Short answer, no, the evidence for the drugs working is exceptionally weak.
Longer answer, the drugs mess with the patient’s brains, and in the longer term they make their condition worse. The brain tries to neutralize the extra neurotransmitter, or to produce more of the suppressed neurotransmitter, but it eventually fails and burns out, creating what appears to be close to permanent damage (the brain is remarkably plastic so I hesitate to say it lasts forever, but Whitaker’s book, which I have read, includes evidence that even years don’t repair the damage.)
To put it simply, the psychiatric establishment has been corrupted by the pharmaceutical industry. Shrinks, as a group, remind me of economists, most of them are frauds who follow an orthodoxy they never examine properly, highly credentialed fools who do more damage than good, prescribing medicine based on theories which have never been shown to match reality, or work.
StewartM
To put it simply, the psychiatric establishment has been corrupted by the pharmaceutical industry. Shrinks, as a group, remind me of economists, most of them are frauds who follow an orthodoxy they never examine properly, highly credentialed fools who do more damage than good, prescribing medicine based on theories which have never been shown to match reality, or work.
The psychiatric establishment, and to a somewhat lesser extent, the psychological establishment, has always had problems. The biggest one being all-too-eager to embrace whatever Western middle-class values are at any particular time and enshrine these as being the “normal” for all of humankind, while placing in the DSM-IV behaviors that conflict with those. They’ve even “diseased” behaviors that are, ethnographically speaking, very common.
StewartM
someofparts
Might explain that American tendency to be easily distracted by the Shiny.
JustMe
There is also the issue of the great American health insurance system. Lots of insurance companies will pay for drugs, but not weekly counseling visits. As a result, there are now psychiatrists who do nothing but write prescriptions.
If having mental/emotional difficulties, I r
I really believe the best place to start is with a licensed social worker. They can’t prescribe meds. Although I also had some success for an anxiety disorder with cognitive behavioral therapy from a psychologist (also can’t prescribe meds).
I know people for whom the meds have been life savers, but they are very few. Most people benefitted far more from simple counseling services.
alyosha
It is much broader than just psychiatry. Pharma corrupts all of conventional medicine, so that expensive drug based “cures” are favored, over simpler, inexpensive, unpatentable supplements and treatments. Pharma then lobbies to outlaw the latter. Studies are underwritten by Pharma to get the desired results for their “cures”. And on and on.
If you’ll indulge me, I’d like to plug a great movie that’s just come out – Forks Over Knives. It follows the research of Caldwell Esselstyn MD, and Colin Campbell, author of The China Study. It’s essentially the health argument for a vegetarian diet, although other arguments – ecological and moral are aired. Esselstyn and Campbell argue with data that most chronic diseases could be halted or even reversed, were people simply to change their diet. They estimate that this change would eliminate 70-80% of our health care costs. Besides charts and data, the movie includes a number of people who’ve made this change, and shows their results, before and after. As you can imagine, this runs against not only medical orthodoxy, but also against the well positioned meat and dairy industries.
Back to psychiatry – there is a branch called orthomolecular medicine that, while aware of the drug approach, tries to use natural remedies and supplements to achieve mental health.
It’s the same story of a well-funded, profit-driven establishment that hypnotizes the mass of practitioners, versus a few brave independently thinking heroes who do their own research and achieve good or great results, depending on the field of endeavor.
Isn’t this the same model for all of America, on whatever topic you choose? There was some debate in the last thread about how Americans accept torture. The masses get hypnotized by the dominant paradigm, whatever it is, and only a few independent thinkers manage to break loose of this, and create their own movement. It’s probably the same in every country, it’s just that the American oligarchy is such a large target and has power well beyond its borders. Soon it will be transnational, in the sense that it will more clearly a global elite, and not so specifically American.
Morocco Bama
There’s an epidemic of diagnosis, and it’s rather convenient, because the more it’s diagnosed, the more drugs Big Pharma sells….and develops, and the more biilable hours the psychiatric/counseling profession racks up. For the most part, and there is some exception here, the psychiatric/pharma industry is yet another scam in our vaunted scam economy. So many Vampires, so little blood.
The following is the only worthwhile drug to be developed in quite some time.
http://www.hulu.com/watch/10234/saturday-night-live-annuale
Riverdaughter
This is wrong, Ian. Some drugs *do* help people. I worked with the guy who discovered effexor. He used to get mail from perfect strangers who tracked down who he was to thank him for saving their loves and returning them to mental stability. That doesnt mean that drugs, any drug, for any condition, doesnt hav side effects. And Not every drug is appropriate for every person. As you say, the brain is a complex thing and you are right that treatment sometimes involves manipulation of feedback loops. Sometimes it takes trial and error before the right ligand-receptor combination is found. But do not doubt for a minute that these medications don’t help people or are unnecessary. What your sources may not be telljng you that most shrinks understand now is that prolonged, untreated depression can leave the equivalent of a scar on the brain. That makes relapse much more likely. The brain is tissue like any other tissue. It gets wounded and sometimes needs first aid. That first aid, along with therapy, can make the difference between years of unnecessary Virginia Wolff type suffering and being able to function in the world everyday. It might not make a difference to you but I’m sure that it does to millions of children whose mothers suffer from postpartum depression or who have fathers whose mental state is making them suicidal.
Don’t do them a disservice by minimizing their pain or their treatment.
Riverdaughter
BTW, your readers may be relieved to know that Big Pharma isn’t into CNS drugs like they used to be. The blood brain barrier is a high hurdle to jump and the FDA approves very few drugs anymore. The cost benefit analysis makes discovering CNS drugs more and more unprofitable. And scientists cant do it for free, ya know. We have to eat too. Maybe you cant ditch the marketing and advertiser folks but research still costs money. A lot of it.
In a way, the current situation is worse for the mentally ill. It means that when the older generation of drugs go off patent, there won’t be anything new to replace them. So, the people with chronic, debilitating depression, bipolar disease and schizophrenia will be stuck with the very same drugs that have the negative side effects and not newer drugs that might have eliminated most of them.
Mental illness is not going away and some people aren’t faking it. What is going away is new and better options and that is not something to celebrate.
