The horizon is not so far as we can see, but as far as we can imagine

Bannon Out

Steve Bannon

So, this is Steve Bannon’s last day at the White House.

I wrote that this would be a courtier’s White House, with a lot of knife fights, and with their victors determining a lot of policy.

Bannon’s a white nationalist and scum, of course, but he’s also the only senior advisor who wants to, say, raise taxes and do various other actually populist things. He hates Wall Street and wanted real checks on bankers power, etc.

Again, clearly a bad man, but someone who wanted some good things which will no longer be represented by anyone with the President’s ear. (Also, the popular things.)

It looks like Breitbart is very angry about this.

Bear in mind that two-thirds of Republicans approved of Trump’s speech on Charlottesville, with its equivalence between Nazis and and people protesting Nazis. Trump is impeachment-proof as long as the people who make up the majority of the primary base in the Republican party continue to support him.

But Breitbart has quite a bit of influence with such people.

From a pragmatic, Trumpian point of view, firing Bannon feels like a mistake. He should have been sidelined and given a nice desk and office and mostly inconsequential work. He will be far more of a problem to Trump outside than inside.

(Er, also, Bannon was against military intervention.)

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Oppressive Precedents Used Against Nazis Will Be Used Against the Left


Book Review: The Spirit Level


  1. realitychecker

    Reproduced from last thread:

    Bannon widely perceived to be the last populist left in Trumpland.

    Leaving the same economic people Clinton would have chosen, and the same Secretary of State that Condoleeza Rice wanted.

    Will the Establishment now start loving Trump?

    Does this help the case for revolution?

  2. realitychecker

    A quibble, Ian—

    ” . . . Trump’s speech on Charlottesville, with its equivalence between Nazis and and people protesting Nazis.”

    That does not seem to me to be a fair characterization of what Trump was saying, or of what I would think based on what we know of the behavior of these antifa thugs since the election, and what is visible in the available videos.

    There was no “equivalence,” because he was assessing the behaviors, not the spiritual qualities of the opponents.

    It seems to me that there was, indeed, blame to be spread around, including that of the police and McAuliffe, all of whom really seemed to want to see this situation get violent. Disturbingly, you are echoing the mainstream media on this, which I think is usually a big mistake.

    I note that Yves Smith closed all comment threads because she could not stand having some people challenge this “equivalence” meme. I would not want to see you leaning toward folks who think like her.

    I think it is foolishly naive if anyone believes the antifa folks were not looking and hoping for trouble. They have benefited greatly every time they created violent spectacles against righties.

    Every participant in a situation contributes to the situation. This binary way of making one side pure evil and the other pure saintly is bullshit when dealing with actual human beings as opposed to popular stereotypes.

    Your honesty is what makes you special to folks like me. Stay strong, please.

  3. The Stephen Miller Band

    Should we start a CrowdFunding Campaign so he can afford Rent & Groceries now that he’s been Kicked To The Curb? Bannon is now a Bowery Boy.

    The White House has quite literally been transformed into the set for The Apprentice and we’re only in the First Season.

    Confucius say — Never Trust Alligator Who Say Wants Drain Swamp

  4. The Stephen Miller Band

    I don’t want Presidents making statements about every incident. I want Presidents busy addressing the most urgent issues facing Humanity & The Planet. It’s Paternalism that requires we beseech Daddy President to console us when we stub our toe or bang our elbow. F*ck that!! Grow the hell up, PEOPLE, and let Presidents do the REAL WORK if you can find one willing to rather than Pandering & Preening.

  5. The enemy of my enemy is not my friend. He is the enemy of my enemy. Nothing more.

  6. realitychecker

    @ Ten Bears


    Best case is if we get to watch both those enemies destroy each other.

    Maybe then our side gets a chance to win something.

  7. BlizzardOfOz

    Bannon’s a white nationalist

    Any shred evidence for this, other than the $PCL’s list of 100 Hitlers? All evidence is that Bannon (like Trump) has nothing but contempt for guys like Spencer.

  8. realitychecker

    Serious query: If whites will indeed be a minority here by 2040-2050, is it completely illegitimate for whites to speak about their concerns as an ethnic demographic, just like all other ethnic demographics get to do? (Let’s say they are not Nazis, but just concerned whites. Can they do the kinds of things other groups get to do, or can’t they?)

    Why or why not?

  9. a1


    “I note that Yves Smith closed all comment threads because she could not stand having some people challenge this “equivalence” meme. I would not want to see you leaning toward folks who think like her.”

    Yves Smith is a McKinsey consultant who are big babies when things don’t go their way. People were respectfully disagreeing with her and she tends to go ballistic with that because McKinsey consultants are the ultimate in Chris Arnade’s “Front Row Kids.” Yves is never wrong as McKinsey consultants are never wrong, blah blah blah.

    Yves at one time had a post about how she has a really high pain tolerance. Really? I have experience in this field and there is no such thing as a pain o meter, so quit making up shit Yves.

    Sorry Yves, given your high pain threshold, why such a low emotional intelligence quotient when you discovered some of your readers and commenters disagree with you?

    Btw Ian, I agree with you on Bannon but I get tired of your virtue signalling. Quit with Bannon is “bad” stuff. Bad is relative and right now I think the entire 0.01% could care less about me and mine and is “bad” for me.

  10. Ché Pasa

    Ian, I submit that you don’t know what Bannon is for or not for as he, like Trump, changes his beliefs to suit the audience/situation.

    He, like Trump and many of their fans, is adept at psychological and emotional manipulation. It works on some, not on many.

    What they are for and/or against is a “known unknown.”

  11. I’m all for America First (though a good global citizen), especially the working class, controlling immigration, and lots of other things I assume Bannon would support. However, it’s not clear to me that Bannon made much positive difference in moving us in this direction. In fact, insofar as Bannon had influence in the direction of policy, we would have to commensurately blame him for the LACK of progress in the populist/anti-globalist direction.

    Frankly, I don’t even have a good idea of what the heck Bannon was doing.

    However, Roger Stone has a better idea, and is full of criticism. Most of Stone’s criticisms have to do with basic decisions and behavior exhibited by Bannon. I still don’t know what the day-to-day doings of a “White House strategist” are. From “Bannon’s Time Is Up” @

    “It is more in sadness than in anger that I conclude that Steve Bannon has failed to look out for the Trump constituency, while establishment “never Trumpers ” line up for cushy jobs and prestigious ambassadorships. Not understanding that “personnel is policy”, Bannon refused to fight for any of his allies or those who helped get Trump elected. It’s as if Steve felt the grubby business of patronage was below him.

