The horizon is not so far as we can see, but as far as we can imagine

Bernie Wins New Hampshire Primary

He’s only 1.6 percent ahead as of this article, but a win is a win. Buttigieg came in second.

We’ll see if Buttigieg gets any more bounce from this. His national numbers aren’t that great, but his New Hampshire numbers weren’t good until his showing in Iowa.

Bernie and Buttigieg got nine delegates each, Klobucharg received six, no one else got any. This means in delegates, Buttigieg is still one delegate ahead.

Feel free to discuss in comments, etc…

Update: Oh no, the media isn’t biased at all.

Update 2: Interesting exit poll demographic numbers.


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  1. Mark Pontin

    Yes. That small margin is worrisome.

    On the other hand, Nevada and South Caroline are next, and Buttigieg and Klobuchar aren’t likely to do well in either state. While Biden, who might, is already effectively done as a contender, as is Warren.

  2. bruce wilder

    Does Sanders have a ceiling? He got 60% against Hillary in 2016 — where did Bernie’s 2016 voters disappear to?

    Warren is no longer a viable candidate. That is big. Biden looks to sink without a trace. Could the polls that showed him the “frontrunner” for so many months have been fake in some way?

    It really may be Bernie against the billionaire in California! At least that choice would be clarifying in some ways.

  3. Z

    Warren, readying her move into Mikey $B’s arms IMO, talking in her forced, contrived NH farewell speech about how the race has taken an nasty, uncivil turn and that’s she’s the one (with less than 10% in NH and about 15% in Iowa) uniquely positioned to unite the party. Didn’t notice any other candidates complaining about the tone of the other campaigns. Nina Turner from the Sanders campaign did mention on MSNBC about candidates who are against Trump, but still signed off on his military budget (“Hello, somebody,” she said after mentioning Bernie wouldn’t do that) so maybe that’s what ultra-sensitive Liz is talking about.

    Again, I can see her “uniting” the party by adding her faux-progressive credentials to a Mikey $B ticket. I think that possibility has been offered to her.

    More candidates dividing up the pie than in 2016, which was a two candidate race, is at least part of the reason why Bernie’s numbers are worse.

    Biden got his national poll numbers based on name recognition. Most people aren’t expecting when they get a phone call to be asked who they are going to vote for in the primary, especially in states where the primary is weeks away and the candidates haven’t spent much time campaigning in yet, so maybe they just spout out the name they recognize – “yeah, that guy”.

    Biden’s whole case was primarily based on electability. That’s dissolved. I’d have to imagine that any hold he had on the African-American vote will primarily now lean towards Bernie. None of the other candidates have made any inroads on that vote except for Bloomberg and his media blitz and Mikey $B’s stop-and-frisk policy probably hasn’t been fully brought to their attention yet. Biden is one gaffe away from his handlers closing down his operation, and maybe as little as one more poor showing. If he flops in SC it’s hard to see him going much further.

    Yang’s small backing and maybe even Steyer’s to some extent (he is big on climate change) will tend to go Bernie’s way. If and when Tulsi drops out, her small support will almost certainly go his way.

    I expect Bernie to do well in SC and win with a margin greater than both Iowa and NH, maybe very large. NV will be interesting with the bad feelings in 2016 still in mind, the Culinary Union aligning against Sanders, the software they planned to use to rob Bernie shelved, and a YR Pete campaign supporter gate-keeping the vote. I see possibilities for violence in NV and the Bernie Bros being blamed for it.


  4. Z

    If I was the DNC the possibility that would cause beads of sweat to form on my overheated forehead as I toil to arrange the pieces to rig the primary so that they can keep Bernie from the nomination is if they do successfully muscle Bernie from the nomination in the same ham handed fashion they did in Iowa (one major embarrassment, one corrupt insider scheme revealed, and we got 48 states left to go!) and Bernie backs off and lets them run Bloomberg or whomever and there is no third party run is that now the DNC would be empowering the man who the democrats just impeached and tried to remove from office, the guy who they threw all those Russia Russia Russia accusations at, to have to make only one simple campaign promise to basically clinch the election: to do a thorough investigation of the DNC’s conduct during the 2020 democratic primary if reelected. That’s all it would take. The majority of the public, all of MAGA gang and a healthy portion of Bernie’s Army, would be for it and that would unleash a flurry of memes on the internet that an impulsive egomaniac like Donald Trump lives for: of him sitting at his big oak desk in his leather, high-backed executive chair and looking across at the DNC seated on a rickety wooden chair on the other side and The Donald saying, “You’re f*ed”. Not to mention he could walk away from the Oval Office in four years to a $50M advance for a book sequel to The Art of the Deal with a title inspired by Sun Tzu: The Art of Political War.

    Ha! And wouldn’t there be ironic justice in that! The DNC’s stealing the 2016 primary and the leak that followed led to all the Clintonite misdirection that the Russians were behind the DNC leak, though Wikileaks continually insists it was an inside job, which they tried to tie to Trump to keep everyone’s eyes off the fact that their precious DNC, their neo-liberal democratic party presidential candidate sausage factory, is corrupt and was all in for Hillary. None of that stuff that got leaked ever was denied by the DNC and Wasserman-Schultz, the head of it, was forced to resign. Her successor, Donna Brazile, also got busted and resigned.

    That ploy by the Clintonites to misdirect attention from the DNC, backed by their media who only makes ho-hum references to the fact the DNC got busted in 2016 basically working as an arm of the Clinton campaign, was what led to a lot of this Trump-is-Putin’s-evil-twin-cousin nonsense to begin with.

    Would Trump make that campaign promise to clinch the election? Trump, the attention whore who craves to be admired for his shrewdness and for always coming up the winner in the end?

    Could he resist?



    Barely, which, if you think about it, is not really a victory except in the very technical sense of that term.

    This proves my point that many voters, most voters even, are 1/3 of a voter just as many candidates are 1/3 of a candidate. What do you call an electoral system where each respective candidate is 1/3 of a candidate and each respective voter is 1/3 of a voter? I’m not sure, but what I am sure of is, it’s not democracy or democratic by any stretch of the imagination.

    This is shaping up beautifully for Stop & Frisk Mini Mike Bloomberg to sweep Super Tuesday on his way to becoming the presumptive nominee. Iowa and New Hampshire have proven that there is no widespread and spreading movement around Bernie. Such an assertion is pure bluster.

    If you don’t want to be a slave to the oligarchy, you won’t change that by voting. You must change it by force, be it violent or non-violent. The change you seek will not come through the ballot box. Until then, the oligarchy is what you have and, yes, you are a slave to it despite your delusional protestations to the contrary.

    The political class, of which Bernie has been a member his entire career, doesn’t represent you. It feigns to represent you. It represents the oligarchy. It is owned by the oligarchy. It ultimately acquiesces to the oligarchy’s demands and in that process muddles everything it touches and takes on. It stymies and stifles any chance at true progressive change.

    Trump’s election broke that ruling political paradigm and has paved the way to direct oligarchic rule. He has the political class, and thus the political parties, on their heels. When it comes to politics, it’s no longer predictable business as usual. Chaos reigns. The old political square, no matter how much you try, doesn’t fit into the new political circle.

    It’s going to be Bloomberg versus Trump. It’s a direct battle between two oligarchs. One, Bloomberg, represents reformist neoliberalism and the other, Trump, represents full-throated fascism. This is our choice. You can either sit it out and leave it to fate or you can vote to defer full-throated fascism a while longer while you foment a revolution. Once full-throated fascism takes hold entirely, any chance or possibility of a revolution is moot.

    Women should be afraid. Very afraid. Women and minorities will suffer immeasurably once full-throated fascism entrenches entirely.

  6. Z

    Hey 450,

    Who is your number one favorite billionaire? Like say you had to pick one and shine his shoes, which billionaire’s shoes would you shine?


  7. Dan

    For those wondering why Sanders didn’t have as big a margin as last time, someone already mentioned the bigger field cuts into it. Also consider that you might have more conservative-leaning independents or unsatisfied Republicans voting in it, since the GOP primary this year is basically predetermined.


    My wish is that there was no oligarchy and there were no billionaires or multi-millionaires even, but IT IS WHAT WE HAVE and until the likes of you provide me/us with a roadmap of how we get to what we have versus what you wish it would be and/or what I wish it would be, which may be two very different things in fact, then I/we must deal with what we have. Your archaic political square isn’t fitting the current evolved (or devolved if your prefer) political circle, Z. It’s time to update your metaphorical operating system. Windows 95 doesn’t cut it.

    I do not welcome, nor do I want to enable or support, the persecution of women and minorities and that’s exactly what we are getting and are going to get much more of with the oligarch Trump. There are distinctions betwixt oligarchs. Important distinctions. Distinctions that have substantial consequences for various at-risk groups that have historically been persecuted, especially in times of crisis.

    How easily people forget. Those who learned, I mean. Of course, there are those who have never learned and will never learn. Fascism’s growth relies on both groups, those who have learned but have conveniently forgotten and those who have never learned and will never learn, to take hold and flourish.


    Also consider that you might have more conservative-leaning independents or unsatisfied Republicans voting in it, since the GOP primary this year is basically predetermined.

    This, actually, makes Bernie’s technical win in New Hampshire even worse and most likely not a win at all. Trump encouraged his loathsome fascist supporters to vote in the New Hampshire Dem primary since it’s an open primary. Trump has telegraphed that his opponent of choice is Bernie. Therefore, it’s safe to assume that if Trump’s fascist supporters acted on his encouragement and engaged in legal but unethical election meddling, they would have voted for Bernie. Without that election-meddling support from Trump fascists, Bernie wouldn’t have even technically won New Hampshire.

    Of course, we’ll never know how many Trump fascists voted in the primary and for whom, but my scenario if they did, is much more realistic than your scenario or, in the least, both scenarios would have had a canceling effect on one another.

    Fyi, my assumption is that those who read here are intelligent enough to vote for someone based on the issues and practicality and can discuss the reality of all of this without appealing to emotion. There’s what you want and there’s what is. You should be able to honestly and frankly discuss both without getting defensive and/or offensive. Your emotion isn’t going to change the landscape. In fact, it will only serve to blur your vision of it.