Bob Morris
I agree with what you say with one caveat. Someone close to me is bi-polar. At one point she went off her meds, ended up homeless and clinically psychotic, got back on the meds for keeps, and today, 7 years later, is happily married with a good job. The meds saved her life. Literally.
However, I was hyperactive (probably still am.) In today’s world if I were in 2nd grade they’d be giving me meds, and that’s just wrong.
chicago dyke
this is a fav topic of mine, and i completely agree with Ian. it’s a scam, no different than crack or meth or G or any other drugs that are pushed on people to make them temporarily feel ‘good’ but in the long term mess with their brains and make them junkies.
i’ve been working in caregiving for almost a decade now. one of my charges got hooked on a happy/sleeping pill. it was very scary, because he had never been a druggie before in his life and had no idea how much he was acting like one, when his Rx ran out at the end of the month and he had to go without it for a couple of days. he would get almost violent, in a physical way, and it was very difficult for me to care for him and control his behavior in those times.
i’ve done plenty of drugs. i’ve always avoided the ones i know i shouldn’t have (coke, meth, H) but i’ve done plenty of “club drugs” that are stereochemically similar to the SSRIs. and yes, they do permanently fuck with your brain chemistry. i stopped doing club drugs after one long summer of doing them on weekends, because i could feel how they were changing me. the high is nice, but the come-down? pure evil. i actually sort of worry about it, in the long term, because i know people who have slumped into serious issues with depression, mostly as a result of doing too much K or X or G. SSRI type drugs also fuck with your organs and make it harder to process toxins and maintain a healthy body weight.
i feel sorry for people in the sykiatry industry. i have several friends who are pros, PhDs, MSWs that sort of thing. and they are fucked from both ends. on the one hand, the only way they can make money is by being dealers; insurance companies won’t pay them unless the patient is “seriously in need” of medication. on the other hand, insurance companies also dictate how much ‘talk therapy’ they can give patients, and usually it’s no where near enough. it’s just wrong; my gf who just finished up her clinical training was complaining about this problem recently; she really wanted to have 24 sessions with this one patient she felt she was making progress with and who had serious problems, but in the end his insurance ran out and all she could do was medicate him. which she didn’t believe he really needed or wanted. but that’s what his insurance would pay for, and nothing more.
i once wrote a post about these drugs that was fairly detailed and had lots of links to sources about how happy pills are dangerous and the research (or lack thereof) into how the side effects are much more severe than is generally known. it was amazing… i have never been attacked so seriously by my readers as i was in that post. i pointed out that people in say, the Sudan or Iraq live in horrible conditions every day of their lives, and yet somehow manage to “make it” and raise families or go to work and otherwise function, despite pressures that would crush most american middle class types. “if they can make it without happy pills, you can too” is essentially what i said. and some of my favorite commenters and readers, whom i otherwise respect and regard, turned into complete, flaming haters, because they love their happy pills so very, very much. it scared me, and this was years ago. i think it’s even worse now. a friend of mine who has some experience consulting for Big Pharma once told me that ~30% of american women are on happy pills. think about that. i would love to see hard numbers about the percentage of children being medicated as well, for i don’t believe that there is really an “epidemic” of ‘attention deficit’ disorder. that one really chaps my ass; the notion that we should be drugging children for being too active and intelligent is pure evil, imho.
but don’t worry, Ian. drugs cost money. as money flows out of this country and the middle class is destroyed, this whole thingee of drugging them into oblivion and complacency will go away. poor people without insurance can’t afford fancy happy pills. america is headed for its Sober Up Moment, and it’s coming faster than most people realize.
Ian Welsh
Once you’re on the meds going off them is very dangerous.
The issue, though, is that you shouldn’t go on them in the first place in the vast majority of cases. They are no more effective than taking any placebo which has a side effect (ie. something which makes your face flush is just as effective.)
My prescription: hire someone to make you work out. Not clear that it helps more than a placebo, but being more fit makes you more healthy and it definitely helps mood, and even if it doesn’t do squat directly, at least you’re in shape aftewards.
(Maureen Dowd once said that in her circle of female friends, ie. very high end, everyone except her was on some sort of prescription psychoactive drugs.)
Ian Welsh
RD: I’m not seeing the evidence. I’m just not. I hear the anecdotes, but I know very well how drug dependency works and the clinical trials just don’t correlate with the anecdotes (and every time I write about this someone will tell me how they or someone they know was saved. Maybe. Maybe a placebo would have done it, too. And what are the side effects?)
It may be they work for some people (mostly by luck) but as best I can see they don’t work for most people and probably damage most people.
And, as a side effect, we have the war on (some) drugs, so that people can only legally self-medicate with drugs which can be patented.
Americans are fucked because their lives suck, they are fat and unhealthy, stuck in jobs they hate, stressed by the rat race and unable to get off it. The graph of mental illness rates is insane, it is a bubble. It is not credible.
Celsius 233
Doctors for the most part are trained as allopaths; not as naturopaths. Take 2 aspirin and call me in the morning.
While allopaths have their place, when it comes to mental health, they should be the course of last resort.
But we as a society don’t have the time for compassion, empathy, and the offer of a good ear to listen. The answer is the quick fix; demanded by both doctor and patient.
The answer of course is to change ones life-style, understand stress and it’s effects, good dietary practices, good friends to talk to, and a massive re-jigging of one’s value system.
I expect to see a steady but certain decline in life expectancy in the first world countries.
We modern humans are living well beyond our means, understanding, and intelligence as our societies become overly complex and crowded. Beyond that; our nervous systems were designed for small communities of roughly 100-150 people.
With out true friends and a sense of community, we don’t thrive…
BDBlue
I have no doubt that the pills are widely over-prescribed. I thought I had read studies somewhere (I’ll see if I can find them) that basically the pills work for at least some people with severe psychological problems, but for people who have milder problems – which is most people – they are essentially useless.
The people I know who have been helped by the pills tend to be people who had deep depression (the kind where you can’t get off the couch and where it’s almost impossible to make healthy choices because you see everything in such a warped way). They tended to use the pills for a relatively short period of time – to get over the immediate symptoms of depression long enough to make the life changes (exercise, change their circumstances by looking for a new job or dumping an abusive boyfriend) and then went off the pills. The other group are women with severe post-partum depression. That’s a very small group of people compared to the people I know who have been prescribed the pills or recommended them for really no good reason (many of whom either never took them or went off them almost immediately due to the side effect being worse than their condition).