    While Bannon bitched about Priebus privately he worked as a partner with the former Republican National Chairman including an embarrassing “Abbott and Costello” act at CPAC, the Conservative Political Action Conference held yearly outside of Washington in which Bannon covered Priebus’ ass and they lavished each other with wet kisses. Meanwhile, no Trump campaign veterans were being hired in the Trump White House.

    But it’s far worse than this.

    Bannon engineered the ascent of Rex Tillerson at State despite the fact that Tillerson’s patron and chief influence is non-other than Condoleezza Rice, the neocon former Bush NSA Director and cheerleader for the Iraq war. Documents which leaked from the Presidential transition proved that Rice was Tillerson’s advocate and that several other staffers she recommended where quickly hired at State. Perhaps this is why Politico correctly tabbed the rise of veteran Romney-ites at State. The Trump State Department has failed to excise the Soros control of a number of U.S. embassies and is currently leaning on the Hungarian government not to impede Soros toppling of that democratically elected government. Bannon delivered the Trump State Department into the hands of the Globalists.”

    Perhaps we can sum up Stone thusly, “Bannon was a strategist who stank at strategy, and failed to get enough key hires, NOT from the swamp, to initiate the Trump presidency in a productive and non-chaotic manner.”

  12. Hugh

    There is not a lot of equivalence or blame to spread around when it is a question of your fist and my nose. Not every argument has two sides. Trump was going for a Big Lie when he said that fine people march with N*zis and white supremacists.

    Bannon was a particular type of American fascist. Fascism can have populist elements, but in its essence it is about sacrificing the needs of the people to some greater goal. It says a lot about Trump that he had and kept Bannon so close to him for so long.

    While Bannon certainly did his part to promote and contribute to the godawful train wreck that is the Trump Presidency, the black hole at the center of all the chaos, incompetence, and malevolence we are seeing remains Trump himself. And like so many in this Administration, his downfall did not come about because of any of that but rather, like his boss, he did not know when simply to shut the fuck up.

    I think Bannon had very little effect on policy. Trump has filled what positions he has filled with hard core conservatives, not populists. Bannon’s presence in the White House seemed mainly about atmospherics, a way to placate a certain segment of what Trump saw as his base, white working class voters, without actually giving them anything. That Trump sees this group as a bunch of racist yokels and rubes who could and can be bought off with various dogwhistles says a lot about Trump. This group has legitimate concerns and grievances and is looking for substantial positive change from Trump. They are not going to get it, and they will peel off from him. Their problem is that they have no real place to go with the Democratic party being a party that stands for nothing, and certainly not them.

    I am ambivalent about the choice between the chaotic, ineffectual malevolence of Trump versus the more effective, considered malevolence of Pence. Trump can limp by with approval ratings in the mid-thirties, but he has the potential, really the certainty, of many more embarrassing idiocies in the future as well as the specter of the Mueller investigation. He will not win re-election with such numbers. And if his approval ratings start dipping into the upper to mid- twenties, a drop really of only ten percent from where he is now, the likelihood of the Republican Establishment abandoning and/or moving against him increases exponentially. This is because about 25% of the electorate are reflex Republicans. They will vote for anyone with an “R” after their name, and that name, of course, does not have to be Trump.

  13. Cagliostrowned

    lol, “Soros” this and “Soros” that.

  14. @realitychecker “I think it is foolishly naive if anyone believes the antifa folks were not looking and hoping for trouble.”

    That is their MO. I recommend this excellent summary and analysis , by “left anarchist Keith Preston”, who, I must admit, I’ve never heard of, before today. According to Preston, at an organizational level, only antifa (and unnamed similar groups) went to Charlottesville INTENDING to riot.

    Republicans in Congress seem to have largely gone wobbly in the face of the media assault. If so, then I would have to consider this a victory for antifa, at least so far. Trump was also implicitly smeared by #nevertrump ‘er Mitt Romney, today, who said, Trump should “State forcefully and unequivocally that racists are 100% to blame for the murder and violence in Charlottesville.”

    If you listen to the analysis I posted a link to, you’ll see this is a lie. Besides antifa, the police went AWOL for 2 hours, immediately after “dispersing the 2 sides into each other”. Thus ensued the height of the violence. Apparently, Sessions and DOJ WILL investigate the failings of the police department to do their job, not just rioters from both sides. IMNSHO, the police decision makers (and probably a political superior or two) are the most culpable for the violence, and violations of civil liberties of both sides, who sought no physical conflict. If I’m correct, and this was a Deep State false flag type of destabilization, the chain of culpability should go even higher. Good luck with that, Jeff Sessions….

  15. NR


    “There was no “equivalence,” because he was assessing the behaviors, not the spiritual qualities of the opponents.”

    Wrong. This is what Trump actually said:

    “You had some very bad people in that group. You also had some very fine people on both sides.”

    Again, this is what Trump actually said. He said that some people who marched among the Nazis and white supremacists in Charlottesville were “fine people.”

    Fine people.

    These people were marching with Neo-Nazis. They were standing in solidarity with swastikas and white hoods. These are not fine people. Yet Trump said they were.

  16. Hugh

    Re Naked Capitalism, a great way for a site to kill itself off is for the site owner to go to war against those who use it and comment on it. Sites like Naked Capitalism become communities and that community is expressed in the comment threads. Site owners do not own that community. They are rather stewards of it and have responsibilities to it. So if anybody wants to do Yves a favor, they should tell her to turn comments back on, not write any great defense of her actions or continue to threaten them, just a simple “I apologize to my commenters. Comments are back on.”

    This is hardly the first time. For those of us who remember the decline and demise of firedoglake, that was a site where its posters, mostly mainstream Democrats, became increasingly out of touch with and hostile toward its commenting community which was much more progressive.

  17. nihil obstet

    I don’t follow the Washington soap opera closely enough to analyze well the ins and outs, the personalities, the implications of what seems to be a really entertaining show for fans of carnival geeks. My sense is that Bannon wasn’t having any real effect on Trump, who seems to have come down for tax cuts for the rich, saber rattling, and giving corporations the regulatory regime they have been dreaming of. Meanwhile, he seems to be even more vulgar than Trump, and Trump does want to be admired by the elite (he wants to be admired by everybody, but he’s in the company of the elite now and that seems to matter), so he may be throwing away the embarrassing friend, the way you do when you’ve got a shot at being accepted by the cool kids.

