    Trump gets to keep his Storm Troops, and they think they’ve achieved a victory, complete with a bonafide martyr, a female vet no less. (The Bloody Shirt)

    Didn’t cast much, and look at all the great stuff they got!

  48. BlizzardOfOzzz

    No, Hugh, an election is only an election if established laws are followed, which are in place to ensure a level playing field and prevent fraud.

    It is always interesting to see self-proclaimed radicals locking arms with the regime, speaking with the same words and phrases, and the same forked tongue. Antifa and the FBI: two peas in a pod.

  49. Hugh

    Why does the head of the Capitol police still have a job? Hoocoodanode doesn’t even rise to the laughable level.

    The rat are leaving the Trump ship. Says something that they waited practically until the Biden movers arrived before taking a “principled” stand. LOL

    With the rift between Trump and Pence, it looks like Trump will have to pardon himself.

  50. Ten Bears

    One would reasonably expect the FBI to be Anti-Fascist, to be anti-NAZI; afterall we fought at least one war, A Great War, arguably two wars, The War of Treason in the Name of Owning Humans, to put an end to it. Sadly, like the poor, the NAZIs, the trash, will always be with us.

    Tell us, Lizard of Booze, do you still maintain as you have in the past the dead children and teachers and the grieving community of parents, educators and first responders at Sandy Hook School are all ‘crisis actors’, and those dead children and teachers are in fact not dead?

  51. Hugh

    BOO, I have never understood the attraction of being totally divorced from reality like you. Your side can only win. Therefore if your guys lose, the “playing field” needs to be made “fairer” (suppress votes of brown people, make votes up) until your side wins. You should consider right wing stand up.

  52. Mark Pontin

    [1] Mike Davis at NLR with some intelligent analysis —

    ‘Yesterday’s ‘sacrileges’ in our temple of democracy – oh, poor defiled city on the hill, etc. – constituted an ‘insurrection’ only in the sense of dark comedy. What was essentially a big biker gang dressed as circus performers and war-surplus barbarians – including the guy with a painted face posing as horned bison in a fur coat – stormed the ultimate country club, squatted on Pence’s throne, chased Senators into the sewers, casually picked their noses and rifled files and, above all, shot endless selfies to send to the dudes back home. Otherwise they didn’t have a clue….

    ‘But something unexpectedly profound happened: a deus ex machina that lifted the curse of Trump from the careers of conservative war hawks and right-wing young lions …’

    ‘the True Trumpists have become a de facto third party, bunkered down heavily in the House of Representatives … reconciliation between the two camps will probably become impossible … Mar-a-Lago will become base camp for the Trump death cult which will continue to mobilize his hardcore followers to terrorize Republican primaries and ensure the preservation of a large die-hard contingent in the House …(and) red-state legislatures ….

    ‘Freed from Trump’s electronic fatwas … some of the younger Republican senators may prove to be much more formidable competitors for the white college-educated suburban vote than centrist Democrats realize. ‘

  53. Mark Pontin

    [2] Also, what Krake said. The big tech companies are the last bulwark of American global power in a way. (Yes, there’s the global reserve currency; but ultimately, while immensely troublesome for other countries to move away from, that’s a global consensual hallucination.)

    For that reason, I’ve been sceptical about the real-world chances for antitrust regulation, such as Matt Stoller expects, which would break up in some substantial way the operations of Google (already joined at the waist wit the US intel agencies), Amazon, and Apple.

    [3] Facebook will likely get spanked, however.

    Because there _will_be (at least) attempts at a clampdown by TPTB, imposing censorship on Facebook and social media and to a lesser extent the rest of the internet. ‘Fake news’ — dissenting opinions pointing out, forex, that in the real-world nobody voted for Kamela Harris, the likely president-to-be, who was installed against the almost-universal will of American voters in both Dem primaries and general election — will be targeted.

    In this light, it struck me yesterday that Yves Smith’s shutdown of NC comment mightn’t be her usual hissy fit, but good sense. NC has been targeted as a promoter of ‘fake news’ in the past.

    Ian, with his smaller following and up there in Canada, is less in jeopardy. (But I hope he’s put this site’s servers somewhere safe.)