I once had a friend who was miserable at a large law firm – because they treated everyone like crap – who was told by a partner that her unhappiness was her fault, she just needed to get the right pills like everyone else. Needless to say, she doesn’t work there anymore.
Treese
This subject is of great interest to me. I’ve been railing against antidepressants for years for many reasons, but I admit to never experiencing a severe depression, so I could be missing something. I also think the claim to benefits in some cases is valid. But overall I see huge problems in the collective psyche being neglected and probably exacerbated by medications. This in turn affects public mood and brings us all down, making it very difficult to solve problems.
The happy pressure in this country is killing any natural optimism the populace might have had. The evidence suggesting permanent damage is interesting, even though damage from so many factors is occurring in all our brains.
Now if we are diagnosed with cancer we’re supposed to be positive and happy, even grateful for the growth opportunity. And that is real insanity.
I think this is behind the druglike reaction to Obama and now the addiction to Facebook, texting, and all of the games that supposedly bring people some ersatz joy. The underlying loneliness, alienation, and depression seem to be coming closer to the surface and harder to suppress. As political oppression swings up, emotional depression is being unmasked. It seems like the drugs are losing power.
“Psychiatric establishment?” That in in itself is suspect. The dictatorial system that places individual brains into preordained patterns then drugs them according to the results is also insanity. Even the impulse to control another’s emotional and mental body is sickening even if they say it’s done for the purpose of “helping”. Fortunately, sometimes that happens by sheer luck probably. Mindfucking is always popular and always dangerous.
And speaking of small communities … Last week I came across a film called Asylum. It’s about a group of severely mentally disturbed people under the care of psychiatrist R.D. Laing in a house controlled by the crazies in cooperation with the professionals. He believed they could find a way to function if relieved of the pressure of fitting into the “normal” world. My first thought in the beginning of the doc was, “These people are the sane ones.” I think the very plasticity of the brain you mentioned, Ian, could be one way out of this trap of societal control and the world of mental aberration induced by drugs. All of our minds could use exercise in flexibility.
Here’s a link to the film.
The Madness of it All
Morocco Bama
our nervous systems were designed for small communities of roughly 100-150 people.
Exactly, Celsius, and Suspenders, the following link is for you, as well. It supports what Celsius has said, and what I said earlier about small, decentralized communities and diversity.
http://vimeo.com/23709632#
Morocco Bama
And speaking of small communities … Last week I came across a film called Asylum. It’s about a group of severely mentally disturbed people under the care of psychiatrist R.D. Laing in a house controlled by the crazies in cooperation with the professionals. He believed they could find a way to function if relieved of the pressure of fitting into the “normal” world. My first thought in the beginning of the doc was, “These people are the sane ones.” I think the very plasticity of the brain you mentioned, Ian, could be one way out of this trap of societal control and the world of mental aberration induced by drugs. All of our minds could use exercise in flexibility.
Here’s a link to the film.
The Madness of it All
Thanks for the suggestion, and may I suggest a book by Paulo Coelho that deals very much with the same issue, and you are left with the impression that the “insane” are the “sane” ones.
http://www.amazon.com/Veronika-Decides-Die-Paulo-Coelho/dp/0060955775
nihil obstet
Does anybody have information comparing mental illness diagnoses and drug prescriptions across countries? This would be very complex, since essentially you’re dealing with behavior modification. How is a child supposed to act in class? If the expected behavior is too oppressive, do you drug her or expel her or what? Are the suicides of Chinese workers diagnosed as mental illness (the Chinese supposedly have very low rates of mental illness, to the best of my extraordinarily limited knowledge)? Nonetheless, cross-cultural comparisons would appear to be informative.
someofparts
I’ve been surprised this year at the number of high-income people around me who have had hysterical melt-downs. I imagine the economy is the reason for most of it. Reading this thread though, I wonder if problems with meds might be behind some of it as well.
beowulf
I once had a friend who was miserable at a large law firm – because they treated everyone like crap – who was told by a partner that her unhappiness was her fault, she just needed to get the right pills like everyone else.
WOW! That law firm is crazy (so to speak). Under the Americans with Disabilities Act, if an employer knows or assumes, even wrongly, that someone has a mental disorder that impacts their ability to perform a major life function (say, working), they have to provide reasonable accommodation to the disabled employee or face a civil rights lawsuit. I assume Canadian civil rights laws are similar. I’ve advised friends to get a doctor’s note and take it to their HR dept and soon after, they’re working from home half-time or a have smaller workloads.
As for ineffectiveness of modern psychiatric drugs, see Edward Shorter’s awesome book “Before Prozac”. The drugs used 50 years ago were more effective than the drugs used now.
http://books.google.com/books?id=8VaYF8pIPxgC&lpg=PP3&pg=PA3#
Finally, I can’t recommend highly enough the work of Les Fehmi, a NJ psychologist who discovered a way to drop the mind into a meditative state almost instantly (see his book Open Focus). More importantly, his techniques to block chronic pain (in his book Dissolving Pain) are amazing– it really helped my aunt when she had a rough bout of chemo. What’s unique about pain control treatments is that a placebo that works is no placebo.
http://dissolvingpain.com/
Ian Welsh
Whittaker actually does cross-country comparisons.
Ian Welsh
And of course, the classic sociological studies where shrinks couldn’t tell when sane people were sent to them (though the inmates knew.)
Morocco Bama
Isn’t it amazing how they used to conduct lobotomies?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_0aNILW6ILk
Nowadays, no invasive procedure is necessary….all you need to do is go out and purchase a television…..you’ll even laugh through the procedure….in fact, you’ll like it so much, you’ll do it over and over again, 24/7. Now that’s progress!!
Jumpjet
I notice no mention was made in the article of that other great bogeyman of the modern American psyche: autism. Given that it has risen in prevalence almost as sharply as psychosis over the past twenty years, could it too be linked to unnecessary medication?