    I’m happy at anything that makes an evil presidency ineffective. The U.S. presidency has entirely too much power, largely because the legislative branch won’t take responsibility for governance. I nurture hopes that the ineffectual meanderings of the Trump administration will make others in the government step up in ways that trim presidential power.

  18. Cagliostrowned

    “left anarchist Keith Preston”, who, I must admit, I’ve never heard of, before today.

    I hadn’t, either. This was pretty much all I needed to know, though:

  19. realitychecker

    @ Hugh

    Everyone agrees about the fist-nose thingy, but that’s the simple case. It matters whose fist moved first, and it especially matters how loosely you choose to interpret and apply the concept of “inciting to violence,” which I find ridiculous and problematic in all cases, as it seems just as, or more, reasonable to say the one who felt and acted “incited” may just have self-control problems, or peculiar ethnic subculture norms that they feel justifies them initiating violence.

    In this case, I’ve seen enough to conclude that many on both sides were itching for and very quick to engage in violent behavior. And the Governor and the police have a lot to answer for, as I am certain will be revealed by any competent investigation. We don’t have to have a great imagination to understand that the police state could find a violent rally very useful to justify future curtailment of our freedoms.

    @ NR

    I was referring specifically to Trump’s remarks about the violence that took place, and he was very even-handed about that, and accurate, from the videos I have seen.

    I would add that I have no doubt there were thugs and assholes on both sides that day, as well as some decent people on both sides. I can tell you that I think a lot of people resent any attempts to destroy/remove historical statues, and where the hell does that end once you let it get started?

    How about instead of pretending that certain problematic history never happened and trying to disappear it down the memory hole, we accept that we have always been an imperfect nation and accept responsibility for the wrongs that have been committed along the way, and just commit ourselves to doing better in the future? That’s what I would urge.

    FWIW, I’m agnostic but my mother and many in my family are Jewish, so don’t anyone make the mistake of thinking I don’t absolutely hate Nazis and white supremacists. But I love the First Amendment and the marketplace of ideas concept, and can still remember when the left did, too.

  20. NR


    “I would add that I have no doubt there were thugs and assholes on both sides that day, as well as some decent people on both sides.”

    Decent people don’t march side-by-side with Nazis. If you do that, you are by definition, not a decent person.

  21. Synoia

    I know not the truth, and probably never will.

    Charlottesville, to me, appears to have ripped open an ugly, exploited and manipulated chasm is the US.

    The problems faced by both left and right are the same, neoliberalism. Both sides appear exploited by puppet-masters who what to use these people anger for their own ends.

    I don’t like the colour of those dark clouds on the horizon, nor the squalls I can see between now and the horizon.

    I suspect looking at the Nazis’ who marched or Antifa who appear to be equally ready to fight, one is not looking at root cause, but a symptom. I’m not considering them equivalent, they both appear exploited, used , led to slaughter.

    Politics, especially in the US, is spectacularly able to ignore root cause and blame symptoms, not the underlying disease.

    “Hubble, bubble, toil and trouble, something wicked this way comes.”

  22. NR


    Oh, and by the way, we’re still looking for those “very fine people” who were just “quietly protesting” the removal of a statue. Stephen Hayes couldn’t find them.

    “It’s hard to find video—from the truly bad people in the news media or from participants—that shows these very fine people protesting only the removal of the statue. So I asked Christopher Suarez, a reporter with the Charlottesville Daily Progress, if he saw the people Trump described when he covered the rallies over the weekend. Suarez was there from the beginning to the end of these events and, in addition to his work for the paper, captured them on a near minute-to-minute basis on Twitter, walking Friday night with the torchbearers from a stadium where they gathered beforehand to the torchlit rally before the statue. Suarez couldn’t say for sure how many of the people he encountered last weekend were very fine or innocent or unaffiliated with white supremacist or neo-Nazis. “Most of them were in the white collared shirt and khaki pants ‘uniform’ of the white supremacist groups,” he said. “I think it’s safe to say that wearing those clothes at a rally like that means you know exactly what these event organizers and leaders believe. They aren’t heritage groups. It’s about more than just Lee.”

    An email quoted by the Wall Street Journal’s James Freeman supports Suarez’s account. The email comes from a source close to the Monument Fund, a Charlottesville-based nonprofit dedicated to preserving some Confederate-themed monuments and adding more balanced historical explanations to the sites. “Nobody from our group attended the protests or counter-protests,” the source tells Freeman. “We all stayed away. As everybody should have done.”

  23. Richard

    Trump is a vindictive narcissistic con man with no moral center but his administration is turning out to be (to paraphrase Krugman) a typical Republican administration except more racist, more authoritarian, meaner, and far more incompetent.

    All of you who fell for Trump are patsies.

  24. Richard

    ^ I forgot to add: More venal and corrupt as well. If you thought previous administrations and regular pols were corrupt, Trumps blows past them in that department.

  25. Lex

    @realitychecker, if whites are worried about how they’ll get treated as a minority, maybe the thing to do would have been to use the last several hundred years making sure minorities are treated equally. But then whites wouldn’t have those confederate heroes and heritage to defend as their culture, would they. So what does that say about white culture?

  26. realitychecker

    @ NR

    “Decent people don’t march side-by-side with Nazis. If you do that, you are by definition, not a decent person.”

    Is that what they told you in kindergarten? Let me show you how ridiculous that statement is:

    Decent people don’t march side-by-side with anarcho-fascist thugs. The Heyer woman who died was marching with anarcho-fascist thugs. Therefore, you must believe she was not a decent person. Ditto anyone who showed up at Berkeley and other places to shut down unapproved speakers, along with the masked antifa thugs. Right? Grow up. That’s embarrassing.

    And to illuminate things further for you, you know those sources you cite because apparently you think I should accept their testimony in preference to my own sound judgment after viewing many of the innumerable videos taken in real time and available on-line?