  10. To build on a joke that Different Clue made…

    Peter, Peter, caucus cheater
    Had a lead but couldn’t keep her!

  11. anon

    The liberal faction of the Yang Gang will largely go to Bernie. Perhaps the more independent or libertarian Yang members will be a toss up or return to the Republican fold, but I’m not too concerned with that.

    I am very worried about what Warren will do and if she will sabotage Bernie going forward. She is an absolute snake who progressives should not trust. Some of her supporters who were once HRC supporters will only vote for a woman and hate Bernie. Hopefully her progressive supporters will move to Bernie.

    It would not surprise me at all if Warren does not endorse until a nominee is chosen by the DNC or if she tries to boost Klobuchar into a viable contender because “girl power.”


    The political class, of which Bernie has been a member his entire career, doesn’t represent you. It feigns to represent you. It represents the oligarchy. It is owned by the oligarchy. It ultimately acquiesces to the oligarchy’s demands and in that process muddles everything it touches and takes on. It stymies and stifles any chance at true progressive change.

    Case in point. Perfect example. One of so many examples. Amy is a member of the muddling political class. She serves the interests of the oligarchy. Appealing to the likes of Amy will get you zilch. Bloomberg doesn’t have to pander to the likes of Petters. Both are oligarchs, or Petters was for a brief tenure, but there are distinctions between Petters and Bloomberg. Bloomberg is a billionaire by the book. Petters, and Donald Trump too, are, or were in the case of Petters, oligarchs by hook & crook. You may not like the book that helped make Bloomberg a billionaire, I know I don’t, but if that’s the case, until you do something about it, i.e. a revolution, it’s what is versus what should be.

    “Amy Klobuchar had a record that was highly selective on who she prosecuted,” said Schweizer of Klobuchar’s former role as a prosecutor in Minnesota. “I think the evidence is pretty clear. She based that in part on whether you were a campaign contributor to her or not.”

    Klobuchar’s image of being a tough prosecutor is belied by the fact that she didn’t “go after the guy who created the second biggest Ponzi scheme in American history,” explained Schweizer. “That’s a guy named Tom Petters who lived in Minneapolis. We went through the court file, and what you find is, she went after people that worked with Petters, there was clear evidence at the time that this was a Ponzi scheme, there were all sorts of warning signs, but she never even investigated Petters, and you wonder [and] scratch your head, ‘Well, why is that the case?’”

    When [Klobuchar] announced for the U.S. Senate in 2006, Petters Group Worldwide and its employees were some of her earliest and most enthusiastic donors. Just weeks after she announced her candidacy in February 2005, Petters and thirteen employees in his companies all gave her contributions in a single day (March 31, 2005). By the quarterly report released right before the 2006 election, they were her largest contributor by far—donating $71,600 or 32 percent more than her second-largest donor, her old law firm. By the end of 2006, Petters Group Worldwide had contributed more than $120,000 toward her successful bid.

    “You see this pattern where, in one instance, dozens of corporate executives from a single company will send contributions to [Klobuchar’s] campaign, and in two weeks she introduces legislation to benefit that very corporation,” stated Schweizer. “So what you find with Amy Klobuchar is this very selective enforcement. If you’re with her and an insider, you’re going to be taken care of. If you’re not a donor and you’re an outsider, then you’re going to be in serious trouble.”

  13. S Brenann

    C’mon folks; Buttigieg’s subterfuge in Iowa worked, he is now the DNC’s “front-runner”. From out of nowhere another spooked-up “Obama” rises.

    All the Bernie folks applauded when subterfuge was used against other candidates…a little late to complain.

  14. My take is that the election rigging of 2016 was less about blocking Bernie than it was about promoting Hillary. This year they have worries about Bernie’s “electability,” sure, but will they think Klobuchar has a better chance because she’s female? Dream on.

    Bloomberg advertisments are featuring him paling around with Obama, so clearly Obama is now riding that horse after never even putting a saddle on Biden. Interesting.

  15. Tom

    Well Backstabbing Liz Warren is done. Quid Pro Joe is sleepy and on his way out. Pete the Cheat who can’t even rig an election properly will be slaughtered in Super Tuesday. Bloomberg will be destroyed with his record fully exposed.

    MSNBC is a pure hack site. Fox News has been giving Sanders fairer coverage than CNN and MSNBC with Tucker Carlson basically saying Sanders has a fair shot at an Electoral Victory if not robbed of the nomination.

    Meanwhile our rudderless foreign policy resulted in a three way traffic jam of US, Russian, and Syrian troops in fender benders with a minor shootout. All while Turkey is to hold a vote to formally declare war on Syria and is now targeting Regime Airbases and Aircraft.

    Well buckle up this is going to be a bumpy ride.

  16. Willy

    A vote for Bloomberg is a vote for irony. Maybe billionaires cannot fail and can only be failed. Maybe oligarchs divided the country, managing it’s decline (within sheeple acceptable limits), so only an oligarch can unite the country and change things back to allowing their disempowered asses to be max taxed again. Seems like a case of fool me twice, never get fooled again. (Or is it three times?) Shouldn’t voters be judging their candidates on their veracity, consistency and proven record instead of their ability to game the system?

    That said, the rapid decline of Biden is interesting. People have said it was Trump behind it all. So is this the power of the billionaire class we’re talking about?

  17. Jeff in Texas

    Obviously, a two candidate race is going to have very different numbers from a 10 candidate race, even if many of the 10 candidates are weak. Bernie in 2016 got the pro-Bernie vote AND the anti-Hillary vote– which, make no mistake, was very strong (after all she was one of the two most disliked presidential candidates in history, with Trump being the other one).

    Having said that, speaking as a Bernie supporter in 2016 and now, my enthusiasm for him is not what it was. Part of that is he is 4 years older, and I find it ridiculous how many of the leading candidates (including Trump) are 70 or older or MUCH older. But part of that is that I think practically any of the other Dem candidates are less offensive than Hillary was in 2016, so I can basically live with any of them over Trump if I have to– but good lord I do hate Pete the Cheat. They all are deeply flawed, but– other than Pete– I’m not going to crawl over glass to try to vote against them in the primary. I wonder if a lot of potential voters in the Dem primaries feel the same way? Going to be interesting to see who is viable by the time the Texas primary come around– looking like a Bernie v. Bloomberg race at that point, or maybe Bernie v. Bloomberg v. Pete? In which case, my vote is Bernie without hesitation.

  18. nihil obstet

    I know that Mammon is America’s true god and the wealthy are his infallible priests, but I still think Bloomberg would go down big time. The Republicans can saturate the airwaves with disturbing videos. Bloomberg says in 95% of murders the perpetrator is always the same — you can take the description, xerox it, and pass it out to all the cops: male, minorities, 16 to 25 years old. In another video, he says that stop and frisk stop whites too often, and blacks not often enough. He explains the advantages of regressive taxes in taking money from poor people that they would otherwise use for bad behaviors. When NY City Council passed legislation requiring that workers on projects receiving certain city incentives be paid a living wage, Bloomberg vetoed it, saying the bills “are a throwback to the era when government viewed the private sector as a cash cow to be milked, rather than a garden to be cultivated.”

    I think that’s all a toxic brew of racism, authoritarian misuse of police power, and belief in the bracing medicine of poverty to cure the poor of their vices. I’m always amazed at the ability of political fans to insist that their candidate didn’t really mean what he said, but I don’t think the minorities and the poor will cut him as much slack as he needs.

  19. StewartM

    Dan and Jeff nailed the Chris Matthew’s talking point of “Why didn’t Bernie get 60 % of the vote this time? He must be weakening”.

    A more important metric is ‘second choice’ candidates. There was a Quinnipiac poll near the end of January that investigated this. Sanders does pretty well as a second choice candidate too, which explains why he could get 60 % back in 2016.

    Sander’s biggest advantage is that his supporters are far more ‘locked in’ to him than any other candidate. Pat Buchanan–of all people!!–has written that Sanders and his voters remind him of Ronald Reagan and the struggle of Goldwater-style movement conservatism undertook to take over the Republican party up to 1980. The conservatives who fell in love with Reagan and Goldwater were likewise chastised as ‘unreasonable’ and ‘impractical’ by the then-Republican establishment who would likewise destroy Republican electoral prospects, but instead they ushered in (regrettably) an age of conservative hegemony over our politics, economics, and policy for 40-plus years.

    And that’s the only small ray of hope I have about our current situation.

  20. S Brenann


    I agree with your assessment, “Pete the Cheat” is the most odious of the group and has the DNC wetting their pants with arousal. He’s Obama/Hillary without the, [as yet], uncommitted war crimes…or as Obama said once; “an empty vessel in which to pour your dreams”

    …and Bernie will fold, [once again] and gladly support “Pete the Cheat” as will his “movement”. This time, Bernie’s sheepdog speech ought to be a real doozy.

  21. Mark Pontin

    “I don’t think the minorities and the poor will cut him as much slack as he needs.”

    Nor, probably, will the Rustbelt states that saw Wall Street and the corporatocracy funnel 4 million American jobs to China, when Bloomberg is the walking incarnation of New York-based Wall Street.


    It looks like the Trump supporters in Bernie clothing are going to be quite disappointed come November. Bloomberg is going to beat the pants off Trump. A REAL landslide. And then, once inaugurated, hopefully he puts Schiff in as his AG and they put Trump and his family behind bars for the rest of their born days and then go hopefully they go after the NRA and dismantle that terrorist organization completely that is hellbent on minorities genociding themselves via gun violence.

    In a matchup between Bloomberg and Trump, minorities will happily and overwhelmingly choose Bloomberg. It’s disgusting how many so-called progressives want to use the minority card to get Trump reelected. I say so-called because you really can’t be a principled progressive if you enable the reelection of Donald Trump. Trump is an anti-progressive. He’s a fascist.

    Getting Donald Trump elected for a second term and beyond is not a revolution. Get up off your asses and spill your blood in the streets if you want a REAL revolution versus helping to elect a fascist for a second term and beyond with your keyboards from the comfort of your gaming chairs.

    Growing that support will be an uphill battle. A Washington Post poll in January found that 8 in 10 black voters think Trump is racist, while three-quarters of black adults said Trump’s actions have been “bad for African Americans.”

