The horizon is not so far as we can see, but as far as we can imagine

What Is Our Plan C if Sanctions and the Guerilla Trap Don’t Take Out Russia?

First: To my knowledge, sanctions have never lead to regime change. They didn’t in Iran, Iraq, Venezuela, Libya, or anywhere else — not even North Korea and Cuba, which are still under some seriously savage sanctions.

Second: The targeted country’s leadership can still have pretty much whatever they want, it’s the population which suffers.

Third: While, in most ways, Russia is weaker than the USSR, it has a food surplus, while the Soviets always struggled. You can’t starve them out. It also has a fairly decent medical industry and access to Chinese and Indian medicines. Also, if sanctions continue, they will break our IP.

Fourth: The USSR didn’t have the largest industrial nation in the world as its ally (that would be China, not the US).

Fifth: China and Russia are synergistic. What China needs (food (desperately), oil, and minerals), Russia has. What Russia needs (consumer goods, medium to high-ish tech), China has. Plus, for China, having Russia as an ally mitigates the whole “US Navy cutting off supplies at the Straits of Hormuz” situation that every Chinese leader since Deng has stayed up nights worrying about.

Sixth: The logical response for Russia and China is to link their payments systems and to create an alternate monetary system. Because the West has repeatedly stolen billions of dollars from countries foolish enough to keep them on reserve in the West and then get on the West’s bad side, a lot of nations will move over to that system. Honestly, I’d trust China more than I would trust US not to steal my reserves, at this point.

Nobody seems to be thinking this forward. If sanctions don’t take out Russia and force it to collapse and/or have a government we like, what are we going to do next?

And as sanctions have never taken out a government, what’s our plan? Right now, it seems like the only alternative is to have a long guerilla war in Ukraine and bleed Russia dry. This strategy might work, though the human cost will be monstrous. (But then, why would the West care? We’re fighting to the last Ukrainian, after all.)

But if sanctions don’t work, and the guerilla trap doesn’t, what’s our Plan C? It’s particularly important because these sanctions are going to do a lot of damage to ourselves including, very likely, destroying the IP system that makes our rich so rich. (I, personally, look forward to Russia, and later China, breaking our IP system, but I don’t imagine high tech firms and/or Disney are as thrilled.)

Again, what’s our Plan C?



Finally, Proof of the Obvious About Schools & Masks


Open Thread


  1. Soichiro Rocks

    An equally important question is, what will Putin do if sanctions take their toll and he feels his power is in peril both from outside Russia and inside Russia? Does he capitulate to the West? Does he capitulate to internal forces? Does he double down again and again and again and resort to ever more desperate and deplorable measures? Does he implement the Samson Option when all else has failed?

    I find it rather telling the West continually is offering him so-called “off ramps” that will allow him to save some face. Why would the West do this? Because Putin makes a great foil for the West. Cold Wars and Wars On Terror are good for business, don’t you know? If you get rid of Putin and replace him with someone who capitulates to the West and gets rid of Russia’s nukes, there is no longer any need for NATO let alone NATO expansion.

  2. At a guess, Plan C is threaten – and maybe get – WW III.

  3. Z

    Plan C: More of Plan A (more sanctions) and Plan B (provide more weapons to the Ukrainian resistance).

    Again, I believe that the Europeans will bring about an end to this madness. They are not going to stand for paying so much more for gas and food so that the U.S. can play its power games with Russia.

    Italian truck drivers are already organizing a strike to halt deliveries. Expect these types of movements to gain force across Europe. There will eventually be large anti-U.S. protests across Europe that focus on their leaders’ servility to the U.S..

    Zelenskyy is a disgrace for not preventing this damage to Ukraine and its people by reaching a settlement that they can live with instead of sacrificing them so that he can be silly rich.