Morocco Bama
This is pertinent to the discussion for those of you who even read what I post and consider my links. It’s worth it…..it may even save your life, or the life of a loved one……so they can live to see the Apocalypse.
http://vimeo.com/24821365
Morocco Bama
I have a theory about Autism. It’s evolution. Autism is an adaptive response to the Digital Age. They can, and do, thrive in the virtual world, whilst being completely dysfunctional in the physical world. It’s where we’re heading as a species…..they’re ahead of the curve, and what is now a pariah, is a stepping stone to our evolutionary future, if that ark gets built fast enough.
http://thehumanodyssey.typepad.com/neurodiversity_the_book/2010/01/computer-firm-in-denmark-sees-autism-as-an-asset.html
http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=5488463
Petro
@Morocco:
Thom Hartmann would agree.
Petro
@Morocco:
I kind of take that back – while being a response to the digital (concrete jungle?) age, he takes it as a rejection of modernity, a stubborn emergence of hunter/gatherer sensibilities…
Jumpjet
I found this searching online, and it says a lot of what I was going to say on the subject of depression: http://www.philosophicalsociety.com/Archives/Philosophy%20And%20Depression.htm
Perhaps this is me being the consummate Liberal Arts student, but I think philosophy is overlooked in this day and age as a method of treating ills of the mind. I think the use of reason is under-appreciated or forgotten altogether. I do not have depression myself, but I must wonder if it wouldn’t be helpful to begin treating it by asking questions of it. Why am I depressed? Perhaps the question has no definite answer, but that doesn’t make the asking any less valuable an exercise. It is in reasoning and asking questions that we come to understand the world, and in these acts we are at our most human.
Celsius 233
Jumpjet PERMALINK
June 14, 2011
Perhaps this is me being the consummate Liberal Arts student, but I think philosophy is overlooked in this day and age as a method of treating ills of the mind.
==============================
Interesting you should mention that; I agree.
I have recently been getting back into studying the Dhamma (Buddha’s teaching) for my own mental health.
Unfortunately I’m hearing Buddhism more and more referred to as a religion; which it most certainly is not, by any measure. But it is a philosophy that can and does deal with the very real human condition.
It isn’t my purpose to proselytize for Buddhism, but rather to point out there are alternatives to allopathic practices.
On a side note; there seems to be an increase in mental health issues here in Asia as it adopts a more western value system: well done America and globalization.
Celsius 233
Morocco Bama PERMALINK
June 14, 2011
http://vimeo.com/24821365
======================
Thanks for the link; listened to the whole thing. Good talk and more importantly; correct conclusion, IMO, regarding the future. We’ll see…
jcapan
MB/Petro, intriguing–reminds me of Paul Shepard’s work:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paul_Shepard
Celsius, while I call myself a buddhist in a strictly philosophical sense, it sure is exploited as a religion in my Asian nook. That is a means to profit and prey upon/manipulate the weak and dying. I know, origins and practice … like saying Marx = Stalin.
Celsius 233
jcapan PERMALINK
June 15, 2011
Celsius, while I call myself a buddhist in a strictly philosophical sense, it sure is exploited as a religion in my Asian nook. That is a means to profit and prey upon/manipulate the weak and dying. I know, origins and practice … like saying Marx = Stalin.
=========================
Yes, my nook is/has also done the same. In fact after 40+ years of reading the various Mahayana, Theravada, and Tibetan versions and then coming here; the practiced Buddhism was almost unrecognizable to me. That said; there are still islands of sanity and tradition; one just has to do a little looking.
I’ll stick to my understandings and practices for the time being. Cheers.
Petro
@jcapan:
Thanks for the Paul Shepard link! Was not aware of his work.
Treese
Morocco
I ordered Veronika from the library. Thanks. I suspect I’m going to enjoy that read.
And of course, the classic sociological studies where shrinks couldn’t tell when sane people were sent to them (though the inmates knew.)
Yes. The line between the worlds is a permeable membrane if it even exists. And how is it really determined? Back to social norms which the enlightened among us recognize as more on the insane side in many cases. Teetering about on 8 inch spikes for example. Paying the government to murder strangers. Voting. The S&M emotional public rituals where the desire to hurt people who have nothing to do with one’s own pain dominates. The obsessions. Women knifing their bodies to look attractive then accuse women in veils. The list is endless. I think we cross the membrane all the time to complete our experience. Like dreaming.
I agree with you Jumpjet and the article you linked ties in beautifully.
“Depression, in most of its manifestations, is the healthy suspicion that 1) there may not be an aim or point to existence, and/or 2) that the life people have actually created, the ‘structure of society,’ is not one worth participating in. The objective should not be to kill this suspicion, but to tame it and work with it.”
The suggestion is that psychological disorders could be a path to awareness and need to be investigated. They are not really disorders. They are alternative perceptions and like all tangential thought, it serves a purpose in gaining collective knowledge most people would miss otherwise. It seems that the most aware naturally lean toward depression. When you see rituals not worth participating in, yet you’re here at Go, it can be disconcerting. That’s when I question the point of my existence. I long for the monastery but the same quirks exist there.
It also provokes them to consider whether a depressed state isn’t to some extent rational and objectively warranted.
I would say affirmative.
Another aspect is the sorrow and melancholy associated with depression. It’s a reactive state where senses are engaged in absorbing and translating experience, thus it nourishes many artists. It holds our longing.
In a way, I think we are all schizophrenic as the cognitive part of the brain has developed and the parting of ways with the primitive brain stem is still in motion. There’s some connection to the amygdala which apparently is a crossover point between the two and instrumental in depression. Fear can go directly to the body from the stem, or it can be directed by the amygdala to the cortex where reaction is slowed and more thought out. The brain is supposed to recognize a dire emergency and a need for a quicker less conscious reaction. Perhaps the cognitive mind exaggerates natural depressive thoughts for a variety of reasons.
I think that’s where we’re stuck. Maybe the cortex is getting too much use, and the instinctual reactive part is screaming for attention. We’re getting cues but refuse to respond. Instinct still is important. A simple vote for one of these assholes for example reveals how confused the creature is in trying to decide between right or wrong, good or bad, pretty or ugly, honest or deceitful. Are we voting for pretty teeth, lip gloss, or virtue and a hope for justice?