    And even the support Trump’s campaign highlights isn’t always as advertised. A national political action committee, Black Americans to Re-Elect the President, had 35 donors from Pennsylvania in 2019. The Inquirer confirmed identities for 18 of them, all of whom were white. Black Americans for the President’s Agenda, a separate PAC supporting Trump, also has many wealthy white donors.

    Trump has also driven some black Republicans away. James Williams, a former GOP ward leader who changed his registration to Democratic in 2018, said he’s one of at least four African American Republican ward leaders who abandoned the party since 2016.
    “The local Republican Party is now, it’s cultish,” said Williams, who is volunteering with the Democratic presidential campaign of former New York Mayor Michael Bloomberg. “If you’re not with Trump, then you’re not a Republican.”


    This is what gets lost in comparing Bloomberg to Trump and branding Bloomberg a racist when in fact those branding Bloomberg the racist are as much racists themselves if not more so. Let he without sin.

    From The Journal of Black Studies. Bernie played the race card, or minority card if you will. He went low and he does minorities a disservice by allowing the following to be drowned in the obfuscating noise.

    In December 2012, 20 elementary school children fell victim to gun violence. Shortly after the killings occurred, national media outlets instantaneously and simultaneously began covering the tragedy with “calls to action” explicitly voiced by public officials and members of the general citizenry. Gun violence in African American communities has also left an indelible mark on the quality and quantity of life among the youngest members as well. Statistics released by federal law enforcement officials reveal that, collectively, more children of color die each year to gun violence. However, gun-related crimes involving low-income persons and racial and ethnic minorities are framed by the media as a convergence of cultural, environmental, and individual shortcomings and immorality. Consequently, structural and/or policy resolutions to address such crimes involving low-income persons and racial and ethnic minorities are overlooked or even omitted from the national and, more importantly, political discourse.


    I’m always amazed at the ability of political fans to insist that their candidate didn’t really mean what he said, but I don’t think the minorities and the poor will cut him as much slack as he needs.

    We’ll see. We’ll see. I think they will cut him some slack. Fact is, he helped save hundreds of lives in New York City if not more, most of them minorities and he helped remove thousands if not tens of thousands of illegal guns from the mean streets. Guns smuggled into NYC from NRA plantation country.

    “I first met Mike when I was searching for ways to fight against the dangerous gun laws that ripped my son from my life,” McBath, who lost her son to gun violence, said in a statement circulated by Bloomberg’s campaign.

    “Mike gave grieving mothers like me a way to stand up and fight back. Nobody running for president has done more for the gun violence prevention movement than Mike. I am proud to stand with him in this race, and work with him when he is in the White House to keep our communities safe,” she added, referring to Bloomberg’s efforts to boost pro-gun control activist groups.

    “The most vulnerable communities in America cannot weather another four years of a Donald Trump presidency,” Meeks said in a statement. “Too much is on the line to allow that to happen. We need someone in the White House who will unite us behind the common purpose of rebuilding our nation’s infrastructure and driving our economy forward into the 21st century. Mike Bloomberg will do exactly that.”

    By your own logic, Bernie, if you and your supporters criticize these minorities from the Black Caucus for supporting Bloomberg and say they are dumb or they are just doing it for money, you are racist. Looking at the commentary to this article from The Hill, that’s exactly what these hypocrites are doing. It’s dishonorable, Bernie, and it’s cowardly to let your supporters do it for you and then claim you had no idea they were doing it and that you can’t control the tactics of your campaign supporters.

  25. NR

    I’m glad Sanders is winning, but his performance so far has been worrying. He’s lost a LOT of support since 2016, and I don’t think this can be fully explained away just by saying there are more candidates in the race. He actually has more support among non-white voters than white voters, so we’ll see if he can do better in Nevada and South Carolina. I hope he can.

  26. Joan


    You’re not convincing anyone when it comes to voting for Bloomberg. He has a lot of money and will probably get votes via ad spending, sure, but no one under 40 will bother voting for him. Trump has a very passionate base that will make the effort to get to the polls. Bloomberg does not, and rationale like “this is what we have to work with” and “you’re a slave to the system anyways” is something my generation has been told our whole lives and we just don’t care. Fear is not motivating; Hillary tried that in 2016. Fear and despair are reasons to stay home and drink. Hope is motivating, and no one sees any kind of hope in Bloomberg.

  27. Joan


    Agreed. There’s a lot of people who voted for Bernie in 2016 but aren’t voting this time around, citing that he’ll just be swindled out of the nomination and end up campaigning for the new Hillary again. Obviously I still think it’s worth it to vote in the primary, but a lot of people I know don’t think so.

  28. nihil obstet

    Many Americans have been convinced that elections are a form of the game show Family Feud. What you’re trying to do when you vote is guess the most popular answer. This proves you are savvy. It also effectively discourages votes for anyone except so-called “Centrists”. For two years the centrists have done wall-to-wall analyses proving that Americans other than you won’t vote for anyone who isn’t moderate. So you do the smart thing and vote for a continuation of the rule of the Centrists. Did I say that this proves you are savvy?

  29. Mel

    “elections are a form of the game show Family Feud”

    🙂 missing the point that in this game everybody gets a prize,
    in fact, everybody gets the same prize,
    and the real point of the game is to make sure the prize is worth something.

  30. Willy

    Like it Joan. Couldn’t have said it better.

    There’s more than hope and fear. There’s also anger.

    Oligarchic sweetening of the poison, or making it appear so with better propaganda, smoke or mirrors, will eventually not work anymore. Even if Bernie comes under relentless attack from Trump, the Senate, the Judges and the Media to where he can’t get anything done, if most peoples lives continue to get worse and the demand for change increases, any institution seen as ‘centrist corrupt’ will quite likely become targets for mob violence. It’s been the way of things for millenia.

  31. anon y'mouse

    to give short shrift to Bloomberg just because he is a symbol of all that is wrong with this country is poor analysis. so is and was tRUMP.

    people were tired of the 300 head horse raise, and now want some big strong man in a suit to come in and save them. yes, ever “educated” people. they think he has a chance, and believe all of the lies that are being spewed about Sanders (too left, too old, cranky, no one likes him–bs sounds like HS, but most americans are not above that age in mentality, so there you have it). they want someone who gives them confidence.

    Bloomie will be huge in CA. they love technocrats, which he is well able to pass himself off as. regardless of the liberterian shpiel they like to spout about themselves at work or socially. they honestly believe more money means more intelligence, capability, managerial expertise, etc and that these things translate across other spheres of one’s life. they do not mind at all that the government should be run like a corporation. CA already largely is.

    to think one’s opponent is either weak or stupid, or will prove to be is the analysis of idiocy or perhaps naivete’. Bloomie is running the ads right now all over for those people who weren’t inspired much by anyone before, and are tired of the dog&pony show and just want to get “past” tRUMP. these are the same people who don’t understand (and never will) how we got that bozo to begin with. i believe this segment to be massive. few care about the minute details of Soandso’s “plans”. most people unfortunately vote with their gut, and with the limited time alloted for them to participate, which is mostly given to being imbued with MSDNC bullsh*t.

  32. bruce wilder

    A sense of political futility — a form of learned helplessness — is very useful to the powers that be, which I suppose, is why so much energy and intelligence is expended on creating many flavors of political futility.

    Americans, judging only among my acquaintances, are saturated with it. There is never any alternative (except sometimes some fantasy of bloody violence).

    imho, the last ditch Bernie’s candidacy may die in is the deep hole of political futility dug for the American People. The identitarian left is at least as committed to futility as the centrists.

    Democrats were inoculated against political possibility by Obama’s candidacy. I sadly doubt it can unlearned.

    Note to Ian: write an article on why some people never unlearn. Just a thought.

  33. Geoffrey Dewan

    Well, that was all pretty fucking depressing.

  34. Mojave Wolf

    I’m glad Sanders is winning, but his performance so far has been worrying. He’s lost a LOT of support since 2016, and I don’t think this can be fully explained away just by saying there are more candidates in the race. He actually has more support among non-white voters than white voters, so we’ll see if he can do better in Nevada and South Carolina. I hope he can.

    Likewise, NR*! My own theory as to this, esp the bleeding of support in rural areas (and probably among working class voters–tho if so only relative to 2016, he’s still winning here in what little data I’ve seen) is his adoption of the IDpol stuff as opposed to his prior emphasis on class issues, and also some of his statements on immigration.

    Re: the IDpol stuff, going full woke destroyed Beto, insured the stillbirth of Castro and Booker, and badly hurt Warren before she finished herself off w/the obvious backstabbing lie that no one believed. Now, Bernie tacking in this direction may have helped kill those campaigns, but he could’ve won w/out it and meanwhile has hurt himself BADLY among working class independents. What would have been an easy GE win in the fall will now be a nailbiter, and he probably hurt himself in the primary too. Things like “America is racist top to bottom” do NOT help with most people.

    His 2016 position on immigration was good. This time, while his supporters who keep arguing he’s still the same might be right, he sure sounds like he’s for de facto unlimited economic immigration, making a great part of the world eligible for asylum, and has people like AOC saying he’s for ending border enforcement. Most Americans of all races do not want this, and think it will screw up wages. It will also overwhelm the social programs he wants to implement and make us even more overcrowded. Bernie used to know all this.

    Oh, a third thing, his doing things like apologizing to Biden for Teachout’s true article AND letting Linda Sarsour’s smear of Tulsi go unremarked, when Tulsi is the one person w/a D after their name whos’ had his back every step of the way. This makes him look weak and unreliable. He’s still BY FAR the best we’ve got among the leading contenders, but weak and not having reciprocal loyalty is not a good look and among people who aren’t die hards, could swing the election away from him. (this point should stand regardless of your personal feelings about Tulsi; and if you LIKE Tulsi, it could keep have you looking elsewhere if Tulsi never becomes viable)

    (I have a friend who used to be for Bernie who’s trying to convince me Klobuchar is worth looking at now; apparently she actually does have some good plans but as with Kamala and Warren, what good are plans unless one expects follow through? Tho Amy may be more consistent than those two, she still strikes me as a warmongering neolib)

    Before 90% of the commentariat jumps on me, I like Bernie and want him to win. I’ve been praising Bernie since 2016. But these are real and easily identifiable flaws that he needs to fix; if I can see it presumably his opposition has someone vaguely competent who can also see it. A Tulsi VP spot would fix all of this, Nina would fix some of it, and even Klobuchar would be a good fit, though I worry about his surviving the first two years if he has a neolib as VP, even if that person is personally loyal; his VP needs to be someone the establishment also doesn’t like but is ideally younger, female, tough as nails, and willing to take on all comers with whatever the appropriate level of fury.