  54. Mark Level

    I strongly agree with “anon” that it’s interesting how these NeoConfederate, Mencius Moldbug MAGAtt types are commenting at a website like this. Why? I support Ian’s work and apart from SB’s endless fellating of the Strong Man he worships, I’d wonder why these people are here.

    As to Ian’s main point, I think the far right is obviously very dangerous at this point, and though I am over 60 years old there has been no serious “Left” in this country except for early in my lifetime, and there is next to none now. There are a few voices in the wilderness like Ian (Canadian, though, right?), the Chapo Trap House Gang, Naked Capitalism (yeah, it sucks that their comments had been shut down), CounterPunch and Jimmy Dore.

    The elected “left” like AOC et al rapidly get controlled, neutered and then shut down. There will not be economic justice in the US EVER, based on the 2 right-wing Duopoly parties, the crypto-fascist Jesus Nut R’s and the smug, TINA, PMC, bomb-the-brown-people and rule-the-world Dims. The 45 year redistribution of resources from 90% of the population (including the former Middle Class, RIP) to the top 0.1% . . . . Trump killed ’em off openly with his indifference (& I’m glad yesterday’s event was surely a Super-Spreader event, Darwin awards for all including hopefully the complicit Capitol Cops), the Harris Executive (Joe’s an empty suit) will kill them off with a few soothing idpol words in hopes of keeping everyone quiet and doing the 2 things that will never change anything– 1. Believing the MSM lies; 2. Voting for what we are offered.

    U.S. is a failed state and the only question is how fast or slow the collapse is. I hope the Blue Areas can let the empire die and keep some facade of a livable society, the (R) areas will be something like the Taliban would enjoy– controlling women, killing queers, etc. As Schiller said, “Against stupidity, the Gods contend in vain.” The Ruling Class and its voters are deeply stupid, and there are not enough sentient consumers in “USA” to save it.

  55. Ian Welsh

    I let people comment who I disagree with, even quite right wing people, because I think it’s useful for me and others on the left to know what they are thinking and saying. This is a minority view in the current, curated internet, but it was common in the early 2000s.

    Heck, Mandos is a contributor and while we agree on end policy goals we often disagree on tactics and strategy, but I think it’s important this site have a leavening of material I don’t agree with, both because I’m not always right and because it is useful to be exposed to views one doesn’t agree with. Mandos has gotten some stuff right I got wrong.

    I also personally read people whose views I loathe, because I believe in keeping up with the “other” side.

    Also, sometimes the other side and yours find places of agreement. Hawley’s scum, but I’d take his help getting a $2,000 check every month out the door. I just wouldn’t ever forget we’re on different sides about far more and not actual allies.

    But then I’m not actual allies with 90% of Democratic Congress members.

    Finally, note that most reader will never read comments. I assume those who do are savvy enough to “protect” themselves.

  56. John Emerson

    Do you see what I see: the interesting discussion to which referred was on NC, not here. I also thought my discussion here was a waste of time, since I spent all of my time quibbling about my introductory statement, which was meant to lead to something interesting. but couldn’t,

  57. Ian Welsh

    I also have people tell me how much they learn from some of the commenters. #shrug

    Maybe I’ll change my mind at some point. But some of the people I consider the best commenters here are people NC banned.

    Also, in mechanical terms, NC has comment moderators. If I went to moderation, you’d often wait 12 hours or more to have your comments approved. Retroactive moderation, in my judgment, would not work.

    I was the managing editor at FDL and the Agonist. I know how comment moderation works, and it is a PITA. You either hand it to volunteers; hire people; or you do it yourself and then there are huge delays and vast drama. Every person who gets consistently blocked will write comments whining and screaming and insulting and begging (this is not theoretical, I’ve dealt with it.)

    Still, I’ve done it in the past, and if convinced it’s worth it both for me and my readers, I may do it again.

    I will say that if I ever start a clearly non-political blog, it will be 100% moderated.

  58. Mark Level

    Ian, thank you for the response just after my comment, whether it was triggered by my comment or others. I have no objection to open commenting (though I suppose there are limits, like actual threats.) As Nietzsche observed long ago, ideology implies blinders (“Convictions make convicts” in one translation) and I like hearing for diverse views. Sometimes people I strongly disagree with most of the time make points that I respect and value.