I really don’t see how one can circumvent depression and occasional despair. Maybe most of what people do is temporary relief from some common reality we really do know deep down. Life is terrifically uncomfortable. We can agree to that. Depression gives us a minute to drop the pretense. Some don’t do as well as others. Should they be separated and sedated? Electrocuted? Kicked off a blog? Occupational therapy probably would work. The decision to take drugs is personal. Depression is used as accusation. That tells the story.
I threw my television in the dumpster 40 years ago after watching The Price is Right one too many times. The spectacle on the modern day TV screen is one of the most psychotic things I’m forced to witness.
Erasure of pain is temporary. That’s where some spiritual philosophical detachment comes in handy. Pain is the cramping/contraction that gets us through the life tract, I believe. It’s so there. Just the fact that we’re sentenced to death could cause any Pollyanna to rethink her unabated happiness.
Yes. I feel that philosophy is a perfect antidote for the incurable. I’m an absurdist.
alyosha
Not to discount the insanity of what passes for normative reality, I had a psych professor many years ago who brought up the research of RD Laing. As others have noted above, Laing didn’t see schizophrenia necessarily as an illness, perhaps the mentally were actually normal, and we’re all insane. I still remember psych professor’s dismissal of Laing’s conclusions: he looked directly at us, smiled, and said “These people (schizophrenics) go through Hell”.
Celsius 233
alyosha PERMALINK
June 15, 2011
he looked directly at us, smiled, and said “These people (schizophrenics) go through Hell”.
============================
He’s right; I have a life long friend and was there for most of his descent into hell. That was over 40 years ago and we’re still in touch. I read Laing, as all of us good hippies did; I loved his advocacy but dismiss his conclusions.
chicago dyke
Unfortunately I’m hearing Buddhism more and more referred to as a religion
and it IS. maybe not for you, but for billions across history, absolutely. also: it’s not better nor worse than any other religions, including the monotheisms. when you find “truth” for yourself that works, bully for you! however it may have been for you, reading the tracts and texts of some tradent or monastic or psychologist or seer brought your there. but never pretend that any sort of “enlightenment” lacks a religious element. the very term itself proves my point. metaphysics are fun; i studied them for over ten years. i have a client who is also a sykologist and i’m being exposed to that field more than ever before (or frankly, i care to be- what BS it all is!) in fact, it’s all mostly the same. “i want to understand myself, understand Meaning, and understand /fill in the blank that is most important to you/.” that is what metaphysics are and always have been, whether called “religion” or “dhamma” or “Zen” or “living in the steps of Christ/Mohammed/Moses” or sacrificing your neighbor’s children to Moloch, or any other way.
Celsius 233
^ Fortunately I’m not responsible for what other people think or believe; I disagree, but have your way and opinion regarding religion.
jcapan
when you find “truth” for yourself that works, bully for you! however it may have been for you, reading the tracts and texts of some tradent or monastic or psychologist or seer brought your there. but never pretend that any sort of “enlightenment” lacks a religious element.
…
“i want to understand myself, understand Meaning, and understand /fill in the blank that is most important to you/.”
Just for clarification, your own discovery of “truth” owes no debt of gratitude? Not necessarily to Alan Watts or Cardinal Newman, but how about Dostoyevsky, Karl Marx, your Mom, Ingmar Bergman? Even those without faith, atheists, nihilists, what have you, have settled on a meaning of existence, even if it’s a gaping void. The notion that they’ve embraced their beliefs wholly unassisted is absurd, as is reducing such a quest to dirty fucking religion.
Celsius 233
Oxford Dictionary
the belief in and worship of a superhuman controlling power , especially a personal God or gods:ideas about the relationship between science and religion
Merriam-Webster
(1) : the service and worship of God or the supernatural
Cambridge
the belief in and worship of a god or gods, or any such system of belief and worship
American Heritage Dictionary
Belief in and reverence for a supernatural power or powers regarded as creator and governor of the universe.
Collins COBUILD: English learner’s definition of
religion
[rɪˈlɪdʒən]
n-uncount
Religion is belief in a god or gods. …Indian philosophy and religion.
n-count
A religion is a particular set of beliefs in a god or gods and the activities connected with these beliefs. …the Christian religion.
These are all the first definition listed in the various dictionaries. With the caveat that people have indeed made a religion of Buddhism; I submit the Dhamma (Buddha’s teaching) fails those definitions. No gods, no supernatural beings, no hierarchy, and no conventional (or otherwise) belief systems.
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jcpan: Alan Watts indeed; my first teacher from the age of 12 (54 years ago) and now I find J. Krishnamurti a compelling study in the wonders of existence.
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Working back to the topic; psychology and psychiatry are failed disciplines, IMO. There have been some talented individuals in the past (Pearls and Jung for example) but with the advent of drugs like Prozac and the sheer insanity of modern American life, the art of healing the mind is all but dead. So, like the good doctor; heal thyself seems to be the only option and for those unfortunate individuals (bi-polar etc.) allopathy seems the only available option. Cheers.
David Kowalski
Part of what is happening with autism is that Asperger’s Syndrome only became accepted in the U.S. in the 1980s and was only widely recognized in the 1990s. At the very same time both Aspies and high functioning autistics were concentrated in a few industrial hubs (re software).
It’s not a fraud. It has always been there (it is genetic). It is more obvious because it is found in larger clumps of higher income individuals.
Society is asking, often demanding, much more from people. For a lot of people the walls between work and home have largely disappeared. Blackberries and iphones are intrusive to an extreme. My girl friend can’t go more than a few hours without having the darned thing assault her. Weeknights. Weekends. Vacations. She spends two hours a day 365 days of the year with it. She has a nice job managing the office of four surgeons but each answer just gets new problems.
If this were a smooth thing where she checked the e-mails and responded once a day for an hour, it would be OK. One weird little fact is that most of West Virginia is a dead spot for Verizon. On one trip she actually had to drive 20 miles to Maryland or Virginia to get service or, horrors, use the hotel phone. Or plug in a computer for the internet.
People in her office, smart people, routinely fall apart under gossip attacks, innuendo, complaints, and vicious currents of God knows what. The pressures about looking good and interacting were far less severe in the past.
Mentally ill? Well, Lincoln qualified for a time. Grant was an alcoholic binge drinker and Sherman was labeled crazy at the time and was pretty clearly autistic (Asperger’s). Winfield Scott was old, fat, and brilliant. Jefferson was another Aspie. Otoh, Hoover or Coolidge were perfectly normal. This is not a good trade.