    *btw, NR, once way back I thought you were and called you a troll. You may not even remember, but I long ago realized I was wrong on this one and feel bad about it. Apologies. (that stands even if you hate this comment)

  35. Willy

    Obama was a con artist. I don’t think people will be fooled into “political reality” by a hopey changey who proclaimed on video that his ‘economic policies were so mainstream he’d be considered a moderate Republican in the 1980s’, again. Not this soon after the fact.

    I highly doubt that at 78, Bernie will suddenly turn oligarchic enabler for the retirement benefits either. And he won’t turn Bananas Esposito either. He’s a lot more like the Fielding Mellish character, excepting the many decades of serious steadfast consistent integrity.

  36. Mojave Wolf

    Back in moderation again. Something I left out of the last comment just in hopes of avoiding the mod bin, this is interesting if true:

    For those who don’t want to click, it’s an article saying that the results matched the exit polls in the 7 of 10 New Hampshire counties that used hand marked, hand counted paper ballots.

    In the other 3, Buttigieg outperformed his exit polls by 10%.

    Had those 3 counties also matched up, Bernie would have had a slightly greater margin of victory and a delegate win instead of a tie, and Buttigieg and Klobuchar would have been neck and neck and even in delegates.

    I’m unfamiliar w/the source, but after what happened in Iowa would not surprise me in the slightest. Would also indicate a pattern of election fraud on someone’s part. (not necessarily Buttigieg, could be on his behalf by someone else and he has naught to do w/it)

  37. Willy

    @ Mohave Wolf
    A fair number of my comments go into moderation too, but they eventually find their way out. It must be an awfully dark place in there. Speaking of technology/technocratic screwups, if Cambridge Analytica was a progression of stuff Obama did, to the point of the whistleblowers for liberal democracy, I wouldn’t be surprised about Buttigieg, he of campaign-app connectedness. What did that guy even accomplish as a public servant? Does anybody know? I know Bloomberg ran the NYC subway system into the ground, pun intended. So much for infrastructural integrity.

  38. bruce wilder

    this is interesting if true

    Will we ever know if any thing is ever true ever again?

    The vote count in the 2016 California primary, I am convinced, was corrupted and the scope for vote count fraud has been greatly increased since.

    The role propaganda plays in setting us up for this nonsense is basically aimed at making everyone an idiot. To passively accept “tech” solutions without question and then be interested in the consequences only if what is hidden is shown to be true. (If they wanted you to be interested in a true thing, they would not hide it.)

  39. Willy

    Will we ever know if any thing is ever true ever again?

    Yes we will. Perhaps.

    The corporate media wants to remain financially viable. But podcasters like Joe Rogan have become so popular that very famous characters are now clamoring for his time. Krystall Ball of ‘removed by the corporate media for dissing Hillary’ fame, has stayed relevant by going podcast as well. She laid out an interesting case for Buttigeig’s cheating. And there are many other ‘reporters’ headed that way.

    The point is that if the media keeps doing its tribalized content and their ‘diverting-from-neoliberal-reality’ style of reporting, it’ll run out of viewers who cannot relate to the skewed reality being presented. Who cares about Trump and Russia and Ukraine every damned day when the steady job is being outsourced.

    People will go to where they can better relate to the presentation, and to each other via comments to discuss the daily events. Advertisers will follow and the corporate media will have to adapt, change, or die.

    Blogging is said to be owned by liberals, and radio by conservatives. Draw your own conclusions to that. Personally, I think it has to do with the style of thinking preferred by each.

    I got sidetracked. What were we were talking about?

  40. bruce wilder

    IDpol is designed to be offensive and alienating and, surprise! It is.

    I think it is tough for any politician who wants to be leading a crowd, when a crowd volunteering to be led seems to demand acquiescence to some shared idiocy.

    The country needs a reality check, but I would not count on actually being told the truth being welcomed.

    People still seem to love “tough talk” about “hard choices” and “getting things done”. They do not always love actually thinking as opposed to feeling their way thru a predictable narrative.

    I would not be entirely shocked if Bloomberg’s campaign had a role in surfacing those stop-and-frisk audio recordings. If you are a Republican running for the Dem nomination with your eye on the big prize, alienating the Right Sort of yapping Democrat on certain issues attracts more support than it loses (adjusted for depressing turnout!) The condemnations from the Twitter are unintentionally persuasive, of the wrong people for the wrong reasons.

    Sanders, to succeed on his own terms, really needs to be able to engage in conversations that end with narrow agreement on policy framed by agreement to disagree on ideology, motives, et cetera. The Woke want a revolution in shared consciousness, which is not compatible with a revolution in material conditions and institutions of political economy.

  41. Tom

    Vietnam just order 10,000 people in a commune quarantined. Article to follow when they link it.

    This follows California ordering 1,000 people to self-isolate, the revelations that this virus can incubate for 24 days, be spread by handling money as it can live on surfaces for 5 to 20 days, is airborne, can spread through water pipes, etc.

    And did I mention this virus can survive in hot and humid climes per lab tests?

    I think its safe to say that China screwed us all by being so authoritarian that no one dared to raise the alarm lest they look foolish before Xi or caused him embarrassment.

    And now there is starting to be real supply disruption in global trade chains.

  42. Z

    Lyin’ Brennan:

    All the Bernie folks applauded when subterfuge was used against other candidates…a little late to complain.

    Remember when this happened? When “the Bernie folks applauded when subterfuge was used against other candidates”? No?

    You wouldn’t because this comes from a lying, selfish piece of trash who defended Bill Clinton for two decades, a grown “man” who gets his jollies … tee-hee-hee … by lying and then acting like he’s trolling people when they respond, and would like nothing more than to have Sanders flame out so that our chances for medicare-for-all would go into the waste bin and tens of millions would continue without affordable health care. Why? Because Lyin’ Brennan is already covered.

    Tee-hee-hee, Brennan, I guess you trolled me again. Tee-hee-hee.

    You defending Bill Clinton for two decades and telling people who criticized him “to go work for Pravda” says everything about you and your character.


  43. Z


    Yeah, I’m worried about Warren too: the “uniter” who keeps trying to divide the party along gender lines. She’s doing her best to keep her followers from defecting to Bernie once she drops out. I think she’ll either endorse Amy K or hop onto Mikey $B’s bus to give his campaign a veneer of progressivism.

    She’s hitting on Bernie again, taking the NV Culinary Union’s female leader’s side that the Bernie “Bros” are being mean to the union leader and her fellow union members for responding to the mailer the union leader is sending out to union members criticizing Bernie’s medicare-for-all as an attack on their health plans. This female NV Union leader also happens to have a position in CAP, the “progressive” think tank that Neera Tanden heads.

    Note the continual cynical weaponizing of gender as a political tool. The YR Pete backer that NV installed to “gate-keep” the NV primary is also a female. Can hear it now: “What are you Bernie “Bros” calling women liars again?”



    One of Bernie’s biggest supporters, and always has been, with a substantial audience he influences is the animated, bombastic, militant Cenk Uygur. This is the revolution? Seriously? You call this a revolution? You call this anti-establishment? Get out of my face with this sh*t. Yeah, Hugh, you’re right. Meet the new boss, same as the old boss.

    The political class, by virtue of Citizens United, is now superfluous. The political class is like the health insurance companies. A wasteful and restrictive unnecessary layer. Direct oligarchic rule is here and it’s not going away. The likes of Bernie had many years to foment a revolution against this trend towards autocracy if he was truly serious in his conviction, but he/they failed. It is what we have. Cenk Uygur and his ilk, which is representative of Bernie’s support, does not a revolution make let alone a resistance to fascism.

    I don’t watch TYT but I stopped momentarily on the show yesterday and they were going on and on with their disingenuous anti-establishment tripe and then cut to a commercial. The commercial was Cenk’s cohost, Ana Kasparian, pimping for Wall Street. No lie. This is beyond irony. So far beyond, we need a new word for it.

    This is what Ana was pimping. A stock trading company called Dough. There is no resistance and there will be no revolution. It’s all fake. Considering that, I will remove the middle man political class myself and take the most benevolent, or least malevolent, oligarch for $1,000 Alex.

  45. I think we focus too much on elections, here in the US.

    By way of contrast, from Japanese friends, I hear that when it’s time to elect a new government, in Japan, they instead focus on erections.

    Seems to work for them.

  46. @Mojave Wolf

    “For those who don’t want to click, it’s an article saying that the results matched the exit polls in the 7 of 10 New Hampshire counties that used hand marked, hand counted paper ballots.

    In the other 3, Buttigieg outperformed his exit polls by 10%.”

    Oh, wow, that’s sensational, if it’s true. I think the gold standard for tolerable exit poll deltas is something like 3%.

    I heard Jimmy Dore just this morning going on about Bernie being cheated, but I don’t recall anything about exit polls.

    If this is legit, it represents an opportunity for either Trump, Bernie, or both to focus national attention on the election fraud issue. But I doubt either has it in them to do so.

    I think it’s still true that Israel uses paper ballots. It can be done.


    The hypocrisy is everywhere. In every nook & cranny. It’s permeated any and all things. Someone mentioned China up above. Rush Blimpblow, the proud recipient of the Medal of Freedom which puts him in league with Rosa Parks, has consistently decried the Chinese over the years. His favorite term for them is the Chicom. Trump supporters, not hypocrticial duplicitous Blimpblow who knows and doesn’t care but instead the contemporary Lester Ballards in the crowd, believe Trump is getting tough on China. Trump is doing no such thing. Trump is getting rich off of China as their orange dayglo whore. When Trump does a deal, it’s for himself, not for you. Not for his supporters. Witness the many family farms that have gone belly up due to Trump’s terrible trade policy while he enriches himself at the Chinese tit.