    Anybody who has been paying attention knows that Stephen Hayes (former editor Weekly Standard) and the Wall Street Journal represent the Republican Establishment, which hates Trump and never misses an opportunity to down him because he is not Jeb Bush, their preferred candidate. Christopher Suarez is such a nobody that wikipedia doesn’t even know him, but S-U-A-R-E-Z might give you a clue about his sentiments vis a vis Trump; in case that is not sufficient, are you aware who owns The Daily Progress newspaper (the only daily in Charlottesville)? Berkshire Hathaway, since 2012. I presume you have heard of Warren Buffett?

    If you are going to play this game, you need to at least learn who the players are.

  27. realitychecker

    @ Richard

    Right-e-o, Krugman knows all/s.

    I was just shaking my head looking at his latest offering in what used to be The New York Times.

    Sad to see what passes for analysis with some people.

  28. bruce wilder

    Way back in the day, I was for a time a Civil War buff of sorts, and those who identified with the Confederates always annoyed me. Robert E Lee was a saint to some of these people. I protested (letter-writing) various efforts to get national honors for traitors. Jefferson Davis Highway, my ass! I spent many hours arguing states rights in great detail with other enthusiasts confused in their loyalties.

    I got to a point where I could make the arguments of the latter-day Confederates better than most who sincerely espoused them. I understood their point of view, became accustomed to their blind spots and favorite made-up “facts”.

    I could not do anything like that with the likes of Bannon or, say, a ratfucker like Roger Stone mentioned up thread. I do not understand their views of politics. I could not confirm or deny that Bannon is some flavor of “white nationalist”. I simply do understand the mentalities.

    I think I recognize Trump’s reaction to Charlottesville, though. A military school brat: Robert E Lee was a hero. Superficial and sincere and conventional and ignorant.

    Trump’s great strength politically is that he talks like “a normal person”, or at least some recognizable species of “normal” as opposed to a politician who speaks in a code dictated by the fake-outrage Wurlitzers of the political mass media. I am not saying I personally like it (he sounds like a slightly demented third-grader to my ear), or that I overlook his playing loose with facts or his superficial understanding of issues. But, I do not see any merit in the way Clinton talked; I can even see why people not familiar with the conventions would dismiss Clinton-speak as difficult to parse or nonsense or even a string of lies.

    My point is that the Trump Administration has been subject to a soft coup. The Administration is effectively in the hands of a military junta supported by reactionary business interests. At least, that seems a reasonable hypothesis for interpreting recent developments and the course ahead. Charlottesville is being used by the Republican establishment to impose message discipline of a kind on Trump, even as a very tight faction in uniform tames the military school brat. Trump is being schooled.

    I do not think what Trump has actually said merits the outrage from the left, from the Democratic establishment or the Republican establishment. Especially with regard to the two Party establishments, I do not forget that they are OK with torture and aggressive war, lies about wmd, and stealing by banksters. From Republicans especially this new taboo on racists seems a bit unbelievable. Ten minutes ago, most Republicans would be drawing false equivalence between the militia types and antifa, imitating Trump’s circumlocutions and much worse in a wink and a nod at a Republican base.

    But, getting Trump’s mouth corralled is job 1. They cannot have him mentioning to a public sick of paying the bills in blood and treasure that the military have lost the war(s) in the middle east. Out of the mouths of babes, drunks and idiots, veritas. Truth. Common-sense. Cannot have any of that at the top.

    Bannon, whatever else he may be, clearly supported Trump’s loose and impulsive rhetorical style. It might have been support for a vision of truth-telling and “truth” I could never agree with, but I also understand that none of “the serious people” in power are interested in truth-telling, either.

    There was an opening there — in Bannon and his soi disant nationalism — that most certainly is not available from the Clinton establishment on the Democratic side. And, that opening is being closed by methodical purposeful hands, hands that do not care much about racism per se.

    Much of the left apparently feels repulsed by nationalism and patriotism. That is certainly convenient for a cosmopolitan, who benefits from a globalization that delivers despair for the uncomprehending deplorables.

    What I thought when I saw the news about Charlottesville and the political ranting and attempt at a moral panic was how silly it all is. The neo-Nazi’s are angry people. Maybe because anger feels better than shame. I do not know. Maybe it is cosplay for some of them. I am sure that a mix of motives are in play on the other side too. Antifa is a very, very silly business too though I will allow that they show somewhat better taste in choosing sides. ( I have met some black bloc anarchists and they tend to be really unpleasant people while many espoused racists I have known can be goofily affable and very warm and helpful one on one. So go figure.)

    But, with all the political and economic problems facing this country, this is where you take your stand??!

    And, given the serious deficiencies in public morality demonstrated in the country’s policy, domestic and foreign, what is it that you seek to change institutionally and what is your strategy for persuading others to support that change?

    I cannot reject on the evidence available two troubling hypotheses.

    One is that BLM, Antifa, and other “movements” are not moving at all. They look backward and want to re-enact an imagined but poorly understood struggle of the past, to experience from participating the imagined virtue of personalities past. And the other is that they aim for a moral transformation of individual consciousness: the aim is press home the insight that slavery, or racism or Nazi’s are unambiguously wrong so that a person possessed of this insight will simply turn away or shun these behaviors as impure.

    It seems an oddly incomplete vision of human nature as well as social justice. In its frame a statue of General Lee, undoubtedly installed on behalf of people supportive of “a way of life” (or some similar euphemism for deriving sustenance, privilege and status from injustice), looms large. But, where is the politics of structure, where is confronting power with power?

  29. realitychecker

    @ Lex

    Right, the whites who are alive today should go back and do history different. That’s pretty stupid.

    OR, maybe they should go back and just kill or exclude everyone who fails to show appropriate gratitude for being allowed to be in this place where everyone in the world wants to get to. Is that something you would support?

    OR. maybe we should look at Africa or Latin America to assess the quality of those ‘minority’ cultures?

    No wonder the left is in the shitter these days. (sigh)

  30. Hugh

    realitychecker, the language I was quoting is from the Supreme Court opinion. The Court held that inciting violence or lawless action was protected speech as long as such incitement did not result in, or was likely to result in, imminent violence or lawlessness. There may be some gray areas but overall the difference is stark.

    Protected speech: “We should kill all the _______ (fill in the blank).
    Not Protected: “I’ve got my gun. You’ve got yours. Let’s go kill some _______ (fill in the blank).

    There is also a significant difference between someone who may want to engage in a shoving match or throw a few punches and people with guns and cars they run into crowds. It is a false equivalence to equate the two.