The North had three non-conflicting strategic visions. Scott proposed blockading the south from European weapons and supplies and seizing the Mississippi to resume commerce. It was ridiculed but, in fact, it worked. In 1862, Sherman proposed taking a 200,000 man army and driving south through Tennessee and Georgia to the sea and then north through the Carolinas to Richmond. Half the force would be used as garrison troops and to protect the supply chain. With the remaining 100,000 he would conquer everything in his path. Two years later, he did it. At the time, a crooked and evil Secretary of War named Simon Cameron used the plan to make Sherman a national joke. Lincoln’s vision may have been the most important. The North had a manpower advantage and needed to attack on all fronts at all times to prevent concentration of forces. New Orleans, the only large city in the south, was left unguarded by Jefferson Davis because he wanted to protect the railroad junction at Corinth, MS.
Morocco Bama
jcapan, are you laying the grounds for idol worship with that last comment about gratitude to the authorities on original thought and expression? It is a thousand times more meaningful for a person to arrive at a coherent view of the world without first consulting a prescribed authority on all thought. For example, earlier in this thread I posted a talk by Robert Jensen. What struck me about this talk is the fact that not a month earlier, during a lengthy hike, my wife and I had this same conversation, and I articulated this very same theory about the Garden of Eden. Several weeks later, when I viewed this link shared by a person on another forum, I was pleased because someone else had the very same thought. Yeah, the idea is not original in the sense that Robert and myself both arrived at it via different roads, but since Robert appears to be more of an authority on the subject, do I owe my thoughts to him, or do we both need to pay homage to Aristotle, Socrates and Descartes because without them, we’d all still be preening nits from each other’s fur.
http://academic.reed.edu/biology/professors/srenn/pages/teaching/web_2008/dklj_site_final/images/allogroom.jpg
Morocco Bama
She has a nice job managing the office of four surgeons but each answer just gets new problems.
Technology has created Pandora’s boxes within Pandora’s boxes within Pandora’s boxes……on into infinity, it appears. It was supposed to make our lives easier….to free us up for higher cerebral activity. That’s hardly the case, and in fact, quite the opposite. It’s a ball and chain.
jcapan
“are you laying the grounds for idol worship with that last comment about gratitude to the authorities on original thought and expression?”
Well, debt of gratitude was just a turn of phrase. And note that I added “The notion that they’ve embraced their beliefs wholly unassisted is absurd.”
When you say “It is a thousand times more meaningful for a person to arrive at a coherent view of the world without first consulting a prescribed authority on all thought,” my reaction is that while a coherent, even original view of the world is entirely possible, but I reject the idea that it’s attained separately from all previous learning and reading. We are ultimately, at least in part, a potpouri of all we’ve consumed over the course of our lives. As literary authors widely agree, all texts are made of up of other texts–but what we do with these various strands is up to us.
IOW, once someone has read King Lear, can it be separated out from their own belief-system entirely, even if they react against Shakespeare’s vision. But in selecting segments that we value and rejecting others, we come up with our own unique view. Jane Smiley once said every consciousness is an entire world.
I don’t look at them as “authorities,” I don’t bow before dead authors, but I’m also not hostile to them. I acknowledge that they’ve played a significant role in my evolving view of the world and my place in it.
With a fever of 103, this may lack coherence.
chicago dyke
please don’t put words in my mouth, jc. i never made any claim about “truth.” others on this thread have. i’m merely being critical and using analysis in a wholly reason-based way of what has been said here. in general, i make no claims of knowing or understanding, or even defining, a term like “truth.” that’s your gig; not mine. i’m an atheist, remember? 😉
Morocco Bama
jcapan, I agree with what you say, and I understood it that way. What irks me about well-read intellectuals is that they erect a certain religion that worships what our society has determined to be the purveyors of original thought, and anyone arriving at any ideas thereafter must attribute those ideas to these Original Thought Gods they have erected, and also pay homage to them. I’ve entered into discussions with many different people on many different forums and invariably I will pose an idea and if it even remotely resembles something they have read from some noted “authority” they will then use that “authority” to marginalize my intent and take the conversation into a realm the “authority” controls, even if the “authority” may be long dead and gone. I do relish the notion, though, that the Words Of The Prophets Are Written On The Subway Walls, meaning you can learn about life, and develop a coherent world-view in the most unconventional of places….places the words of the “authority” have never touched but oft times tried to understand.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9hUy9ePyo6Q
The “Intellectual” caricature I am describing walls themselves up with their books and embraces a life that distances them from the experiences that led to the words that their vaunted and worshiped “authorities” espouse, instead of immersing themselves in the spectrum of life. They wall themselves off from the physical and read about it instead. Reading about it is not without value, of course, but it is lacking in its entirety. This song describes it well.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PKY-smJ6aBQ&feature=related
jcapan
Funny CD, because I’m an agnostic, a position I consider a further step removed from truth. And believe me when I say that’s not my gig either. Truths perhaps but never mono-meanings, imposed or prescribed on all by seers or the learned.
MB, I know all about the ivory tower–your view…
… is exactly why I left. Though for others, the ability to move between worlds is possible.
Will check out the links when I’m feeling better.
madamab
I once did software training at a firm where the secretaries kept Paxil and Prozac in their desk drawers. They were calling out during the day asking for the meds.
These were the least happy women in the world.
I agree absolutely that some drugs do help people, though. Bi-polar depressives have horrible trouble balancing their moods out, and it’s completely chemical. I can’t even imagine what schizophrenics must face.
As for Asperger’s, I recently realized that my uncle might have it. I agree that it’s always been there.
anon2525
Slightly off-topic: For those who read Ian Welsh’s post “Pain,” there is this post at DownWithTyranny:
http://downwithtyranny.blogspot.com/2011/06/harriet-beecher-stowes-loss-and-ian.html
StewartM
Morocco Bama
What irks me about well-read intellectuals is that they erect a certain religion that worships what our society has determined to be the purveyors of original thought, and anyone arriving at any ideas thereafter must attribute those ideas to these Original Thought Gods they have erected, and also pay homage to them. I’ve entered into discussions with many different people on many different forums and invariably I will pose an idea and if it even remotely resembles something they have read from some noted “authority” they will then use that “authority” to marginalize my intent and take the conversation into a realm the “authority” controls, even if the “authority” may be long dead and gone.