    Oh, & I could’ve added MoonOfAlabama to the list of valuable websites that are among the few worth pursuing (Caitlin Johnson I think is outstanding as well.) Whomever runs MoA, “b” has an incoherent and idiotic main take on yesterday’s failed insurrection today, implying that Trump actually “won” the election despite the complete lack of evidence supporting that. However, most of the time their anti-imperialism is refreshing and smart relative to the Empire supporting stenography of the MSM. And their commentariat is all over the map . . . from anti-Zionists (who I respect) to crazed anti-Semites or Conspiracists.

    Still, like your website, a more interesting read than most of the stuff you see on MSM websites, or even on Eschaton, which got taken over by Rabid Clintonites. Anyway, we live in “interesting times”, and as it all falls apart this is one of my top half-dozen go-to sources for intelligent comment. Otherwise, it’s mostly a desert out in the http://www., as we all know.

  59. Thomas Golladay

    Media is wasting no time pouring gasoline on the fire. Cori Bush as well. They are practically making people’s choices for them. The lockdowns that destroyed small businesses, and killed more seniors from stress of not seeing their families than Covid did, is devastating usually non-political people into taking to the streets and defying the lockdowns.

    America is becoming ungovernable, people with normalcy bias like Tim Pool (who admits it openly in all his pod casts and at least recognizes his bias) are recognizing it.

    As Jimmy Dore has pointed out along with Tim Pool, Antifa only backed Joe/Kamala because they feel they will be easier to overthrow and now at local level, Antifa and Trump supporters are actually working together in specific circumstances.

    Once Joe makes it clear he won’t give money out and will increase lockdowns, etc, its on. America will fracture beyond anyone’s control. So be it, the world will be safer in the long run. A nation that passes a nearly 1 trillion dollar defense spending bill and gives trillions to big corporations to stuff their balance sheets and a pittance to actual people and hospitals, deserves to fall apart.

    I will watch it fall apart and laugh. I can ride it out. Ian can ride it out, he has a somewhat functional government behind him. For a given value of functional.

    The rest of you without a support group, wish you the best, make sure you have a life straw on you to drink filtered clean water, and a book on edible plants, and a basic first aid kit at a minimum.

  60. Ten Bears

    Pu-leaze ~ circus performers and war-surplus barbarians dressed as what they think a big biker should look like (seriously? a guy with a painted face posing as horned bison in a fur coat?). It is … embarrassing.

    She. SB is a she. ‘Bout daylight in Hawaii, she should be showing up here soon.

  61. Hugh

    BTW Schumer and Pelosi have called for the 25th Amendment to be invoked. Pelosi has said that if it isn’t, impeachment proceeding should be started. An impeachment would have to be fast, or maybe not. I have heard it argued that someone can be impeached even after their term of office. You know to deprive them of any privileges and rights appertaining to their time in office. Another question is would any pardons Trump issued in his final days be valid if he was found to be acting criminally or with gross incompetence. This is uncharted territory as far as I know.

  62. S Brennan

    Let me correct Ché’s remark:

    “for the record, there was a right wing coup on 22 Nov 1963…We are still living out the consequences of that right wing coup more than 57 years later.”


    The first D elected after LBJ’s catastrophic choice to escalate VietNam and just after Ford [last of the new deal R’s] took the stage as a neoD, albeit not one of Al From’s infamous gang, nope, Carter had been convinced by none other that Milton Friedman that returning to the Gilded-Age economics [sans mercantilism] was the way to go.

    And while Carter went down in flames, he did fitfully start the D’s return to wilsonian policies…which led to his being utterly defeated by Reagan. After Carter, the the party of FDR was seized by Al From’s DLC in the early 80’s, that cabal ruthlessly purged the party apparatus of any FDRist holdovers, then they put some of their whores in the front window and turned the red light on. At first it was a trickle, but eventually a flood of money from the financial/insurance/de-industrialization sector started to flood the DNC coffers. That’s when the party of FDR ended and became what I now refer to as neoDs…yeah, they still talk left, but they govern hard right.

    Wittness Biden today, talking about extending SSI benefits to government workers who already have generous, rock-solid pensions that pay two to three times the average SSI claimants benefits. Example; the teacher on the cul de sac above me retired at age 50 and collects northward of $3,500/mo. Not a fortune to be sure but, the average SSI claimant is around $1500.00 at 65.