    As AFP reported via the South China Morning Post last week, the developer of that project just outside of Jakarta had secured the half billion in funding, in addition to another $500 million from Chinese banks, 72 hours before Trump’s Sunday tweet on the Chinese telecom company ZTE. Trump’s family business has a deal with that developer to include the Trump name on the resort, which also includes hotels and a golf course.

    “President Xi of China, and I, are working together to give massive Chinese phone company, ZTE, a way to get back into business, fast,” Trump tweeted Sunday. “Too many jobs in China lost. Commerce Department has been instructed to get it done!”

    He added another tweet on the subject Monday, saying that ZTE “buys a big percentage of individual parts from U.S. companies.”

    This is also reflective of the larger trade deal we are negotiating with China and my personal relationship with President Xi,” he wrote.


    ….if most peoples lives continue to get worse and the demand for change increases, any institution seen as ‘centrist corrupt’ will quite likely become targets for mob violence. It’s been the way of things for millenia.

    This is pure projection and wishful thinking. It has not been the way of things. Revolts and revolutions have always been misguided from the start and have always ended up a tragedy with the wrong people being targeted and victimized. Trump is case in point. Centrist corruption, or the endemic corruption of a now superfluous political class considering Citizens United, gave us the fake populist reactionary Trump who blames society’s ills on the most vulnerable amongst us — the hard-working immigrants escaping despotism and the Mooslims. Nothing is being done to stop him and his throngs of fascists. America’s institutions are failing.

    I’ll repeat it because it can’t be said enough, women and minorities should be very afraid. Fascism, which was formerly creeping but is now sprinting, is coming for them. With a Bloomberg presidency, full-throated fascism can be held at bay for another eight years. That time should be used wisely, otherwise, fascism will be back and even stronger. Four more years of Trump or more, and it’s too late. Bloomberg needs to jail these fascists when he’s elected. That is crucial. Bill Barr needs to go to jail. All of Trump’s enablers need to go to jail. The trials need to be televised so the world can see what needs to be done to be done to fascists. It’s that crucial. Anything less is spineless. Fascism feeds on spinelessness and ignorance.


    If this is legit, it represents an opportunity for either Trump, Bernie, or both to focus national attention on the election fraud issue. But I doubt either has it in them to do so.

    And here we have it. Hinting that Trump should deny he lost in November and claim it was election fraud. The Senate has given him the green light to nullify the results in November if the results don’t favor him and they won’t. Barr’s DOJ will support him in this effort and the Congress and the Judicial Branch, two failed institutions, will be powerless to do anything about it. There’s no doubt about it, this is a constitutional crisis, a fascist putsch if you will, and because America’s institutions have failed, nothing can be done about it. Donald Trump has proven there is no beyond the pale for him. Anything goes and will go.

  50. metamars

    “Hinting that Trump should deny he lost in November and claim it was election fraud”

    I wasn’t hinting that.

    I’m just referring to the fact that evidence of hackable machine votes abound, as well as what should be unacceptable deviations from exit polls (and regular polls, for that matter) – these have favored both Democrats and Republicans; and furthermore, I know of suspicious (apparent) ballot stuffing going on in Democratic areas, from a first cousin (that I live with).

    Yet, even though Bernie was definitely screwed during the primaries in 2016; and Trump not only is aware of what was done to Bernie, but doubtless knows about other Democratic screw jobs of Republicans, neither has lead the charge to switch to more secure paper ballots.

    Neither has led the charge to reveal the truth about the assassinations of JFK, MLK, or RFK; nor the truth about UFO’s. The media has made such inquiries toxic, and I’m guessing that neither has the gumption to tread on sacred myths of {cough}{cough} the Republic.

    As for Barr, if he was into protecting the rule of law, never mind Trump, why haven’t Hillary Clinton, James Comey, and John Brennan been indicted? Why did Barr not make sure that Epstein wasn’t offed, to begin with; and the crime thoroughly investigated, after the fact?

    I’m not ashamed to be a conspiracy theorist, but I much prefer plausible conspiracies….

  51. highrpm

    i see articles discussing the makeup of the sanders admin. and defining/designing/implementing a $50 trillion makeover of programs. utter idiocy. (ian, for all your 13K book digestions, where is your wisened response to such space fantasies? and we criticize the christians and their space god/ warrior god/rapture/hell fantasies?!) back to reality: how long has it taken apple and amazon to grow to $1 Trillion in annual revenues? vet our presidential candiates ceo talents by requiring they ceo one of these corps rather than cake walking through the tee bee debates and state primary scenes. duh…i’m speechless.

  52. NoPolitician

    > vet our presidential candiates ceo talents by requiring they ceo one of these corps rather than cake walking through the tee bee debates and state primary scenes.

    This is just silly. For-profit corporations are very different from the government. If Apple doesn’t want to support the Macbook because it isn’t profitable, they just kill it. The government can’t decide that Indiana now sucks and just get rid of it.

  53. Willy

    450, it’s not all black and white. Cenk has said repeatedly that he’s a capitalist. I don’t watch them that much, but they seem to want intelligently regulated capitalism and favor Scandinavian political models. Par for the course around here.

    Revolts and revolutions have always been misguided from the start and have always ended up a tragedy with the wrong people being targeted and victimized.

    Not really. Most revolutions start with good intentions, usually to alleviate some populist pain, and the energy behind them sometimes does get captured by unethical power players with their own agendas. The Iranian Revolution is a good example. The American evangelical culture wars another.

    the fake populist reactionary Trump who blames society’s ills on the most vulnerable amongst us — the hard-working immigrants escaping despotism and the Mooslims.

    Again, it’s not black and white. Not all immigrants are hard working. But most will work for less pay than the citizens they replace. And then Trump uses that replaced citizen angst for his own personal benefit. Again, a revolution to enforce immigration laws captured by an unethical power player.

    What’s the benefit of going full misanthrope? I know lots of decent people. Most people are reasonably civilized and want to play well with each other and their society. I really don’t think that going full misanthrope on their asses will sell misanthropy very well. Or help maintain our liberal democracy.

  54. Ché Pasa

    We’ve been in a continuous constitutional crisis for decades, and none of the candidates wants to say so, though I think they all know what the problem is and what could be done about it. The notion of expanding the supreme court and changing the way judges are put on the bench is one way to deal with part of the problem, but discussion of it has disappeared from public notice. In other words, the crisis has been normalized, and to the extent it remains a crisis, it is considered an opportunity for those prepared to take advantage.

    I don’t see any of the Democratic candidates except Bloomberg ready to do that, and he’s a snake on the same level as Trump. Birds of a feather and all that. Thing is Bloomberg could buy and sell Trump many times over and get richer in the process. 450 might cheer but not me. These kinds of fights do nothing for the masses, it’s that simple.

    I’ve been concerned about Bernie’s age. It’s not just the infirmities that come with age, it is that his thinking hasn’t kept up with the times (not that any other Democratic candidate’s has). Bernie’s prescription would have been wonderful 20 – 30 years ago. Now? Our reality has changed so much that even if he could get done what he recommends, it wouldn’t accomplish what’s needed.

    I noticed last night that the woman (of color) who coined the term “identity politics” is a Bernie supporter, quite proudly so. The freak-out over identity politics is mostly generated and sustained by rightist propaganda. In the real world, it’s barely a thing. Those who are offended by it would most certainly be offended by something else if it went away.

    Bernie may well have tapped the limit of his natural constituency — around 25% of the current electorate. Truth is, that ought to be enough to be elected, but the way our system works, it isn’t. 50-60% isn’t enough because the system is biased toward the right. We’ve seen over and over again how minority support for a rightist president can win repeatedly, but not so for a leftist. None of the Democrats who have been in office since LBJ have been leftists, and LBJ blew his chances with the war in Vietnam.

    So I hope Bernie does well, but the road ahead won’t be smooth for anyone.

  55. Joan


    Agreed. This is why the Trump supporters actually got their candidate, when the Republican party was showing every sign up of trying to finagle the nomination to someone one.


    Willy, sure, some immigrants aren’t hard-working but most immigrants are, especially those from Latin America. This has been my experience. They’re hard-working and industrious and they sacrifice a great deal. They live a meager but happy existence and one reason they’re happy is because of family and community. They do not take the jobs of other citizens. The jobs they take are the jobs American citizens will not take. Yes, these jobs pay less. That’s why they’re available. But that’s another issue altogether even though it tangentially relates to immigration. A living wage. At what wage will born & raised Americans be willing to work in the fields harvesting the crops? At what wage will they be willing to do the work immigrants now do? Tell me. I’d like to know where that sweet spot is if there is one. I’m talking about doing the job right with a non-combative attitude, not just showing up to pick fruit for $50,000/year without giving much effort but giving a ton of attitude.

    A revolution? Seriously? You call the support Trump has received a revolution? Bull. That’s no revolution. Obese opioid-addicted diabetics are incapable of a revolution, but they’re very capable of supporting and voting for an orange fascist dildo to stick it to their favored defenseless scapegoats.

    I’m not being misanthropic, Willy, I’m being a realist.


    450 might cheer but not me. These kinds of fights do nothing for the masses, it’s that simple.

    Jesus, I’m not cheering. If you only knew. How many times do I have to type it? I don’t like that it’s this way. But it is the way it is and I have to deal with it as it is to get to what should be and as part of that process not contribute to burning the metaphorical house down, meaning making every effort to avoid enabling fascism.

    Fyi, I have no skin in the game. I’m not in the stock market. I have no retirement. I will probably die early as a result. I’ve accepted this as my fate. So yeah, I take umbrage with Bernie supporters like Cenk Uygur and Ana Kasparian pimping for Wall Street all the while criticizing Bloomberg for being a billionaire. Bloomberg is a billionaire by the book, unlike Donald Trump the crook. A chapter in that book is Wall Street in whatever regulated form. Bloomberg made his fortune because of Wall Street and when Wall Street was much more regulated than it is today, in fact.

  58. Willy

    Willy, sure, some immigrants aren’t hard-working but most immigrants are, especially those from Latin America. This has been my experience. They’re hard-working and industrious and they sacrifice a great deal. They live a meager but happy existence and one reason they’re happy is because of family and community. They do not take the jobs of other citizens. The jobs they take are the jobs American citizens will not take. Yes, these jobs pay less. That’s why they’re available.