  4. Allen

    Ian, I’m having a hard time seeing how the Russian’s can really lose here if the goal is stop nato and the western capitalist interests it represents (from western defense contractors to those who want western ownership of the mineral wealth, etc). A neutral Ukraine would be best but with each passing day that becomes less likely increasing the likelihood of the Russians coming to the view that rendering Ukraine ungovernable is the easiest, best solution. No one wants an insurgency on their border but there’s no other nation on the planet with more experience with it…

  5. edwin

    I’m going to be a bit of a contrarian. I’m too upset right now to try and dig up the links, but I remember something about the US being concerned about Russian actions and giving their information to China, who immediately gave it to the Russians. The US does not understand the world they live in. They have created their own fantasy world.

    Looking at some of the most brutal proposed legislation I have seen that they wish to imposed on the population at large ht Missouri – to criminalize abortion in case of ectopic pregnancy (ie: death by torture) for having a medical condition – I don’t think that the people in charge even know enough to provide sensible policy for that fantasy world. They don’t know or care what they are doing.

    I don’t think that the US really has plan A or plan B, let alone a plan C. I think they are winging it – a battle of who can be more tough and more extreme and no one is truly in charge.

  6. Feral Finster

    @Soichiro Rocks:

    What off-ramps? Russia had made concrete diplomatic proposals several times in the recent past, and the United States rejected all of them out of hand.

  7. Soichero Rocks

    First of all, Feral, Russia is Putin so you may as well just say Putin and his entourage made proposals versus Russia proper. They were not concrete and instead were unrealistic demands. Two weeks ago let alone a year is now like decades ago. Everything has changed. Putin’s invasion of Ukraine is truly apocalyptic in that it is world-shattering, especially his world. He will not recover from this. He is now in no position to bargain at all and yet the West continues to hold out hope that he will come to the table reasonably and objectively. Why does the West eternally offer him the olive branch when they did no such thing for browner dictators and yellower dictators and black dictators they have deposed and overthrown?

    On that note, I have to imagine it’s rather refreshing for black, brown, yellow and red humans to see white humans with their militaries bombing and shooting and killing each other for a change. “Take a load off Fanny.”

  8. Dan Lynch

    Plan? Ha ha ha.

    First, the West is run by psychopaths. They don’t have plans for climate change or Covid because they don’t care if people die or even if there is a mass extinction, just as long as they’re king of the hill in the meantime. Psychopaths are all about power.

    Unfortunately, the rise of Russia and China means that Western psychopaths can no be king of the hill over the entire globe, and that makes Western psychopaths sad. Boo-hoo. To minimize their sadness, they’re drawing lines in the sand to force Europe, Australia, and of course Canada to stay in the U.S. circle. If the psychopaths can’t rule over the entire world, at least they can rule over the Anglos and the Euro-trash, because what’s the point of being a psychopath if you don’t have anyone to rule over?

    As in a religious cult, members of the U.S. psychopath cult are not allowed to associate with non-cult members. You Canadians must not get any ideas about being friends with Russia or China, OK? Make sure you ban Russian media, OK? You’ll be bombarded with endless stories of atrocities allegedly committed by Russia, and Facebook will even allow you to make death threats against Russsia because hate is OK when Western psychopaths do it. Remember children, Russia is a Mafia state that bombs maternity wards — trust us!

    So that’s the plan — that if the U.S. can’t control the entire world, it’ll at least maintain an iron grip on its remaining cult members. If even that becomes untenable, then line up to drink the special koolaid.

  9. Veronica

    Idk about ww3. Military officials on both sides know that American military leaders can survive nuclear attacks in dumbs (deep underground military bases), while Russians can’t. They also know Americans don’t care about civilian losses.

    I don’t think hypersonics change the calculus much — the smart minds have been planning on warheads getting thru on cargo ships for years.

    I really wonder about ‘why now’ and I don’t have an answer that makes a ton of sense….

  10. ptb

    Plan C is sanction China, confiscate their dollars, and hope for the best (consumer goods? machine parts? electronics? who needs ’em!). There may be part of the business constituency opposed to this, but they might not hold out after the next Trump equivalent gets elected.