    You have an odd idea about what constitutes “historical”. Most of the statues in question were erected not in the aftermath of the Civil War but 70 years later in the Jim Crow era mostly in the South. They were placed as official symbols of an official system of segregation. So it is disingenuous to assert that they are now apolitical commemorations.

  31. realitychecker

    @ Bruce Wilder

    Another great comment from you sir, brimming with wisdom for the consideration of the thoughtful among us.

    We seem to be arriving at the juncture that was always the worst case scenario in my thoughts, which is that Trump, who I perceived to be the last realistic chance to break the death-grip of the duopoly parties, would come to be seen as having completely failed at or betrayed that slim hope which was the best available option from another menu of shit sandwiches.

    I have always thought that this turn of events would result in greater anger among the people, and might move us closer to the point of actually fighting back in a meaningful way.

    I guess now we will see if the People have any spine at all, if they want and deserve freedom enough to fight for it, or if they will settle for being livestock under the control of the globalist oligarchs.

    Interesting times, as the Chinese say.

  32. realitychecker

    @ Hugh

    I did not misunderstand you. The concept of incitement is itself problematic, and I stand by my comment. If the incitement is deemed to be imminent, why is it imminent, i.e., as where the antifa shows up with the intent of feeling “incited.” Why is that not a failure of self-control being evidenced by the antifa crowd? That is the context of the present situation. The righties are being acuused of inciting the antifa, not the other righties. Get it now?

    Noone is defending the car homicide. Nobody used a gun. Let’s stay focused here. I’ve seen lots of videos now, and the antifa guys were just as eager to engage as the righties. It’s obvious.

    Re historical: It’s interesting to me to see people who hate what the locals liked (evidenced by the fact that they erected these statues), and decide they will insist they be torn down. Especially when there seems to be no logical way to set an end point. What if others want to remove statues and monuments to heroes of the left? Is that OK, too? That is the ISIS position, anyone with power can destroy and cast into the memory hole whatever they disapprove of. Orwell tried to warn us against that. Do you think he was wrong to worry about it?

  33. realitychecker

    @ Hugh

    I might add that it is amusing to visualize how the South would have set up all the statues they might have wanted during Reconstruction. I think they had other priorites then. Like surviving.

    The point is, people go crazy over this shit. What will happen when someone wants to name a building or a battleship or raise a statue to memorialize the first black female Attorney General of the U.S., with the very unfortunate name of “Lynch.” We’ll have to accede to all those triggered folks, amirite? Why get sucked into such madness? (Especially a really smart guy like you.)

  34. Richard

    Realitychecker: Ad hominem attacks are weak and usually show that the attacker doesn’t have good arguments.

    Are you going to argue that Trump isn’t vindictive and narcissistic and has no moral center?

    Or do you plan to argue that the Trump administration actually isn’t standard Republican except more racist, more corrupt, meaner, and massively more incompetent?

  35. NR


    If your moral compass is so twisted that you cannot accept Nazis as the bad actors in this incident, that really tells us all we need to know about you. The Ku Klux Klan, the Nazis, and their white supremacist allies lit torches, formed a mob, and marched through the streets denouncing non-white people while carrying Trump signs, and a woman was killed for objecting to it. That you would defend this is disgusting.

    Oh, and this:

    “Christopher Suarez is such a nobody that wikipedia doesn’t even know him, but S-U-A-R-E-Z might give you a clue about his sentiments vis a vis Trump”

    So non-white journalists cannot possibly be unbiased about Trump, is that it? Ian, you’d best decide if you want to let racist bullshit like this fester in your comment section.

  36. Did you hear the one about the NAZI that took nine of his buddies to the bar? Bartender said “what are those ten NAZIs doing in my bar?

  37. Cagliostrowned

    It’s interesting to me to see people who hate what the locals liked (evidenced by the fact that they erected these statues)

    The “locals” who erected that statue are all dead. It’s not like these things are being melted down into commemorative antifa coins, either, they’re being relocated away from prominent, public spaces into museum contexts. Nor is it like they are relics of the Civil War whose history we must preserve at all costs; the Lee statue was erected in 1924, for god’s sake. I’d also like a list of these American statues and monuments to heroes of the left, because they sure as hell aren’t publicized if they exist. There’s a Lenin statue in Seattle, but he’s certainly not universally a “hero” of the left.

  38. Herman

    The Bannon situation probably proves that it is very hard to try to mix traditional Republican business conservatism with authentic right-wing populism that is willing to give ordinary people some benefits in exchange for other parts of the populist-nationalist program. The business class in this country has no interest in conceding anything to Bannon types especially when the Republicans have been quite successful gaining state houses and Congress without Trump.

    The only thing stopping the Republicans from impeaching Trump and replacing him with Pence (who would almost certainly get along with the Congressional GOP better than Trump) is the fear of Trump’s hardcore supporters showing up at their offices, possibly armed.

    The Democrats and left-wingers should be worried about a more competent and streamlined Trump administration or a possible Pence administration. Pence would be far more competent than Trump, thus more damaging.

  39. brian

    `white nationalist, and scum, of course`


  40. Richard

    Herman: A more competent Trump administration is pretty much outside of our reality as it exists and in the realm of sci-fi/fantasy.

    Pence is more competent. Whether that is more damaging depends on events. For instance, he may be able to overturn Obamacare, but that would mean an even bigger GOP wipeout in ’18 and ’20. And would you rather have a major crisis with Trump or Pence in charge? In any case, short of Trump being assassinated, it’s hard for me to think of a scenario where Trump is gone but Pence isn’t a seriously wounded President a la Gerald Ford.

  41. Some Guy

    “I guess now we will see if the People have any spine at all, if they want and deserve freedom enough to fight for it, or if they will settle for being livestock under the control of the globalist oligarchs.”

    Here’s a reality check for you:

    People have no spine, they will not fight for freedom, they will not even realize they are livestock under control of globalist oligarchs, and to the extent they muster the spirit to fight at all, they will fight amongst themselves over various microagressions, each more petty and misdirected than the last.

    I’m no Nostradamus, but I think you can take this one to the bank.

  42. realitychecker

    @ Richard

    Your appeal to Krugman as authority showed me you are a happy neoliberal who is at least ten years behind the times, so there is no way I can take anything you say seriously. Sorry. You should be happy-Trump has all the same Goldman Sachs people running things as Hillary would have had.