    Sounds like specious baloney to me. You are not speaking from personal experience or very rationally.

    You speak of Latins. If Latins are all so hard-working and industrious and sacrificial and family and community, please tell me why Latin nations aren’t the leaders of the civilized world? Why is Mexico not wealthier than Japan? Shouldn’t their corporations have taken over places like South Korea by now?

    Drive by any Home Depot parking lot and ask any of them how much they want to do the most menial of work you have available, then go on your Nextdoor network to see if you can get a neighborhood kid to do the same for less. I have. I’ve worked alongside undocumenteds. Maybe it’s just back luck, but I’ve found out personally and many times, that their care about quality and quantity is highly self-serving (varying on a case by case basis) and not any kind of innate characteristic earned from desperation and hardship. I’ve found that they quickly adapt to American economic culture (adapt, not covert) and will turn into normal people just like the rest of us, with the honest ones remaining fairly honest and the scammers becoming better scammers.

    The American citizen workers who are pissed off aren’t pissed off because of any fascist “racism”. They’re pissed off because their skill careers, whether it be house framer or data programmer or physian, is under sever pressure from illegal immigrants, who outside of cheaper labor, are a draw on the American system.

  59. Willy

    At what wage will born & raised Americans be willing to work in the fields harvesting the crops?

    As young teens we picked berries in the Willamette for summer money. We all went down to the church where a van would take all the kids to a farm and we’d be paid by the flat. If you were fast and accurate you could pay for your new minibike in a couple months, after taxes. The minibike company made its profit and Uncle Sam could pay for the new highway.

    I remember seeing my first Mexican family out there. I remember thinking how cool it was that the church was sponsoring these refugees from some drug infested hellhole. But that was before there were so many of them we had to change teenage careers and mow lawns. And then that got taken over. Then restaurant cooking and house painting and roofing and fishing up in Alaska.

    Since they don’t pay much taxes and send most money back home, our economy suffers and Uncle Sam has to finance the highway on the backs of our children.

    You were being misanthropic when you proclaimed that any kind of successful, beneficial revolution is impossible.

  60. Willy

    I take umbrage with Bernie supporters like Cenk Uygur and Ana Kasparian pimping for Wall Street all the while criticizing Bloomberg for being a billionaire.

    One of the most black and white backwards comments I’ve ever seen here.

  61. KT Chong

    I say this as a Bernie supporter myself:

    Bernie has the best chance to beat Trump in the general election, BUT Bernie has already lost to Trump.

    I’ve mentioned this hear before: back in 2016, when almost every media pundits and pollsters predicted that Hillary would defeat Trump in a landslide, only TWO university professors, HELMUT NORPOTH and ALLAN LICHTMAN, correctly predicted that Trump would win and become the President. Prof. Norpoth used a scientific model called the “Primary Model”, which uses the turnout sizes of the early state primaries to gauge voter enthusiasm for any individual candidates — and to “calculate” the final winner of the general election. (The “early” primary states taken into consideration are New Hampshire and South Carolina; caucus states are NOT considered.)


    Using primary turnouts as the criteria, Bernie has already lost to Trump, by a wide margin.


    It’s just math, no personal bias or emotion.

  62. KT Chong

    Helmut Norpoth predicting Trump winning 2016 before it happened:

    Allan Lichtman making the same prediction, based on a different set of qualitative instead of quantitative criteria:

  63. Willy

    Trump is the only real Republican candidate since he’s been keeping more conservative promises than has been seen in a while, and Bernie has many competitors who appear qualified and appeal more to their various factions. What’s Rapoza’s track record for predictions?

    538 calls it even odds, but they seemed to have forgotten that people can lie when polled, that last time around. It’d be nice if everybody could be better at quantifying and factoring in variables like “percentage of fucking liars” or “energy sucking field competition”. Plus besides those two nobody else was smart enough to see Trump coming, though Bannon claims he was. Ian… maybe Michael Moore.

    Since I’m in a gabby mood, here’s some street wisdom for any sociopath fighters.

    People like Trump are expert at spotting personal weakness, weaknesses which healthy normals can also see but usually forgive since ‘throwing stones’, ‘glass houses’, ‘we’re all human’, etc.. Trump will then hammer at the ‘weakness’ continuously and mercilessly until others join in and the target capitulates. It’s a common sociopathic tactic. Born sociopaths themselves usually have such high self-esteem they think they’re supermen and that everybody else is inferior to them, regardless of any the evidence to the contrary. It’s also called moral insanity. But they’re sane enough to observe how naïve and simple normals can be. The naive then confuse psychopathic hubris for earned confidence, and a mobbing of the target can ensue at the behest of the “alpha.”

    You have to confront this kind of shit head on without backing down. And keep it simple. Most onlookers cant parse out the truth very well and will support the guy who appears most confident. As far as reasoning with sociopaths, they cannot be swayed by any kind of reason since reason isn’t the goal. The goal is dominance, as well as the support of as many weak-minded supplicants as possible to where any better equipped thinkers will think they’re outnumbered and lay low lest they get mobbed as well.

    Mini Mike has many weapons to counter that Trumpism. So does Crazy Bernie. They need to defend quickly and concisely with immediate sharp attacks at Trumps own glaringly obvious weaknesses. Done cleverly and consistently enough while always keeping ones head, Trump should crack and lose his temper and reveal himself. He might even try to take a swing at the other.

  64. Plenue

    @KT Chong

    “It’s just math, no personal bias or emotion.”

    Impossible. Equations are written by people, and people have bias, even when they try not to.

    Regardless, those two guys models are bunk because all mathematical models of human behavior are bunk. They just happened to be correct in that election. There was always going to be an outcome of some kind, either Trump would win or he would lose. That doesn’t mean a model projecting he would win has somehow tapped into the super secret sauce of reality.

  65. Plenue


    Japan is a fake democracy protectorate of the US that has essentially been a one-party state for more than half a century.

    Japanese don’t pay much attention to politics because it’s literally the same shit year after year. Anyone who is idealistic and strives for real change very quickly gets those notions beaten out of them by the stagnant reality of Japanese politics.

    If anything is going to change there it’s probably going to have to happen with the mass die-off of the now elderly people who have dominated the political scene for their entire lives.


    Willy, Willy, Willy. Surely you’re familiar with The Associated Farmers of California. It was a fascist organization comprised of, you guessed it, farmers. It was very much anti-union and anti-labor. It sought to break any organizing attempts by farm laborers. This book explains the appeal Mexicans had for these fascists. It wasn’t the Mexicans’ fault. They just wanted a job and were willing to work hard under terrible conditions and keep their heads down and their noses clean. You can’t blame the slave labor, Willy. You must blame the slavers. Building a wall is not the answer. A living wage is a large part of the answer.

    The fascists kill me. They want slave labor and they have slave labor and they decry the slave labor they demand and have. Let’s take Texas as an example. It’s always been strongly anti-union and anti-regulation. Business owners and lawmakers in Texas are the ones responsible for the flood of immigration. They want slave labor. They have slave labor. And yet they help elect Donald Trump to build his stupid wall that presumably is intended to stop the flow of the slave labor Texas clearly has and wants more of. Get out of my face with that hypocritical bullcrap.

    You want to change the equation, Willy, throw the fascist lawmakers and business owners in jail in the border states and replace them with decent people who will pay a living wage. Once you do that, you’ll find you will still need immigrants. But that’s never going to happen, Willy, because it’s so much easier to blame the slaves.

  67. KT Chong

    I think here is how exactly the whole thing will play out:

    After Super Tuesday, Bernie will NOT be able to win the decisive majority of delegates, (i.e., 2,376 of all 4,750 delegates.) So the final decision go to the DNC and super-delegates. However, the DNC and superdelegates will want to stay out of it — because they know Bernie supporters will refuse to accept their decision. So, the DNC and superdelegates will NOT step in. Instead, they will instruct the candidates to work out a deal among themselves.

    As a general rule: when a dropped-out candidate endorsed another candidate, all the delegates he won would transfer to that other candidate. That means, at current count, Bernie has won 21 delegates from Iowa and New Hampshire. Michael Bloomberg already got 43 delegates — which he will eventually get from Bootyjuggs, Klobuchar, Warren and Biden.

    I can already tell you what the candidates’ final deal will be: all the centrist/establishment/moderate candidates will combine their delegates and transfer all his/her delegates to… Michael Bloomberg, (whom IMO will squeeze out all other establishment candidates on Super Tuesday.) You know as well as I do that those centrist/moderate candidates will NOT give their delegates to Bernie. And frankly, they should not — because their own supporters voted for a centrist/moderate/establishment candidate in the primaries, and Bernie does not reflect those people’s politics or votes.

    (So Bloomberg’s strategy is becoming clearer now: he expects other centrists/moderates to drop out — and then take over their delegates from early primary states.)

    So, the DNC and superdelegates will NOT step in to make a decision. The candidates themselves will make the decision… based on the “will” of their supporters, and Bernie will still lose.

    Bernie is to be blamed as well: he cannot just “barely win” in every primary state, and keep limping from one win to another. He needs to win every state DECISIVELY, with a huge margin, beating out the combined delegates of other establishment candidates. He will need to win the majority of delegates BY HIMSELF, (i.e., >2,376 delegates.) Otherwise, he will not make it.

    Which could actually turn out to be a blessing in disguise — because I am starting to see the numbers, (i.e., the turnouts of the early primary states on both Democratic and Republican sides.) I think NONE of the Democratic candidate will able to beat Trump. If Bernie wins the nomination and then loses to Trump, it will be devastating to the progressives movements — everyone will blame the failure on progressive movements and socialism. Progressives will NEVER be able to recover from that fatal blow.

    (IMO, Nancy Pelosi’s idiocies — or probably even calculated betrayals — i.e., the failed Russiagate investigation and the even bigger impeachment blunder — have fired up and re-energized Trump’s base, and now Democrats are at an enthusiasm disadvantage.)

    That is my objective analysis and forecast. Personally, IMO after this election, progressives should just split from the Democratic Party. Adios, be done with those Republican Lites and go our own way. Build our own party from ground up, as challenging and difficult as it will be.

  68. bruce wilder

    Once you do that, you’ll find you will still need immigrants.