    Plan D is destabilize as much of the rest-of-the-world as possible, to prevent a neutral bloc from forming, and “convince the world” that China can’t “keep them safe” – you know, in case there should be an unforeseen incident. This might come first.

    If they value their empire, they’re gonna try to do both, and relatively soon. Before China uses their now distinctly perishable stash of greenbacks to buy out the dollar debt of partner countries, and refi them in Yuan at a lower rate.

  11. Hickory

    Dumbs is a good name of it. Once food ran out they’d be done – nuclear winter would mean nothing left above ground.

  12. Lex

    I don’t know that I’d call what the US has done so far a “plan” in any traditional sense of the word. We seem to be making things up on the fly and hoping that they might work. I mean unless the “plan” is chaos and global destabilization. There will be potent weapons floating around the black market for decades, regardless of what happens in Ukraine. That indicates there was no plan, remember how we had to try and buy back stingers when we invaded Afghanistan?

    @soichiro, dude just stop. You clearly have zero understanding of Russia or its politics except what you’ve been spoon fed by western media. I’d offer some references but I know it’s pointless. Support for the military operation is running at 70%+ in Russia at the moment and that includes many Russians who personally hate Putin. You are clearly unaware of the 2M+ Ukrainian refugees that have gone to Russia since 2014 when the “liberal” and “democratic” government we’re supporting banned the Russian language, shut down media and jailed opposition political parties.

  13. someofparts

    Cracks in the plan:

    Why now was explained by Putin the the long speech he gave before the hostilities commenced. Before WWII Russia waited too long to oppose the original Nazis and it cost them dearly in the loss of over twenty million lives. In his speech he specifically said that it would be wrong, given that history, to wait too long too push back against Nazis at their border this time.

    Since they have been in Ukraine they have found evidence that Ukraine was making atomic dirty bombs and had facilities all over the country making biological weapons. Even before they did go in, they saw that Ukraine was gathering military forces at their border.

    Those are just a few of the reasons they went in. There are many others.

    Feral Finster – Be careful. I think Soichero Rocks may be a troll. He seems determined to be inflammatory and eager to encourage argument in the community. These days when the internet platforms are eager to de-platform sites that do not get in line with official views, a person like SR might be getting paid to come to places like this and encourage us to say things that will get Ian’s site taken down. I have seen him in comments at Naked Capitalism trying to do the same thing.

  14. Willy

    I’d target psychopaths, malignant narcissists, machiavellians, sociopathic capos… in any position of unchecked power, after proving who they be using scientific methods. But that’s plan C Phase 2.

    I’m afraid that Plan C Phase 1 (given that psychopaths, malignant narcissists, machiavellians, and sociopathic capos pretty much run things, east or west, thanks to the ignorance of the rest of us) is going to have to involve playing the long game yet again.

    This involves a new cold war, waiting for Ukrainians to wear down the Russians (as the military scientists at outfits like the Rand Corporation predict) until they (citizenry or more moderate power players) chip away at the bastions of power surrounding Putin and his mafiosi cronies, enough to topple and try and revise their government yet again.

    Be nice if for our part, we’ve done the same on our end.

  15. different clue

    @ Soichero Rocks,

    ” Why does the West eternally offer him the olive branch when they did no such thing for browner dictators and yellower dictators and black dictators they have deposed and overthrown? ”

    Why? Because Putin controls several thousand A bombs and H bombs and the means to deliver them. That’s why.

    I used to joke that famine in Bangladesh is Bangladesh’s problem, but famine in India is a world problem, because India has enough A bombs to make it a world problem.

  16. different clue

    Plan C? There is only Plan B 2.0, Plan B 3.0, Plan B 4.0, etc. The Ukrainians will insurge as best they can with or without Western assistance. Western assistance may help them insurge better longer.

    A decades-long stabilized Ukraine insurgency will help the Western Authorities impose new levels of Cold War 2.0 social discipline and control against their own internal subjects. If the internal subjects wish to prevent or reverse that, they will have to find a way to tear down and destroy their own Ruling Authorities.