    Why would Biden give such a benifet right before the last of the late boomers hit the system in two years? To create a crisis? To lay the groundwork for the destruction of the two pillars of FDRism?

    Biden has little time to be in office, he will suffer no repercussions in his lifetime, he will help finish the job started in November 1963.

  63. different clue

    @ Chicago Clubs,

    Thank you for your interest in our comments. We are always happy to hear from you. Please let us know if you have any other concerns.

  64. different clue

    @John Emerson,

    Thank you for your interest in our comments. We are always happy to hear from you. Please let us know if you have any other concerns.

  65. Hugh

    Thomas Golladay, I salute your work to make the country safe for covid. Viruses are deeply misunderstood.

    Everyone knows antifa are space aliens. Any info on what star they’re from or win the invasion begins. Inquiring minds would like to know.

  66. Jack

    Finally, note that most reader will never read comments.

    I wasn’t aware of this. Preconceived notions are adjusting to new information.

  67. different clue

    As to Susan Webber closing comments at her blog, and assuming she still has them closed by next fundraising time, we will see how well fundraising goes in the teeth of that high-handed nastiness. Will people donate where they can’t comment? We will see.

    Someone speculated that she really did it under secret pressure from the Class Enemy Enforcement Community to prevent unapproved information and views from reaching readers and that could be true. In which case her Making Stuff Up about the commentariat would be disingenous in the extreme and a Noble Lie at best, and a wild departure from her carefully cultivated image as a fearless teller of truth, including to individual selected commenters.

  68. GlassHammer

    “seized by Al From’s DLC” – S Brennan

    Al From, now there is a name that doesn’t make it into political discussions nearly enough.

    Really jogged my memory just reading the name again.

  69. Jack

    “And while Carter went down in flames, he did fitfully start the D’s return to wilsonian policies…which led to his being utterly defeated by Reagan. After Carter, the the party of FDR was seized by Al From’s DLC in the early 80’s, that cabal ruthlessly purged the party apparatus of any FDRist holdovers, then they put some of their whores in the front window and turned the red light on. At first it was a trickle, but eventually a flood of money from the financial/insurance/de-industrialization sector started to flood the DNC coffers. That’s when the party of FDR ended and became what I now refer to as neoDs…yeah, they still talk left, but they govern hard right.”

    This is accurate.

  70. Z

    I got kicked off of NakedCapitalism and I still donate to it.

    I’ve had my skirmishes with her, but I reckon Susan does a lot more good than bad though I agree with plenty of the criticisms that I’ve read here of her.

    I’ve also learned a lot from her site and she is worth supporting IMO.


  71. metro

    In which case her Making Stuff Up about the commentariat would be disingenous in the extreme and a Noble Lie at best, and a wild departure from her carefully cultivated image as a fearless teller of truth, including to individual selected commenters.

    Nothing new here. This has always been the case, and it’s not unique to Susan Webber.

  72. Willy

    Speaking of right wingers who comment here, honestly or like some cult zombie….

    I’ve been observing a post-capitol riot discussion on an evangelical blog. They talk of “cuckservatives”, RINOs, devious antifa operatives, those always-evil leftists, and the biblical righteousness of Trump. It’s as if any reality outside of their own has no place with these people. Reality cannot penetrate because they’ve tied their religious faith to it.
    Trump obviously noticed and took full advantage.

    I may go ahead and declare that the currently ongoing conservative divide is happening between the philosophically secular small government types, and the far more tribal religious nutjob/monster which the former captured/created for votes way back in decades past.

    What to do with the monster Frankenstein created? The monster doesn’t care that Frankenstein used science to create him. It now only wants to eat the poor doctor, rationalizing away every other consideration.

    Disclaimer: IMO, any religion which doesn’t harm outsiders or fight directly against all of the American founders visions (the better visions that is), is fine by me. Don’t start nothing wont be nothing.

    The US will be ripe for a right wing coup only if the evangelical mob is up for it. The ones I know claim they don’t believe in a theocracy, yet if God wills a theocracy then they’re fully up for it. If Barr, Bolton, McConnell and Romney are any examples, there are more honest right wing thinkers out there willing to try and stop their monster.