    If all your arguments ultimately just circle back to no real change, if every argument is designed only to deflect criticism on its way to no where, why do they have to be so many and (collectively) so long?

  69. Z

    This is rich:

    “Documents reveal DNC was ‘intimately involved’ in development of troubled Iowa caucus app”


  70. bruce wilder

    The U.S. political culture is degenerate. NC had a link to a lovely essay on cheating and lying as markers of elite political culture — maybe it extends all the way down, the essay did not say that and I do not know.

    But, it is remarkable to me how much the rivalry among factions comes down to advocating for cheating as policy: war without just cause, poisoning the environment as a job and profit creation strategy, predation as finance. And, so often resistance consists of limp acceptance of implausible denial. Or, making up absurd stories.

    The way the two Parties have mirrored each other’s scandals is phenomenal.

    In my own State of California and City of Los Angeles, a system of vote counting has been instituted that makes tampering as easy as calling Uber, and few can muster even impotent concern. Meanwhile, a narcissistic Republican billionaire is instituting a friendly takeover of the cadre and infrastructure of what little remains of the Party of the People.

  71. Z

    Hey 450,

    You’re meal ticket’s campaign run is f*d, pal …

    “Why Is Bloomberg’s Long History of Egregious Sexism Getting a Pass?”

    “The surging Democratic presidential candidate has fielded some 40 sexual harassment and discrimination lawsuits brought against him and his organizations over decades.”

    There’s no way he can even buy himself the nomination in a brokered convention with this. Not with all the Weinstein stuff and the Me Too movement. He’s done.

    Bye-bye, Mikey $B!


  72. Z

    While the Democratic National Committee over the past 10 days has tried to distance itself from the troubled app that threw the results of the Iowa caucuses into disarray, a copy of the contract and internal correspondence provided to Yahoo News demonstrates that national party officials had extensive oversight over the development of the technology.
    An unaffiliated Democratic operative in Iowa provided Yahoo News with a copy of the contract between Shadow and the Iowa Democratic Party. The contract, which was signed on Oct. 14, 2019, and refers to Shadow as the “Consultant,” specified that the company had to work with the DNC and provide the national party with access to its software for testing.
    The contract also specifies that Shadow agrees to “provide DNC continual access to review the Consultant’s system configurations, security and system logs, system designs, data flow designs, security controls (preventative and detective), and operational plans for how the Consultant will use and run the Software for informational dissemination, pre-registration, tabulation, and reporting throughout the caucus process.”
    Yet the contract demonstrated that the DNC should have had the opportunity to foresee some of the problems. One provision in the contract says Shadow would provide “monthly written updates to the DNC regarding the Software status and timeline for implementation.” It also required Shadow to work with outside consultants and cybersecurity specialists, which the DNC could “choose in its sole discretion.”
    According to the source who worked on the caucus, the DNC did have Shadow work with an outside cybersecurity firm. The source blamed the DNC and its security consultants for some of the issues that took place with reporting the results on caucus night.
    “They were intimately involved in this process,” the source said of the DNC, noting the committee’s deputy CTO, Atwater, was on multiple conference calls during the app’s development.

    The DNC claims that they wanted to make sure the software was secure so the Russians couldn’t hack into it. Here, we are with the Russians again.

    Like I said, if the DNC f’s over Bernie and no third party run is forthcoming, they leave themselves open to the Machiavellian master political move by Trump to clinch the election by promising to investigate the DNC’s conduct during the 2020 primary if he gets reelected. He won’t even have to do it to win, but he still might just for the ego boost of it, just for the perception that he outsmarted the democrats. And for the spite.


  73. Z

    Goes to show too how desperate the DNC is to stop Bernie and how afraid they are of his movement. And that their rigging operations aren’t likely to go smoothly.

    They try to dispirit his movement by making it look smaller at the polls than it really is as well as take votes and delegates away from him.

    They must have been counting on that software to allow them to f’ Bernie in NV. Now that they don’t have it, they called in Neera Tanden to lay some pressure of the Culinary Union’s union head, who has a position with CAP, which Neera is president of. And they install one of YR Pete’s backers to gate-keep the vote. A woman too of course so that the Bernie Bros can’t attack her for cheating without being called misogynists.

    They may have stolen delegates from Bernie in Iowa but I’m of the opinion that it will be expensive to them later. They would have been much happier if they were able to do it smoothly and imperceptibly through their software. They’d have NV wrapped then too as well and they wouldn’t have suffered such a massive blow to their credibility in front of the whole world. They’re going to pay for it. They’re walking a thin line right now.


  74. Z

    Both of those stories … the DNC being involved in the development of that software (which they were far from forthcoming about) and Mikey $B’s large number of sexual harassment accusations … are potentially politically game-changing events.

    All it takes is a few people to start talking …


  75. Z

    I think we’ve seen Peak YR Pete. Iowa and NH are too very Caucasian states and his totals were probably significantly inflated in Iowa through the software his campaign “invested in”. I’d love to know the terms of that investment. The more you watch YR Pete the less you like him. He’s more attached to the camera than voters. He doesn’t wear good on people.

    Warren is saying tweakier sh*t every day. She’s a mess. She’s embarrassing herself.

    Biden is out on his feet.

    Amy K is plucky but I can’t see her appealing to anyone but white people.

    Mikey $B may have some big public image problems on his hands, and if this sexual harassment accusations start getting traction he’ll be out of consideration too.

    The left has never had a clearer path to presidential power since FDR, if you consider him a Leftie. Our biggest obstacle is the DNC.



    What’s next, Z? I bet you’re going to tell us Bloomberg is an anti-semite. You can throw the whole kitchen sink at him, Z, nothing will stick. Trump has proven that. Trump has set the precedent. He’s cleared the path. Remember what Trump said? He said when you’re rich and famous like him you can do anything you want to women including and especially grabbing their pussies. That got him elected. It will get Bloomberg elected too. What’s good for Donald’s goose, is good for Michael’s gander.


    Trump sure wants Bernie. Why would that be? Z, when I read your stuff, I skim it really, I pretend you’re Stephen Miller. Stephen, like Trump, is a big Bernie fan too.

  78. @Plenue

    Thanks for the info. I was, however, just kidding. I will need rots of ruck to acquire new friends, Japanese or not.

  79. Z


    You’re just here to cash a check from Mikey $B’s campaign. Your uncle or somebody you’re related to got you in, Mikey $B surely didn’t interview you or you wouldn’t have gotten the job, and now you’re on Mikey $B’s payroll and got your free cellphone and computer and tap away on your keyboard to nowhere. The only reason you ended up on this site is because Ian doesn’t throw people off. You’ve convinced absolutely nobody about anything here, which you know, but you keep pumping out posts anyway, got to feel that you earn that money somehow.

    Mikey $B’s shoeshine boy.



    Z, I’ve been reading Ian for years. A decade or more in fact. I like Ian. I respect his brilliant mind. I respect his open mind. I respect his moxy to speak truth to power and not be swayed & cajoled by insiders of which he knows many. I’m not on Bloomberg’s payroll. I cannot be on anyone’s payroll. Like Ian, I have my own mind and it cannot be compromised by money or adulation.


    Thank you, Bernie. It needed to be said. And I agree, I believe a significant number of them are not truly your supporters, but some are.

    Sanders, a progressive who bills himself as a champion of organized labor, did not acknowledge his own supporters’ alleged abusive behavior specifically and applied his call for an end to harassment to all campaigns’ backers, but said members of his movement must be “respectful.”

    “Harassment of all forms is unacceptable to me, and we urge supporters of all campaigns not to engage in bullying or ugly personal attacks,” he said in a statement.

    In an interview on “PBS NewsHour” on Thursday, Sanders added: “Anybody making personal attacks against anybody else in my name is not part of our movement. We don’t want them. And I’m not so sure, to be honest with you, that they are necessarily part of our movement.”

    You know who you are. I know who you are too.

  82. Willy

    450, You need a living wage, defended borders, and slavers in jail. That’s what real Rule of Law owned by the citizenry looks like. You build a wall and pay for it with taxes gained from that living wage. You gain that living wage by eliminating the power and influence of the slavers.

    The beauty of modern conservatism is that Rule of Law is easily bought by Freedom and Liberty. Since a living wage with open borders becomes a fantastic way to supply and demand wages downward, with the world full of the persecuted desperate to move to more peaceful places, and sociopathic slavers usually get rich that way, Rule of Law is easily perverted.

    But this supposed to be about Mini Mike’s ability to actually serve the people voting for him, isn’t it?


    But this supposed to be about Mini Mike’s ability to actually serve the people voting for him, isn’t it?

    Nope, it’s about policy. Bloomberg’s versus Trump’s. Let’s start with climate change. What is Trump’s policy on climate change? That’s a rather important topic at this venue and a rather important topic to progressives and liberals in general.

    Using your “it’s not black & white” logic and admonition, despite both Trump & Bloomberg being oligarchs, there are substantial differences between the two. Their assessment of climate disruption and their consequential policies related to it.

    Trump doesn’t have a policy in regard to climate disruption except to deny it. Bloomberg’s assessment of and policies related to climate disruption are much more aligned with progressives and liberals and he has in fact done much more than any whore politician on the existential threat that is climate disruption. He’s given a fortune to the cause. How much has Trump donated to the cause? Trump has donated less than zero to the cause when you consider his denial of climate disruption and his stymying of any policy initiatives related to it to include the evisceration of the EPA.

    Climate disruption is increasingly contributing to mass migrations to include migrations from Latin America. One way to mitigate that and stem the flow is to address climate disruption and implement policies that approach net zero CO2 emissions. That’s Bloomberg’s policy and that policy is not only good for the environment, but it’s good for addressing the worse of effects of uncontrolled immigration as well.

  84. Willy

    I don’t have time today to itemize all the differences between Trump, Bloomberg and Sanders. I’d want to lay out every policy, then every way said policy positions were more than just talk.

    Bloomberg has too much in common with Clinton/Obama. His commercials stress a bit too much his masterful success after his being fired. In my experience people like that tend to have less respect for the 99.9% of the rest of us who are “losers” than they should.