    Maybe by tearing down and destroying from within the economic system which keeps the Ruling Authorities rich and safe and happy.

  17. Trinity

    “I really wonder about ‘why now'”.

    My guess, and it’s only a guess, is that if they are to take over the entire world, they need more money. And minerals. And power over. And there is less and less money to be extracted from the poorest among us, and fewer minerals to steal, and a little too much push back on the “power over” thing.

    Also, some of us are onto them. This means they are less able to keep fooling us into handing over our money. And the people are starting to make “outrageous” demands. Their narratives here in the America’s (and now especially Europe) are failing (at least for the thoughtful), and their fantasy world is being questioned by more than just climate scientists.

    They have a tendency to scapegoat and malign/punish anyone who threatens their fantasy narrative (e.g., the lawyer on house arrest for three years). Probably their hope is that Russia will become that for them, will serve as an example of what “not to do”, be punished and “cast out” (and it’s forever, btw, unless you buy into the fantasy and pay fealty to their “clear” superiority). This is necessary so other nations will be served the appropriate warning and fall in line with the insane power agenda. And then they will get busy divvying up the Russian spoils.

    One thing I haven’t seen yet (although I don’t read or watch the news) is not only Russia’s resources, but also it’s strategic location in terms of climate change in an increasingly warmer world, and especially the opening of the arctic for year round shipping and trade. Wasn’t it Hillary an election or two ago proclaiming how wonderful it will be when all the pesky ice is finally gone?

  18. someofparts

    Here’s another crack in the plan. This one seems to be in the foundation. It will be made much worse when Republicans win back control of Congress and the White House.

  19. Ken Cox

    “shut down media and jailed opposition political parties. ”

    Well now, that certainly sounds familiar. I wonder where I’ve heard it before.

    It appears to me that more than a few of the very fine folk commenting on this site have themselves been subject to some serious spoon feeding.

  20. VietnamVet

    The western rich and powerful who dismantled democratic government are at risk for the first time since WWI and WWII. Russia’s invasion of Ukraine has demolished European Security; there is none. NATO and its nuclear weapons failed to deter Russia. The Kremlin knows that Joe Biden will not use nuclear weapons to stop it. He is not a “mad man” like Dick Nixon. He is senile; led around up by profiteers.

    One future prediction rings true. The rich will do anything and everything to prevent China and Russia from setting up an alternative commodity based (gold +) monetary system and relegating the Eurodollar to the de-industrialized half of the world. If a nuclear war is avoided, for the rest of the not so cold war 2.0, western riff-raff intentional will suffer war propaganda, hunger, energy shortages, illness, and shortened lives to keep the wealthy rich. Until inevitably, there will be no “masters of the universe” left on the finite polluted barely habitable earth.

  21. bruce wilder

    Who needs a plan when you have a good story?

    The New Republic published a Ukraine issue last week. One article with various clickworthy titles got a fair bit of attention: The American Pundits Who Can’t Resist “Westsplaining” Ukraine by two young Polish academics with North America sprinkled thru their CVs complained about realist analyses by actual Americans. Shouldn’t Poland or Estonia or Ukraine be free to choose its alliances?

    I have seen variations on this argument quite frequently as a refutation of the Mearsheimer “realist” view. It is morally wrong for the statespersons of Great Powers to dispose of the interests of Eastern European peoples and states as if they are mere pawns. blah blah It is such rotten b.s. But it is how lots of people think. The Russian demand for Ukrainian neutrality could not be conceded, because . . . moral principle, national sovereignty, yada yada.

    Notice there is no “plan” in this argument. Plan A, B, C . . . it is a conception without plans — very neoliberal in its premise.

    Meanwhile, back in reality land, U.S. foreign policy is made by the likes of Victoria Nuland, vindicating the aspirations of her grandparents and before, while enjoying a diplomatic-political career making it rain for arms manufacturers. She has plans within plans, no doubt. None of which is likely to be reported in the New Republic or New York Times.