  73. Thomas Golladay

    There is no coming back. Pick a side or retrench in a safe place. My oath as a medical professional obligates me to help those I can and protect those in my care till properly transferred to higher level of caregivers. I don’t fear being hurt as in general people know not to shoot medical personnel.

    Civil War has come. We deserve it, the world will be safer for it, and the Establishment can no longer control the people.

  74. Donald Trump

    Listen, don’t shoot those medical guys. These doctors are doing a great job, a great job.

  75. Astrid

    Hey, Antifa as secret space aliens makes more sense than expecting Joemala to govern as progressives, given known facts.

  76. Willy

    Space aliens are a myth, since everybody knows that the earth is flat.

    I know Iranians who back in 1970s Iran, were on the anti-establishment side (anti Shah). Yet after their Khomeini-worshipping allies took power, they had to get the hell out of their country lest they get persecuted, likely worse than they ever had under the Shah.

    So Thomas, whose side are you on?

  77. Yves Webber

    I also have people tell me how much they learn from some of the commenters. #shrug

    Haha, I know what you mean Ian. Look, we’ve had our differences, but we both know we’re smarter than most. Yet we also fancy ourselves more understanding than most, so we have to put up with the riffraff. It’s the cost of being us and it’s worth it, both for us and for them.

    If some of these idiots get something out of what some of these other idiots say, what else can we do but shrug?

    Best wishes with the blog!

  78. @ Golladay

    The youtube of Robert Barnes that you posted was one of the most interesting things I’ve heard in a long, long while.

    The most interesting bit of inside baseball is that Trump found out about Barr finding out about a ballot stuffing cheat in Michigan, but did nothing. Trump apparently got angry enough at Barr to fire him, but his comment about him previously “liking” Barr fits only too well with Trump’s gracious public comment about Barr’s ‘departure’.

    Both of these are bizarre. Barr and some others in the DOJ effectively spat on the constitution and electoral process. While a few thousand votes in MI aren’t a national tragedy, the collective vote steal is. Trump, though, despite spouting endless MAGA rhetoric, doesn’t care about long term damage from Barr’s treason TO AMERICA. Hell, he didn’t even care that much about Barr’s role making his Presidency a one term affair, and him a loser to the likes of abusing father of auto-pornographer Hunter, Basement Joe Biden!

    No, what he cares about is that he liked Barr, and thought Barr liked him! I guess he still wants Barr to like him, because of course what he should have done is expose Barr for the execrable traitor he is.

    The cause of national populism might well be better off without bizarro Trump as anything more consequential than cheerleader. Trump had powers that he refused to use, and even at this late date, he continues to underwhelm with his total lack of judgement. What confidence can any sane person have that he would be any more competent during a 2nd term? He seems to be a better speaker now, than he was 4 years ago, but aside from that, I’m not see any development into competent leadership.

    Trump may have made the smallest of dents in “the swamp”, which Biden will quickly restore, anyway, within 6 months. (I’m ignoring conservative judge appointees, of which I know no details. My assumption is that they are significantly less toxic than liberal judges, but they as a class seem just as corrupt as US Senators, the Deep State creeps, and the unelected bureaucrats who supposedly regulate business in the public interest, etc.)

    Not much of a legacy, which is appropriate for somebody so incompetent.

  79. Jack

    The cause of national populism might well be better off without bizarro Trump as anything more consequential than cheerleader. Trump had powers that he refused to use, and even at this late date, he continues to underwhelm with his total lack of judgement.

    This is a quite rational assessment. That you are only now beginning to contemplate this would perhaps indicate a vastly underdeveloped intuitive sense? Just trying to understand.

  80. NR

    Metamars and other right-wingers here have been talking about things that simply did not happen as though they did for months now. There can be no rational engagement with them when they reject reality in favor of their preferred narratives. It’s like trying to debate science with someone who insists that the sky is made of cheese.

  81. Mark Pontin

    Yves Webber: “Doesn’t she know I’m taking care of my mother and collating Michael Hudson’s most recent ramblings…?”

    Hey! Watch it! This is actually a valuable service. I appreciate someone typing up Michael Hudson — who’s generally on point and correct — and I hate having to listen through a whole interview in real-time.