On the other hand, counter this is a statement by a college history professor of mine, who mocked “new ideas” with the counter: “There are no new ideas, only restatements and refinements of old ones”.
My reaction is different than yours. When I have an idea that seems original (and is, if you mean I developed it without outside assistance I am often rather honored when I read that someone else made the same (or very similar) case long ago. “Someone else thought of that angle too, eh?”
Of course, I’m even more pleased when I see arguments or positions I came up with decades ago repeated or echoed by someone else. That gives me hope I’m doing something right.
StewartM
Josh
While I’ll grant that depressive symptoms are probably overtreated with antidepressants in the absence of a major depressive episode/disorder, this would more commonly occur with GP prescriptions, not psychiatrists per se. It’s normal to feel sad or down, especially in response to negative events or situations – the issue is the scale of the depression, the length, and the degree to which it interferes with social and occupational function.
I think it is a *gross* disservice and utterly inflammatory to call psychiatrists “frauds”, or to suggest that medication use merely reflects the corruption of Big Pharma. I’d offer that you’ve never seen someone in florid psychosis or self-destructive mania. There isn’t much evidence that antipsychotics damage the brain but there is ample evidence that untreated psychosis leads to poorer outcomes – and lifelong disability. Side effects are well known and carefully monitored.
In a way, I think we are all schizophrenic as the cognitive part of the brain has developed and the parting of ways with the primitive brain stem is still in motion. There’s some connection to the amygdala which apparently is a crossover point between the two and instrumental in depression. Fear can go directly to the body from the stem, or it can be directed by the amygdala to the cortex where reaction is slowed and more thought out. The brain is supposed to recognize a dire emergency and a need for a quicker less conscious reaction. Perhaps the cognitive mind exaggerates natural depressive thoughts for a variety of reasons.
Eh? All schizophrenic? Do you know what schizophrenia is? The amygdala is implicated in the experience of anxiety and fear… I don’t know what you’re talking about re: fear “going” from the brainstem to the “body”.
I think that’s where we’re stuck. Maybe the cortex is getting too much use, and the instinctual reactive part is screaming for attention.
So we should be using white matter tracts more? Or something? “Too much use”? The brainstem is mainly involved in basic processing of sensory information and motor instructions/feedback and regulation of autonomic functions, respiration, and levels of consciousness and arousal.
In any case, flatly stating that drugs make illness worse in the long-term is utterly unsupportable as any kind of blanket statement.
Treese
What is known about the amygdala is that it has a dual sensory input system. Both inputs run from the eyes, ears, and other sense organs to the thalamus. At that point the inputs diverge. One pathway leads directly to the amygdala while the other first passes through the cortex. Each input causes a distinct and specialized behavior. The amygdala is specialized for reacting to stimuli and triggering a physiological response, a process that would be described as the “emotion” of fear (2). After this, the stimuli of the activation of the amygdala is transmitted to the cortex. This is a distinct difference from a conscious feeling of fear. Feelings are thought arise from the second, slower pathway that travels from the sensory input first to the higher cortex and then to the amygdala. In the cortex the frightening stimulus is analyzed in detail, using information from many parts of the brain, and a message is sent back down to the amygdala (2). While having both systems in place may appear to be redundant, its purpose is invaluable. The initial signal, activating the amygdala and its corresponding physiological behaviors, prepares the body for immediate reaction to the stimulus. This is part of the startle circuit. Its physiological effects are similar to the initial stages of fear. By having the body ready for action, the second circuit can then take a moment to analyze the signal in its entirety to determine whether or not the threat is real or perceived. If the threat is real, then the body is already on the go, if perceived, than nothing has been lost. But there are problems associated with the double wiring between the higher cortex and the amygdala. Unfortunately the neural connections from the cortex down to the amygdala are less well developed than are connections from the amygdala back up to the cortex. Thus, the amygdala exerts a greater influence on the cortex than vice versa. Once an emotion has been turned on, it is difficult for the cortex to turn it off (2).
The Role of the Amygdala in Fear and Panic
I think this is pertinent considering the global war on terror that’s marking our chapter in history. Maybe it really is such a war and there’s an opportunity to get more self control. I know I hate to be spooked by people especially since a lot of it is hocus pocus. I’ve worked consciously on my reaction. But no amount of analysis can stop the panic engine that turns continuously. The terrorist bogey man appears rhythmically and cyclically probably for good reason. How can we even begin to think about locating the source of our fears? Drugs help sometimes and block health other times, I think.
Today I had a scary moment. A true panic inducer. But oddly, I reacted slightly differently. My heart did not flip completely out of my body and I realized that the situation was already under control no matter how I reacted or what I did, amygdala be damned. So I methodically and slowly did what I thought I should do. I wonder if this conversation had anything to do with the lessening of severity. Was I prepared? I did know it was coming in time, so in a way, it was a relief. Now I can fix the problem and proceed.
By the bye, the amygdala is also associated with pleasure. The marriage of pain with pleasure is a fascinating one. A lot goes on in one millisecond of experience. Conscious analysis has its place and sometimes it doesn’t. The war between the thinking and feeling bodies is probably worse than the war on terror.
And being right is probably useless. Or temporary at best. Is disagreement an attempt to isolate and find one’s identity? The power of solo. It’s part of my Quarrel Theory which I’ve studied in depth.
Jorba
Riverdaughter get’s it totally right. Thank you, RD.
Ian, you are doing a deep disservice to millions of people suffering with mood disorders. I was one of them. Fortunately I read the literature about 20 years ago when SSRIs became available. I spent the first 40 years of my life anxious and depressed. Since beginning drug therapy – in conjunction with psychotherapy – my life is vastly improved and enriched – better living through chemistry.
For those commenters above who say that mood drugs are being hugely over-prescribed in our society, I would say just the opposite: not nearly enough people with moderate depression and and anxiety are being treated – and yet it can be so effective and transformative. Sadly, these amazing medications are classed with dangerous addictive drugs so it takes some effort to get the prescription (at least in my state, CA).
So when I hear the tiresome meme that Ian has promoted, I laugh except then I remember how many human beings out there are suffering unnecessarily for want of a little pill.