  22. different clue

    @Soichero Rocks,

    As I think about the wording of your question, the West hasn’t spent the last 20 years offering Russia an olive branch. The West spent the last 20 years waving an olive club at Russia anyway.

  23. different clue


    If Hillary really said it will be good when the Arctic Ice is gone, she sure is dumm. She should buy land in Florida. In fact, the whole Clinton family should buy land in Florida.

  24. Ché Pasa

    Plan? There’s a plan?

    Well, yeah. I think there is. What’s going on now was anticipated and expected in 2014, but for whatever reason (I’ll let Kremlinologists figure it out) Putin held back from the invasion that was prepped for by the horrid Nuland person, the Kagans and pretty much the entire Obama administration.

    They were prepared to fight to the last Ukranian, but Russia didn’t invade. They seized Crimea — where they already were — and helped Donetsk and Luhansk fend off the ‘nazis.’

    Beyond that, not much, not enough to respond.

    2017 – 2021 was a reprieve, but the plan for the Ukraine Thing, such as it is, was still in place just waiting for a trigger. Constant goading of the Russian bear after Biden’s election was sufficient.

    And the ghouls have the blood and fire they long for. They are still prepared to fight to the last Ukrainian, to see the whole country flattened, many more millions of refugees, the world turned upside down, and under some scenarios, nuclear holocaust.

    We shouldn’t fool ourselves. These ghouls are willing and able to go all the way. The nuke scares don’t scare them. I think some of them would welcome a nuclear free for all. Why not? They’ll be safe. Or think they will.

    Out here in the wilderness, the nervousness is palpable. Not panic, not yet, but folks are on edge. “What’s coming tomorrow? Will gas be $5? Diesel already is. Why are those V-22 Ospreys flying over? And did you hear that B-52 yesterday? Damn. Shit’s getting real.”


    And it’s tough for some of the “patriots” — you know the ones who fly the stars and bars or have the stars and stripes flying (upside down) from their pick-ups — because Russia and Putin were lodestones for the Xtristo white rightist exhibitionists. But if anything, the fascists and nazis in Ukraine were more like kinfolk. And they constitute the primary Ukrainian fighting force. So, whose side are the local “patriots” supposed to be on? Cheering for Russia? Some do. Cheering for Ukraine? Well, maybe.

    The ghouls have lots of contingency plans. They’ll watch and wait for now. See how things go, fully expecting to “lose” Ukraine, but what if they don’t? Then they expect to rip Russia to shreds, dance on the pelt and march on to Beijing.

    When they show you who they are, believe them.

  25. someofparts

    Here’s plan C –

  26. Astrid

    Yeah, agree with Willy that there was never a plan B. Just repeat and keep failing upward until they die, one way or another.

    The “smart ones” have bolt holes and underground bunkers. Basically just mega rich preppers. That’s the best that their lizard brains can come up with.

  27. Soichiro Rocks

    Come on guys and gals, you can do better than this. I know you can. I know you’re capable of being critical of Russia, Ukraine and the West at the same time rather than picking sides and making excuses. Putin and his oligarchs are bad. The West and its oligarchs are bad. Ukraine and its oligarchs are bad. If you are a decent person, a person who can think critically independently and objectively, if you’re a moral principled person, then you have no pony in this fight except to defend, at least on virtual paper, the common man and woman and child on the street just getting by and trying to survive in this do-eat-dog world. None of the sh*tbirds mentioned above have the interests of the common man and woman and child in the street in mind. None of them. Not Putin. Not the Western elite and their political and media whores and certainly not the Ukrainian oligarchs and their political and media whores.

    The West’s meddling in Ukraine is sh*tty and it’s wrong. It deserves condemnation and harsh criticism. So too does Putin’s actions in regard to Ukraine, especially this despicable invasion.