  82. angryiraqi

    Good. You Americans deserve to be run by right wing dictators. You’re a bunch of craven cowards. Enjoy the spoils of your cravenness.

  83. angryiraqi

    If you got banned from Nakedcapitalism, you probably deserved it, you salty losers. You’re also probably not as intelligent as you think you are, as is the case with most Ian Welsh commenters.

  84. Stirling S Newberry

    “Anyway, America is now a pre-coup nation. the”


    We do have a left-wing party, instead, we have UKIP and a Conservative Party. The Conservatives suddenly realize that the police are a right-wing institution – which is slightly obvious.

  85. Stirling S Newberry

    do not, my apologies.

  86. kj1313

    I can’t take anyone seriously if they listen to Pim Tool period. Pim Tool who kept braying there was a second civil war coming, he had as many videos saying that he thought AOC would lose. Really not the sharpest tool in the shed.

    Secondly all of this was fomented by a sore loser who knew that most votes were going to coming in as absentee ballots since we are *still* currently in a pandemic and the vote totals would show up at the end of the day. Why did the votes show up at the end of election day and not counted before? Because State Republicans in swing states (know Penns for sure) explicitly mandated the election board that they wanted them to count it only after the election days ballots were counted. This is part in partial of enablers everywhere trying to fudge up the process (which is already abysmal by peer nation standards).

  87. Thomas Golladay


    I voted Green Party. The days of voting lesser evil are over for me. I will live on, I have essential skills that crosses peoples political filters.

    As NR shows, he lives in an alternate reality and is not reconcilable. I wish him well. NR likely has zero survival skills, but hopefully learns them in the inevitable collapse. If the Election was clean we would have clear and transparent audits.

    But enough with NR:

    If you have an essential skill, your security and value has gone up. If you don’t, get water filters and purification tablets. Don’t horde gold, horde copper if you want a metal stockpile as you can work copper in a bread oven to shape it to your needs. You only need to melt it if you are casting it for artistic designs or adding tin/arsenic to make bronze, zinc to make brass. Now I am not a metal smith, but my neighbor is and she does excellent copper alloy and iron alloy work and is a skilled person in high demand when the civil war erupts.

    Let the assholes beat each other to death for power, and render them irrelevant via a networked society of independent regions made up of skilled workers who live on their own terms and keep the assholes out to fight over dying cities and worthless money.

    Also have children and invest in them your time and knowledge so they can develop the life skills they need to live off-grid and never depend on dysfunctional state institutions that show no hope of reform.

    Because lets face it, America is too far gone. You’re on your own. Learn to network and survive or perish. American elites unless they truly came up from the streets or were in the military, lack survival skills and will dehydrate to death in a pile of gold which has zero value in a post collapse society unless you are a pharmacist who needs it to treat arthritis. Its other applications are not applicable in an immediate post-collapse society.

  88. Ten Bears

    What did I say just the other day? Yves closes comments and they all come here.

    This is not a new thing, same as it ever was. Trouble is, her trolls come too.

    And stay …

  89. Thomas Golladay

    kj1313 is a perfect demonstration of people with selective hearing and low information decision making.

    Tim Pool admits he is bad at predictions and has a normalcy bias, he recognizes those flaws as people behave in weird ways to the same situation. Which is why he always tries to stand back and keep hearing the other side and avoid confirmation bias. He isn’t always successful, nor are we as we are humans in an everchanging world.

  90. NR

    As NR shows, he lives in an alternate reality and is not reconcilable.

    Oh, you are projecting, Thomas. I notice you completely ignored the evidence provided debunking your lies earlier in these comments, and you just continually come back with links to crazy Youtube conspiracy theorists.

    You’re clearly hopeless, but for everyone else, the fact is that there were multiple audits of the vote counts, and the only fraud discovered was a Republican pretending to be his dead mother to vote for Trump. That is reality, regardless of whether or not some choose to engage with it.

  91. js

    “I voted Green Party. The days of voting lesser evil are over for me. I will live on, I have essential skills that crosses peoples political filters.”

    Yes we get it your privileged already, ultimate PMC. Thus due to class position not truly inclined to leftism. It’s understood. Atlas Shrugged OTOH seems to have tons of appeal long past it’s sell date for most.

  92. different clue


    Thank you for your interest in our comments. We are always happy to hear from you. Please let us know if you have any other concerns.