Ian Welsh
Flastly stating there is no evidence the drugs don’t make most conditions worse under long term treatment without having read the books, and thus the evidence, is asinine. Unlike you, I have read the evidence, and I find it convincing.
I can only imagine you defending widespread use of lobotomies back in the day.
Ian Welsh
Pity you haven’t read the literature since SSRIs became available (especially what little literature doesn’t involve bought and paid for researchers). When all studies are taken into account SSRI’s are not clinically more effective than placebos with noticeable side effects.
I know people want to believe, but the evidence is not there. Sorry.
Yeah, more people need to be on psychoactive drugs which are more addictive than opiates. That’s the problem with American society, not enough people are doped up. Normal human existence requires psychoactive drugs to get through. Yup. Pharma loves you.
Celsius 233
Ian Welsh PERMALINK*
June 20, 2011
Pity you haven’t read the literature since SSRIs became available (especially what little literature doesn’t involve bought and paid for researchers). When all studies are taken into account SSRI’s are not clinically more effective than placebos with noticeable side effects.
I know people want to believe, but the evidence is not there. Sorry.
Yeah, more people need to be on psychoactive drugs which are more addictive than opiates. That’s the problem with American society, not enough people are doped up. Normal human existence requires psychoactive drugs to get through. Yup. Pharma loves you.
================================
+ 10 It’s an emotional subject which is all the more reason to look at this non-emotionally. Homework required…
Josh
Flastly stating there is no evidence the drugs don’t make most conditions worse under long term treatment without having read the books, and thus the evidence, is asinine. Unlike you, I have read the evidence, and I find it convincing.
And how much of the primary literature have you read? Cochrane and systematic reviews? RCTs? I did, however, read the linked article and found that it generally misrepresents claims and evidence to the extent that it reflects the books. How many floridly psychotic or suicidal individuals have you been called in to assess?
I can only imagine you defending widespread use of lobotomies back in the day.
Hardly, though I will defend the use of, say, electroconvulsive therapy where indicated. Having said that, surgery can be an effective definitive treatment for epilepsy, though – having assisted on more than a few brain surgeries – I’ll be quite happy to never need one.
Everythings Jake
Ahhhrrrrrrrrrrrggggggggggggghhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
chicago dyke
gosh darnit, i only have so much time to blog, these days. sorry.
Just for clarification, your own discovery of “truth” owes no debt of gratitude?
when did i declare that i know about the discovery of truth? quote me, please.
Not necessarily to Alan Watts or Cardinal Newman, but how about Dostoyevsky, Karl Marx, your Mom, Ingmar Bergman?
i know a great deal about Marx, my mom, Bergman, and D. what do you think i know about them, and why do you assume i am associating myself with any of them? prove it in writing; my writing, please.
Even those without faith, atheists, nihilists, what have you, have settled on a meaning of existence, even if it’s a gaping void.
provide evidence of this statement. from me, from other “atheists and nihilists” you mention. i’d like to see it. i bet you can’t, really.
The notion that they’ve embraced their beliefs wholly unassisted is absurd, as is reducing such a quest to dirty fucking religion.
i’ll be harsh with you, but you religionists really can’t get over yourselves. believe it or not, some of us really can get thru the day “without gawd.” i don’t need to improve, reduce, accelerate, or otherwise infuse anything i do with my life with a supernatural power. like, ever. that’s your thing. try to understand. this is a world that is just as real as Harry Potter to me is to you; which is to say- you take it seriously, for me it’s just fiction. try to deal with that. we exist, and are a growing number. for a reason. most of what concerns you is frankly, ancient tribal conflict that means nothing to people like you today, for all you pretend it does. you don’t believe in Marduk’s all embracing power, right? well, i feel the same way about “god” and jeebus as you likely do with various other gods like those and allah, the ‘gautama’ and Mo. deal with it; i have a better education than you do about this than you, likely.
but seriously: the bottom line is that most “religious” texts were written, and can be factually and scientifically proven as so, by human beings. not any “gawd.” get over this. and grow up. try being like a euro,for a change. they accept this fact as they do, being culturally different, as they must there. it makes life better for so many of them. it will here too, once we try it. religious hatred always fails.
Ian Welsh
Let’s end the religious conversation, please. Not relevant to this thread.
jcapan
“i have a better education than you do about this than you, likely.”
Wow, and it really comes across in your writing! Seriously, are you on medication? Ravings.
Louise H
Last week the Institute of Medicine released its “Relieving Pain in America:
A Blueprint for Transforming Prevention, Care, Education, and Research”.
“Every year, at least 116 million adult Americans experience chronic pain, a condition that costs the nation between $560 billion and $635 billion annually, says a new report…” Chronic pain can be both emotional and physical and intertwined.
A good news write-up of the report is here:
http://www.post-gazette.com/pg/11178/1156217-114-0.stm?cmpid=healthscience.xml
Great quote from the article:
“But narcotics remain problematic. “These are important tools for treating pain,” Dr. Cope said. “But these drugs are like selling guns. They are a controlled substance.”
Prescription drugs are now a leading cause of death in the United States, she pointed out. By 2006, overdoses of opiate pain medication were already the cause of more deaths than cocaine and heroin combined, and those numbers continue to climb.
“People think these drugs are safe, because they’re prescription,” she added. “But they are just as powerful as any street drug.””
Ian Welsh
And automobiles kill more people than almost anything.
The comparison of narcotics to cocaine and heroin (itself an opiate, and more dangerous than morphine) tells us little without breaking it down by type of opiate and telling us how much is prescribed compared to how much cocaine and heroin is used. Heroin, again, is a more powerful opiate than morphine, and I’d be quite surprised if it wasn’t more dangerous than morphine (let alone codeine).
The various designer pain killer drugs are also problematic and lumping them in with simple opiates like codeine and morphine is probably also misleading. Does she include Oxycontin, for example? I suspect she may, and if so that’s quite misleading as it’s not a natural opiate. (I personally don’t understand why we don’t just stick to the basic natural opiates, but I suppose it’s because they can’t be patented.)
Personally, tylenol is more scary to me than normal opiates. That stuff can really mess up your liver at remarkably low doses if you’re unlucky.