    Since everybody, even you and I and Ian and bruce wilder and all the rest, tend to project whatever it is that works for us, or doesn’t work for us, onto the rest of the world, I’m unconvinced that Bloomberg can “feel” the experiences of the stressed out common worker. It’s very hard for humans to step outside themselves and be completely objective.

  85. different clue

    @S Brennan,

    When you say . . . “All the Bernie folks applauded when subterfuge was used against other candidates…a little late to complain.” . . . could you offer some clickable links to actual examples of “Bernie folks applauding when subterfuge was used against other candidates” ?

    If you have any actual links to actual evidence to offer on that score, I will read the evidence findable at those links. Because while I never heard of such a thing myself, it is true that I don’t get out much, and all kinds of such things could have been happening all around me.

    So any actual cases you could provide actual evidence of on that score would be useful and welcome.

  86. bruce wilder

    In politics as in so much of life, at best you get what you pay for, one way or another.

    Mini-Mike may well buy the Democratic Party, outbidding Sanders’ supporters.

    If he wins, it will be Mike’s government, not mine.

  87. nihil obstet

    My old-line Democratic establishment drinking group has been interesting this week, and not in a good way. They report a huge shift from Biden to Bloomberg. On its own, that’s kind of like a shift from wanting rat poison to arsenic. I had thought that support for Biden was simply low information — he’s been an establishment Democrat high in the hierarchy for years, and they assume that means he supports Democratic ideals (minimum, New Deal). However, the fast jump to Bloomberg means something I can’t quite figure out. When I went through “he ran stop and frisk specifically targeting young black males, he supports redlining, he thinks banks shouldn’t be regulated, he opposes minimum wage, and he’s on ad-length videos taking all these positions”, the response was “he’s changed. He doesn’t believe in any of that any more.”

    This is the same willful refusal to believe their own eyes and ears that we saw with Obama and Trump followers. I guess it’s the power of aspirational self-identification — “I’m like the billionaire with manners and a bribery technique that poses as generosity instead of the millionaire who’s crass and vulgar and obviously corrupt.”

    It was nice to see that Buttigieg seems to have dropped off the swoon list of many.

    There are still some who are utterly appalled by Bloomberg. Some of them, however, still think that someone like Bloomberg may be popular enough to help the down-ticket races.

    Well, my socialist book group tomorrow morning should cheer me up.

  88. Plenue

    Arguing over which oligarch has the best climate plan (or which one even has a plan at all) is utterly pointless at this stage. We aren’t heading for a cliff; we’re already over the cliff. At least two degrees of warming is already baked into the system, and the positive feedback loops have already started. No one’s plan, and that includes Sanders Green New Deal, is going to alter that reality. We should have been putting a GND into action thirty years ago. And even that probably wouldn’t have been enough, because modern civilization is utterly dependent on fossil fuels for a lot more than just energy generation. I don’t think I’ve even seen much discussion of how to do industrial farming or make plastic without oil.

    We’re already looking at the end of globalized industrial civilization, at a minimum.

    Now putting all that aside, if Bloomberg manages to get the nomination, much less to win, then democracy in the US will be well and truly dead. He will have demonstrated it is possible for a rich person to simply self-fund their way to power, bribing where needed and if ads don’t seem to be working, just buy more ads.

    I’m hoping that Bloomberg will go the way of Biden (or Steyer), and that when it comes to his first real-world test his supposed support proves a mirage.


    I don’t have time today to itemize all the differences between Trump, Bloomberg and Sanders.

    I’m not asking you to do that. We’re talking about the difference between Trump and Bloomberg as it relates to the environment. Trump’s policy is obviously to destroy the environment at an ever increasing pace. He is a climate disruption denier. He has turned the EPA into an entirely feckless organization directed by insiders who are affiliated with the very organizations that are despoiling the environment unchecked at this point. Bloomberg’s policy is to revamp the EPA. His plan is to shutter the remaining coal power plants and to end fracking and shutter the remaining gas power plants. His substantial giving thus far, his bankrolling of the Sierra Club initiative, has helped to shutter half the coal power plants in this America thus far. This is far more than any other oligarch is doing let alone the lobbyist-controlled political class. Think of how much more he can do as president in this regard.

    Trump calls Bloomberg Mini Mike (by this logic Vlad is Puny Putin by the way) but when it comes to climate change, Bloomberg is Paul Bunyan to Trump’s Honey I Shrunk The Donald.

    When it comes to climate change, however, Bloomberg’s record is almost entirely positive. He was instrumental in standing up and funding the Sierra Club’s Beyond Coal campaign, which has been one of the most ruthlessly effective activist campaigns of my lifetime. Recently, the Associated Press, in a “fact check,” rebutted the notion that Bloomberg is single-handedly responsible for all recent coal-plant closures — and it’s true, market forces helped, as did government policy. But everyone who has paid attention to the power sector knows that the kind of activist pressure he has supported frequently makes the difference at the margin.

    More recently, Bloomberg pledged $500 million to an expanded Beyond Carbon campaign, which will shoot for a 100 percent clean-energy economy, taking on not only coal but also natural gas, the next key battle in US decarbonization.


    If he wins, it will be Mike’s government, not mine.

    You guys kill me. Really, you do. It was never your government unless you’re an oligarch and for all I know you may be one.

    I’ll take Mike’s government versus Donald’s government any day of the week. What we want, or some of us want who read here and/or comment here, is not attainable. That includes everything Bernie presents and more. I truly wish it was. But the peeps manning the so-called resistance/revolution are not made of the right stuff. It’s simply not there so at this point we have to take the best we can get considering our predicament.

  91. Willy

    We cant go back to neoliberalism because that road leads right back to Trump.

    We’ve had tastes of populist-forced government competency in the past. It worked. The best part of those days was that enough of government had to fight for the common mans share of ‘fertile ground’ that hope for the future was commonplace. The American Dream was real, and not just for illegal immigrants. Some nations are living it now, to some degree.

    Neolib Mike is no Teddy Roosevelt. He won’t deal with China or the surveillance state or the cynical uncertainty dominating common culture. He just stalls the inevitable falling down. Maybe the next Trump will be a covert China supplicant. Or Franco. How about Kim Il-sung, all super charming, alpha, competent and evil? Boy, won’t that be fun.

    450, some day when you fall down, or more accurately get knocked down, maybe you’ll be able to ‘feel’ us. Bernie is attainable because it’s been done before.

  92. bruce wilder

    If you are right that we are powerless,, we are powerless. Why fry your own brain, obsessing over which authoritarian Republican billionaire becomes President? That non-choice choice is, as you tell it, out of our hands.

    I can still choose not to legitimate the end of the republic by making it appear that I support either bastard or their political goals and methods. That is all you are advocating here: legitimating Bloomberg’s candidacy.

    Atrios of Eschaton summarized well the source of position: “Broken brains”


    Because I will not enable full-throated fascism directly. In this last leg of our existence, our only hope is to minimize suffering as long as we can and to the extent we can. Trump equals fascism and fascism means a brutal, bloody, terribly-suffering final act before civilization is no more. For posterity, if our fate as a species is ultimately determined as Plenue says and I’m not saying he’s wrong, I would like to see a win against fossil fuel. Bloomberg is committed to that win. Small consolation, but it’s all we have at this point. I’m not being misanthropic saying there will be no revolution. There may very well be a civil war, but no revolution. And, in fact, we need an evolution, not a revolution. We needed an evolution 12,000 years ago before this all took substantial, intractable root.

  94. different clue


    I have read that 90% of the oil used is burned for fuel. Only 10% of the oil used is made into chemicals including plastics. So delete oil from the energy portfolio of the world and oil use is reduced 90% right there. And then one could further shrink down that 10% by going back to the various oil-free materials we used before plastics existed.

    About industrial farming with less oil and gas . . . there are several thousand-acre-or-more farmers who have eliminated oil-and-gas based chemicals from their farming operations. There are so few of them that their names can all be known. But they exist. Gabe Brown, Garry Zimmer, Klaas and Mary Howell Martens come to immediate mind. There are others.

    Once oil use has been reduced to only the fuel for the machinery, then the question arises . . . how much land would be required to grow veggie-diesel oil to power the machinery? If it took an acre to grow enough veggie-diesel oil to plow/plant/cultivate/harvest/etc. an acre, then the excercise is pointless. But if it took one acre to grow enough veggie-diesel oil to machinify a hundred acres of land, then the excercise is very pointful indeed.

    And of course agriculture might be de-industrialized and re-artisanised in any event, creating much more scope for hand labor, horse labor, ox labor, etc.

    Of course that only addresses the agriculture questions you raise, but it shows that some questions may have answers.

  95. different clue

    @ bruce wilder,

    The SanderBackers don’t want to buy the Democratic Party. They want to conquer it. They aren’t going to try bidding against Bloomberg to buy it. They can’t compete in that marketplace and they won’t try.

    They will try to conquer the Party before the Party is able to sell itself to Bloomberg. If the SanderBackers can conquer the Party, they will not sell it to Bloomberg.

    If Bloomberg can buy the DemParty from the current owners before the Sanderists can conquer it from the current owners, then they will just start trying to conquer it from the Bloombergists. If they realize that they will never conquer the Party from the Bloombergists, then they will try to undermine it and destroy it over time and grow their own Real Democrat Party to take its place.

  96. Plenue

    What makes you think Bloomberg doesn’t also equal fascism? A somewhat kinder, more enlightened fascism perhaps, but he’s a scumbag oligarch all the same.

  97. Willy

    “Democracy is one person, one vote and a full discussion of the issues that affect us. Oligarchy is billionaires buying elections, voter suppression and a concentrated corporate media determining what we see, hear and read.”

    (Quote best read out loud with a heavy Brooklyn accent and a cranky old mans “Get off my lawn!” attitude)

  98. Z

    Bruce Wilder:

    If you are right that we are powerless,, we are powerless. Why fry your own brain, obsessing over which authoritarian Republican billionaire becomes President?

    Because she’s getting paid by Mikey $B!


  99. Z


    Because I will not enable full-throated fascism directly. In this last leg of our existence, our only hope is to minimize suffering as long as we can and to the extent we can.

    How inspiring and brave of you to reach so deep during these last flickers of human existence to spill tens of thousands of words a day fighting for the presidential prospects of a billionaire who has you on his payroll.

    Fight on, my friend. Fight on!


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