  93. kj1313

    @Thomas Golladay Pool keeps saying he’s a liberal when he is laughably not. He is part of the right wing echo chamber, same as Shapiro, Crowder, Limbaugh, etc etc etc.

  94. Walter Cronkite

    I know I’m legacy, but is Tim Pool the most trusted man in America now? He seems a dapper young man.

  95. Willy

    With Tim Pool, the wise one follows the money. Same as Candace Owens or Dave Rubin.

    They worked for peanuts for years as lefties, speaking pretty much the default positions as most working Americans (especially the young). And then suddenly and quite publicly they proclaim that they’ve realized obscure “truths about the left” and turn conservative.

    They’re later seen buying expensive cars and homes. Why crowdfund for peanuts from the poor masses when you can be funded by billionaire plutocrats? If you’re telegenic, can talk fast, and have become so nihilistic about western civilization that you’re willing to sell your souls, this may be the path for you.

  96. Hugh

    Steven Sund the head of the Capitol police has resigned. He had worked for the DC police for 25 years and had been head of its Special Ops Division. Given the differences between how recent protests have been treated, it’s pretty clear that the Trump protesters/rioters were considered peaceful because white.

  97. Willy

    Still, I’m intrigued by their fans. They can repeatedly be wrong, time and time again, over and over, but their fans keep coming back for more. obviously the fans are in it for the “good feelings” and tribal comradery. I also suspect that most of them are evangelicals too.

    Consider Jim Hoft, the dumbest gay conservative in America. Conspiratorial as hell, wrong about practically everything, queer as a two dollar bill… yet his supplicants keep coming back for more. The comments would be a hoot if it wasn’t easy to imagine these morons bashing in Capitol building windows in some patriotic battle against socialism.

  98. Thomas Golladay

    Yet another rational person in an increasingly irrational world.

    Again with Tim Pool, I don’t agree with him on everything, same as I do with Jimmy Dore and others such as Ian. He recognizes the same problems I do and recognizes he has biases and he doesn’t have all the answers. He also knows to sit the fence and cool his passions before acting and potentially making things worse.

  99. Ché Pasa

    Come come. This place hasn’t been invaded by “Yves” Exiles. It’s obviously a clowder of Atrios’ septuagenarian anarchist commenters. Obviously.

  100. Jason

    @ Willy:

    Thanks for that insight on Tim Pool and others. Makes sense.

  101. I didn’t think of myself as criticizing Ian’s management of his site, but that’s what I guess I was doing, and I apologize. It’s his site. My intended target was his menagerie of commenters (i.e. YOU). Thank you for thanking me for my interest in your comments, but I doubt that it will continue much longer and I hope you’re not too crushed. Soon enough you will be deprived of my odious trollery.

  102. Frank Stmaly

    I know for an absolute fact the DOD of the USA has a contingency for dealing with enemies domestic and internal. Anyone not duly elected is not going to take control of anything. This is wargamed all the time. Further yesterday’s farce was by design. Pence & McConnell are not stupid, they did something to discredit those who wanted to challenge the electoral vote counts and Trump. Easy: trump [sic] started the riot and then it was allowed to happen. 4 dead not bad. Coup, madmen, riots, doesn’t matter trump et al will always be considered crazy at best and traitors at worst. What comes next if your poor and in the working class – misery. The only way to create equality and equity in this society is make sure people have enough money. That’s sort of a place holder for a decent life. It can be achieved in a number ways. As a student of Jared Diamond I’d say, there will be blood, & a civil war. But this is a global thing, not just American. In some ways we are at war with reality. Reality doesn’t care. As for god, be careful what you pray for.

  103. Hugh

    Sad news to report, Education Secretary Betsy DeVos has resigned. This on top of Elaine Chao’s resignation earlier in the day.

  104. different clue


    It’s the rats who leave the sinking ship. We will see what other rats try to save themselves from the sinking ship.

  105. bruce wilder

    poor Betsy all alone in that big house . . . and that other big house and the other . . . no one to turn to but a brother with a murderous private army

  106. someofparts

    Scrolling past people we are not interested in reading is so easy. If, for some reason, I can not or will not, scroll past people that don’t say things that interest me, I really don’t see why that is Ian’s responsibility.

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