    Why must your stance be a reaction to the reaction of the West? It’s silly. Your bias is palpable. You have been told this many times and yet you persist. The enemy of your enemy is not your friend. Oligarchs of whatever stripe are scum and no, some are not better than others. There is no nuance when it comes to oligarchs and oligarchy.

    Why did Putin invade Ukraine now versus when Trump was president? Two reasons.

    1. Trump was already giving Putin what he wanted. Trump was helping to destroy America by tearing it apart and factionalizing it. He’s still doing that in fact and Trump was diminishing NATO and its influence. Certainly under Trump NATO was in no position to expand and in fact was in peril of contracting.

    2. Trump is an unpredictable, narcissistic wild man and Putin knows this about him. Putin couldn’t be sure what Trump’s reaction to a Russian invasion of Ukraine would be. There was a possibility Trump would engage Russia directly and WWIII would commence. Putin did not want to risk it.

    The second reason is actually rather ironic and telling. Those who defend Putin also defend Trump. Imagine that. The defenders of Trump and Putin in the West continually opine that the Western oligarchs want WWIII and yet it is their own man, Trump, who was and is the most likely to bring it about. The West has shown considerable constraint with Biden at the helm in confronting Putin and Russia directly. How else do you account for their refusal to implement a No Fly Zone and their poo pooing Poland’s plan for the transfer of aircraft to Ukraine?

  28. Astrid

    I’m leaving this here since it touches on both COVID and Ukraine lightly.

    We went to a concert in DC on Thursday (mask and vaccination mandatory, minimal eating and drinking options, plus DC area has low incidence of COVID right now) and hung out with our only actual socialist friend (we do have a number of liberal friends who think they’re socialists), in uber trendy parts of DC (DC also has entire neighborhoods that went from dangerous to walk through to unaffordable within a span of 5 years). Listening to a man perform a single 45 minute song, with rather cathartic noise interludes, about being young in 1997 and 2001, reminded me that my husband aged really well. Yeah, that’s what I concluded from this experience. All our worldly possessions, intellectual and ethical pretending, fraying connections with friends and colleagues and family, don’t mean much. He’s all I got.

    Things in DC feel…normal. Driving seems if anything, a tad less dangerous than usual. Everyone is wearing masks, even 30-50 percent outdoors. Sit-down restaurants area bit quieter than usual but mostly still hanging on. Trader Joe’s was well stocked, perhaps slightly busier than the typical Thursday afternoons but not bad at all. Blood oranges were in season and I bought two grocery bags full. They convert to a beautiful marmalade.

    Two of our old restaurant favorites (both perennial occupants of DC “best of” lists) have successfully coverted to takeouts only and if the world continues, I hope they will continue to offer their meticulous packed takeouts that came in around $70 per person after tax and tip.

    Many of my coworkers are DC based and everyone seems to be avoiding talking about Ukraine, even though our jobs may be substantially impacted by the sanctions and supply chain disruptions. Only direct mention of Ukraine came from a co-worker who felt the government should be sending “all the wasted money to Ukraine, because they actually need it.”. I kept my mouth shut.

  29. GlassHammer

    Plan C: Make peace in less than ideal circumstances with less than ideal leverage, declare victory, and move on.

    A bad peace is always an option.

  30. Trinity

    Here’s one about Hillary and the arctic, from 2012:

    In fairness, she broke with Obama on drilling there. At least, that’s what she said. She wasn’t elected, as we know. Who knows what she would have done if she had been elected, where her breaking her campaign promises are at the top of my list.

    In general about the area:

    VV, thanks for this: “[Biden] is senile; led around by profiteers.”

    I thought I was having a break with reality, reading articles (elsewhere) saying “Biden says this, Biden did that, etc.” Now we know why he was chosen … he is completely malleable.