    Some people never learn, and you appear to be one of them.

    All high level politicians are nasty vindictive lying narcissists. Especially Hillary, who I am sure you voted for.

    Just spare me.

  43. realitychecker

    @ NR

    Your moral compass is bigger than my moral compass, is that your position?

    You lack a functioning brain if you don’t know that some groups have near-universal negative views about Trump.

    I notice you have nothing to say about the other “authorities” you relied on.

    Piss off, moron.

  44. BlizzardOfOz

    @rc, it seems to me that, for all your talk about “revolution”, what you’re doing on this thread, perceiving the truth and speaking it plainly, is more valuable. There’s not going to be a revolution, because the West has exhausted its store of ideas.

    Where’s the revolutionary fervor today? Did you think the left cared about health care and Wall Street? You were fooled. Look at what really gets them exercised: tearing down white-supremacy statues, keeping open the floodgates of migration from the 3rd world. The fervor of new life is to be found in Asiatic and African man, in his desire finally to overthrow the white man’s world. They’re joined by a mob of atomized and deracinated whites, in some kind of demonic trance clamoring to dash to the ground everything their grandfathers built.

    The revolution finally disperses the last holdouts, and calls a new Constitutional Convention. What do they come up with? Can you imagine? I don’t know what that conjures up for you, but it has me wanting to flee to the furthest monastery I can find. What we need is not a revolution, but a restoration, if we still have it in us.

  45. realitychecker

    @ Some Guy

    I surely do wish that was all news to me.

    But I am glad that some can see what is plain to see.

    Sadly, I am pretty sure you have it right. The manipulators have done their job well over the last few decades.

    This ain’t Hollywood, and happy endings are not guaranteed for us. We lost the war while we pursued frivolities.

  46. realitychecker

    @ BoO

    I want a revolution so we can have safer safe spaces, of course lol.

    Freedom? What’s that?

  47. NR


    You’ve certainly shown your true colors here, by defending Nazis and claiming that non-white journalists are incapable of doing their jobs. Your opinion of me could not possibly matter any less. The vile, hateful bullshit you spew is more than enough to see to that.

  48. NR

    @Some Guy:

    I hope you’re not laboring under the illusion that realitychecker and his ilk will oppose the oligarchs in any meaningful way, either. We’ve seen in this comment thread who it is that he really hates, and it isn’t the people sitting at the tops of the corporate skyscrapers. In fact, the only time people like him care about economic issues at all is when they can use them to attack “globalists,” which is their code word for Jews.

  49. reslez

    As Ian might say: First, do no harm.

    Trump has bad ideas. His cabinet is filled with crony capitalists. His economic policies crib from the failed neoliberal standard. During seven months in office, Trump’s heaviest lifting was in support of a terrible health care plan. It wasn’t a populist plan. It would have materially harmed his strongest supporters and it contradicted what he promised during the campaign. Even if Trump wanted to pursue a humane foreign policy, he wouldn’t be able to, because Congress would override him.

    The best we can get from Trump is nothing.

    The more chaotic and less effective Trump’s time in office, the better.

    Clinton has bad ideas, but she would have been effective at implementing them. The same is true of Pence. So it’s better for us that Trump is in office than either of them. The longer Trump clings to power and shuffles around without accomplishing much, the better for us. Nothing is not a terrible outcome.

    I don’t think Trump is an effective enough communicator to actually start a race war, but inflaming a racial controversy might distract Congress from trying to accomplish things that would damage our country further, like selling out further to their donors. Maybe it’s just the time of year. Like dead interns and inconvenient hurricanes, these are the tidings that afflict America in August.

    And that’s all we need, internet sociopaths coming here to score argument points by smearing a dead woman. Not to mention two dozen other victims, including a black man beaten half to death. I’m certain there are deranged ISI* sympathizers who do something similar, secretly cheering on car attacks in Europe because those smug imperialists had it coming. They intended violence too, right? How many state legislatures is it that want to decriminalize car drivers who plow into protesters and kill them? Yeah, that’s all we need.

  50. BlizzardOfOz

    @rc, don’t you see, you’ve already been put on the List of 6 Million Hitlers. The revolution will be led by Dwayne Herbert Mountain Dew Camacho spouting bullshit to flatter the resentments of these people. The Revolutionary Convention’s Delegate for Black Bodies, Ta Nehisi Coates, will absolutely insist on a Safe Spaces amendment for the new constitution.

    Freedom, what’s that? Our founders limited the franchise because they understood that freedom is impossible without responsibility. That’s Racist Hate Speech now. How many people today have any concept at all of the old idea of liberty? Of those that do, how many will be leading the revolution (hint: zero).

  51. BlizzardOfOz

    By the way, the sheer psychotic vitriol is why I can’t be overly critical of Ian’s discordant virtue signalling. The left are much like the radical Muslims they love so much — if they detect a badthinker (and it takes less every day), they’ll target him and his family for total destruction.

  52. Richard

    LOL, realitychecker, name-calling (that isn’t based on reality) pretty much shows you for what you are: a sad bitter old man who got conned.

    I was merely giving credit where it was due (as Krugman was the first who used the phrase that the Trump administration is merely a standard GOP administration but more racist).

    Again, are you going to argue that Trump isn’t vindictive and narcissistic and has no moral center?
    Or do you plan to argue that the Trump administration actually isn’t standard Republican except more racist, more corrupt, meaner, and massively more incompetent?

    You won’t respond to that because you’re not honest enough to admit that you’re a sucker. But that doesn’t make it less true.

  53. NR


    “The Revolutionary Convention’s Delegate for Black Bodies, Ta Nehisi Coates, will absolutely insist on a Safe Spaces amendment for the new constitution.”

    You guys just murdered a woman for speaking out against you while you were marching, and you have the gall to accuse others of wanting safe spaces? That’s rich.

  54. Richard

    Anyway, it doesn’t matter. Trump is Carter (hopefully). Hopefully not Pierce. (As an aside, it’s amazing how well recent events have fit Stephen Skowronek’s framework).

    If the Reagan/Neo-liberal era ends in 2020, we may
    be able to avert a major civil war (though smaller rebellions may still break out in rural areas). If, somehow, the GOP wins in 2020, we will have another major civil war by 2024.

  55. By “restoration”, BOO means murder and suppression of the weak by the strong. That’s all it ever meant. That’s what a “restoration” is in this context. The counter-revolution where the True Heirs take back what their ancestors stole.