  31. Mark Level

    What Dan Lynch said, alongside Edwin, Che Pasa, etc. The ‘Murican elites are incredibly arrogant, brain-dead and live in a fantasyland which is beyond the bizarroworld mush of other cult leaders like, e.g. Lyndon Larouche back in the day. And in fairness, Larouche was right about the British Empire and drug trafficking, the “West’s” leadership never sticks even one toe into the “reality-based” Universe at all!! They might as well be reading bird entrails as to their “decision making” model. As I feel the likelihood it may all come tumbling down more and more recently, of course a part of my psyche searches desperately for SOME hope. There are scraps. I see a couple posters noted that some mildly sane factions of the European leadership MAY realize that a years long conflagration in the Slavic hinterlands could not be good for them eventually? We know that racist anti-immigrant xenophobia is a widespread response to the economic depradations the ruling 0.1% put on local populations everywhere in the service of Baal’s Great Neoliberal Paradise . . . see Trumpism in the US, etc. The Ukranians got a temporary pass with all the Putin is Hitler/Satan etc. hysteria, “They are white and Western, we will welcome THEM as refugees,” but as inflation, fuel prices etc. spiral out of control that will only go so far– in reality not so far. I doubt that wiser heads will prevail in Europe but that is possibly the only floating plank to grab onto as the ships of state sink the world into permanent war, of all against all, with the Elites imagining they can survive in safe gated communities . . . The Late, Great Frank Zappa said it well 40+ years ago with Dumb All Over. The check is now due, the Chickens are here to roost!!

  32. Z

    “according to Forbes Magazine’s figures, the wealth of the US’ richest *three* oligarchs (Musk, Bezos and Gates) alone is $594bn, a total that is greater than the wealth of the richest *one hundred* Russian oligarchs combined at $558bn.”


  33. Feral Finster

    @Soichero Rocks: Ukraine not joining NATO is now “unrealistic”?

  34. Willy

    Evil is best discerned by how it treats the innocent. And yes, evil falls on a spectrum. Not that there’s anything more confusing about that.

  35. NR

    We need to normalize calling billionaires “oligarchs.”

  36. Soichiro Rocks

    Z? Like the Z on the Russian tanks in Ukraine? Telling.

    Feral, Ukraine was never going to part of NATO. Putin knows this. However, ironically once again, Putin’s invasion of Ukraine will help other adjacent countries to strongly consider joining NATO if they are not already members. For example, Finland is now considering it.

    If Putin’s goal is to diminish NATO and its influence, invading Ukraine is absolutely the worst thing he could have done to achieve that goal, therefore, I must conclude that despite what you and other Western apologists for Putin claim, Putin’s purpose in invading Ukraine is not to prevent Ukraine from joining NATO and don’t hand me that bull that the purpose is to rid Ukraine of “neoNazis.” That doesn’t hold water.

  37. different clue

    @Fellow Readers in General . . .

    What does the Z on Russian tanks actually stand for? When did that Z first appear on Russian tanks? Do you have a date of first appearance for the Z on Russian tanks? Can you tell us when the first Z was first spotted on the first Russian tank?

  38. Z

    Soichiro Rocks,

    I ain’t lyin’: I’m rootin’ for Putin and a quick ending to this on the terms that Russia has laid out. It looks like the best solution for the most people, by far, including the Ukrainians and the U.S. working class.


  39. different clue

    Well, here from off the internet is a little CNN news blat about what that Z on various Russian this and that means. If it is correct, now we know. If it is incorrect, hopefully someone will correct it here. I note a nasty little fake comparison to something in the CNN video. I bet some people can spot it.

  40. Feral Finster

    If Ukraine was never going to be part of NATO, then why could Ukraine and/or NATO not simply state so? Instead, Biden said something to the effect that “if I decide they’re in, then they’re in!”

    And I still haven’t heard of these amazing conciliatory offers the West was making to Russia.

    All I saw was “concede, or else!”

  41. Soredemos

    @Soichiro Rocks

    Ukraine was already defacto NATO. Filled will bases and training, suppliesd with weapons, host to bio research labs, well integrated with NATO command and control (which they’re still using to some effect).

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