    And if the concept of “safe space” is strictly one of ridicule to you, then you are on his path.

  56. V. Arnold

    “Every record has been destroyed or falsified, every book has been rewritten, every picture has been repainted, every statue and street building has been renamed, every date has been altered…History has stopped. Nothing exists except the endless present in which the party is always right” — George Orwell 1984

    ^ Bruce Wilder

  57. Freedom, what’s that? Our founders limited the franchise because they understood that freedom is impossible without responsibility. That’s Racist Hate Speech now. How many people today have any concept at all of the old idea of liberty? Of those that do, how many will be leading the revolution (hint: zero).

    Yes, it is exactly racist hate speech. I’m glad you recognize that, at least: responsibility itself is an opportunity, denying people responsibility is to deny them freedom, the US founders and other early forms of limited franchise (up to and including absolute monarchy) denied people responsibility in order to deny them freedom, because only the free can take up responsibility.

    It’s a catch-22. The slave cannot be free because she cannot be responsible. She cannot be responsible, because she cannot be free. But why can’t she be responsible? Because she belongs to [insert extraneous classification here].

  58. someofparts

    Here is more Bannon talking about what his departure means.

    This is a nerve-wracking report on the State Department under Trump. Incompetence may not be as harmless as we thought.

    The last link is a post about the game the neoliberal Democrats are playing and the plans they have for the rest of us down the road. Feel free to be grateful.

  59. BW:

    Much of the left apparently feels repulsed by nationalism and patriotism. That is certainly convenient for a cosmopolitan, who benefits from a globalization that delivers despair for the uncomprehending deplorables.

    The nationalism of locally dominant groups is generally repulsive. It is a strategy by which we are divided and ruled. The elite use nationalism to ensure that people are invested in opposition to an external enemy, as well as the external enemy that has become physically internal. That dissipates rage against the misrule of the elite.

    As I suspected, the form of nationalism represented by Trump and Bannon has done absolutely nothing about the policy choices that matter. That’s because it can’t. The only solution to the wage effects of competition from Mexican labour is solidarity with Mexican workers, including those that are deemed “illegal” in the USA.

    What I thought when I saw the news about Charlottesville and the political ranting and attempt at a moral panic was how silly it all is. The neo-Nazi’s are angry people. Maybe because anger feels better than shame. I do not know. Maybe it is cosplay for some of them. I am sure that a mix of motives are in play on the other side too. Antifa is a very, very silly business too though I will allow that they show somewhat better taste in choosing sides. ( I have met some black bloc anarchists and they tend to be really unpleasant people while many espoused racists I have known can be goofily affable and very warm and helpful one on one. So go figure.)

    But, with all the political and economic problems facing this country, this is where you take your stand??!

    And, given the serious deficiencies in public morality demonstrated in the country’s policy, domestic and foreign, what is it that you seek to change institutionally and what is your strategy for persuading others to support that change?

    In a word: YES. This is where your apparent iconoclasm goes completely off the rails. These things you seem to dismiss as cosmetic matter. The neo-Nazis marching there may seem like silly people to you, and they are — but the issue they raise is deadly serious, existential, when they shout “You/Jews will not replace us!” The emotion that underlies that shout matters, it deeply conditions the possible responses to the “political and economic conditions facing the country.”

  60. someofparts

    “Keep your eye on the big picture. Picture keeps getting bigger.” – Ani DiFranco

    A really fresh perspective from Edroso –

  61. VietnamVet

    The Confederate Memorials were put up in two waves; first after Reconstruction as part of the acceptance in the North and South of the Lost Cause fable to reunify the nation and later as a reaction to the Civil Rights movement. The razing of the memorials demeans American soldiers who fought on either side and confirms of the deplorable status of the lower classes; as if the rising maternal child birth deaths and lowered life expediency weren’t enough. GOP and Democrat identity politics is racist at its heart and the primary purpose is to inflame ethnic conflicts to accelerate the transfer of wealth upwards to global Brahmins.

    Steve Bannon identified this and made Donald Trump an accidental President in response. To survive, the President surrounded himself with retired military and Goldman Sachs alumnus; consuls to the American Empire. This will not be enough to withstand the global media/privatized intelligence community coup aimed at him. The only way the Trump Administration could have had two terms is if he restored the rule of law, ended the forever wars and provided jobs at home. Instead, North America will be ripped apart in a gigantic fire sale.

  62. V. Arnold

    August 19, 2017

    Look for a quickening; Charlottesville was an accelerant added to an already smoldering fire.
    Trump is surely not the problem; but a festering boil and symptom, of a worse fate coming soon.
    Bannon, of and by himself, is unimportant; the real power lays low behind the curtain; Oz lives…

  63. Lex

    @realitychecker, it’s always that argument with white nationalists/racists. Obviously history can’t be changed. But since a significant number of white people (I’m guessing you included) can’t even admit that things like slavery or native genocide were bad to the extent that you feel it’s important to honor the history of the Confederacy, you’re also not interested in changing the present or making the future better.

    Nobody’s asking you to change history. You could simply start by admitting your own privilege. Next, try establishing a more just and equitable society for everyone. Hell, recognizing that your ancestors were likely shit upon as ruining this “great nation” when they arrived and not doing so to others would be a good start.

    If nothing else, just stop defending Nazis and white-nationalist racist assholes, because doing so tells the rest of us that you’re one of them.

  64. V. Arnold

    August 19, 2017

    RC is an asshole!

  65. edmondo

    After reading this comment string, I applaud Yves for turning off the comments section at Naked Capitalism.

  66. Ché Pasa

    So with Bannon gone-ish back to Breitbart and Breitbart supposedly engaged in a “War!” against Trump now, who’s left in the White House to defend him? Sarah Huckabee? Kellyann Conway? Stephen Miller? Who? The Kids?

    That’ll go over well.

    Upthread, bruce wilder correctly pointed out that there is in progress a ‘soft coup’ that is essentially installing a military junta to rule, or at least to serve as the executive for standard crony capitalist rule. Trump cannot resist. He really has no interest in resisting military commanders. Brings him back to his glory days at New York Military Academy it does.

    Delegitimizing the presidency as the national executive serves a number of overriding interests of the ruling clique. For one thing, they will never have to contend with a president who has his or her own ideas again. They can simply ignore them. Bonus is the delegitimization of Congress as well. While the courts are being heavily packed with corporatists and rightist reactionaries, I’m sure the Plan includes deligitimization of the courts and ignoring them too.

    We’re entering uncharted territory, and we’re not going to get back what’s lost. A number of people mentioned freedom and liberty up above, but what is it? The always unanswered question is: “Freedom/liberty for whom to do what?”

    The street brawls are theater, don’t forget that. Unfortunately, it’s theater with real dead bodies at the end of the play. Of course, that serves a purpose, too. So far though, none of it touches the ruling class; every bit of it is a struggle among the lower orders.

    Tearing down statues — quite the sport in the former Soviet Empire, and latterly in conquered Iraq — in no way afflicts the fortunate, and the new rulers are not necessarily any better and are often much worse than what went before.

    And so it goes.

  67. Willy

    I eagerly await Peter’s usual ‘if you cant see that Trump is a genius then yer a red queen snowflake’ answer for everything. This should be good.

  68. realitychecker

    There will always be many more thoughtless morons than thoughtful intelligent people. As this thread demonstrates.

    I see a lot of new people declaring what I am, which is fine, except that what they say contradicts everything I have ever written about here. Doesn’t matter; they just have to say they know what I am, and if their views are contradictory, they are not bothered. I am all things to them, as long as those things are derogatory. A Jew and a Nazi sympathizer, no problem. The funny part is, each of these morons thinks I should take the time to unravel all their rantings.

    V. Arnold, thanks for taking time out from ogling the junta-approved child prostitutes where you choose to live to call me an asshole.

    If only stupid people could have an opportunity to feel the contempt they inspire in thoughtful people.

  69. Peter


    Perhaps you can explain why some snowflakes continue to lecture Trump supporters about joining then under-the-bus to share their humiliating permanent position as losers. When the chattering classes actually talk with the Deplorables they find people who understand what is happening and what are the snowflake media lies and agendas.

    You’re telling people who can still think to join the mindless mob of snowflakes as they drive identity wedge issues to social explosion. The Lincoln memorial and his statues are being attacked and I don’t think it’s by Lost Cause Confederates.

    Trump has already driven the ruling class to distraction attacking the free traders, the warmers and the guardians of the administrative state. The business class appear to have been waiting for something like Charlottesville to make their move against Trump’s working class jobs agenda.

    Steve Bannon has escaped the palace returned to his troops and promises to make war on the massed forces of liberal deception and opportunism.

  70. Richard

    “Trump has already driven the ruling class to distraction attacking the free traders, the warmers and the guardians of the administrative state.”

    For a con man to be successful, he needs suckers.

    If you can’t see that he’s done nothing to actually slow down free trade and China’s rise and the disintegration of industrial/post-industrial areas and that as power abhors a vacuum, his massive incompetence actually enables the other power centers of the administrative state/deep state more (the military now feels free to ignore the President and the security agencies now feel free to move against a President), then you are blind.

    I’ve come to the conclusion that suckers like you are willing to trade away your freedom for not only no bread (which Trump actually wants to take away from people like you) but the mere circuses of white grievance performance art.

  71. The Trump-suckers are the snowflakes, lily white crybabies in need of safe places.

  72. wendy davis

    whooosh, this is quite a thread. if i’m getting the kind of revolution a few of you are trying to foment, no…i’d hate to see any of you anywhere near any levers of power.

    but i will offer two things: one is that i’d been musing about charlottesville, and wondering about the old 60s anti-war question: ‘what if they gave a war, and nobody went?’ i wouldn’t have gone to join the antifa, had it even been possible. were i black, who can say?

    the second thing concerns to abject hypocrisy of the amerikan ruling class condemning the nazis and white supremacists. the empire has indeed loved supporting, now arming w/ ‘lethal weapons’, the nazis in ukraine, israeli and its apartheid government, global wars on black and brown people in the name of ‘democracy™ (for the puppet ruling classes), the industrial prison complex, etc., which we’d been discussing at my home website.

    this essay by ajamu baracka likely says it far better: ‘The Story of Charlottesville was Written in Blood in the Ukraine’ by BAR editor and columnist Ajamu Baraka

  73. Diamond and Silk – who have already been mostly de-monetized by Youtube – wanna know “If the Dems and the Left are so offended by these statues, why were they not protesting the removal of them during the Obama administration?”

    twitter screen capture:

    I predict they will soon be locked out of Twitter….

    While Diamond and Silk are on the cute side, and I can’t find it in my heart to criticize their one-sided support of Trump, I lay part of the failure of Trump to hire people who reflected his views on more high profile individuals who support Trump, but refused to hold him accountable. Sean Hannity leaps to mind, whose softball interviews of Trump were so embarrassing, that I mostly couldn’t watch more than 5 minutes of them. Self censorship during a close campaign makes tactical sense, in the earliest phases of government, very little sense.

    I’m familiar with breitbart, but only since last year. I’ve little idea of what it was like under Bannon. If Bannon can energize his breitbart community, and hold Trump more accountable, goood for him. From what I know of it, I’m pretty optimistic about Cenk Uyghur’s Justice Democrats program, which allows for no corporate cash, and aims for a “hostile takeover” of the Democratic Party. If Bannon wants to do more than talk and become a media mogul, and do something more important like start targeting corporatist Republicans (and corporatist Democrats) in primaries, when they’re weakest, with a similar program to Cenk’s, more power to him.

    One of the most pointless things we can witness in the democratic square is when protesters and counter-protesters yell at each other, with zero chance of persuading “the other” to change their minds. (So unlike the OWS peaceful dialogs). Doing essentially the same thing, in cyberspace, will be about as effective in bringing about real change. I hope Bannon is smarter than his apparent lack of success as a member of the Trump Administration would indicate.

  74. zotter

    Oh, the racist fundamentalist base is going to war with the financial moneyed elite with moderate Republicans in the middle via a corrupt WH just waiting to all file to jail?

    *Sound of popcorn popping*

    You don’t say…

  75. BlizzardOfOz

    Right, Mandos, where could those Americans (aka Nazis) have gotten the idea that you/Jews were trying to replace them.

    We replaced you

    Goy, Bye!

  76. Thepanzer

    Kudos to Ian for always leaving the comments open. As other people have said I’m also unhappy with Yves decision to close down comments. Digby went down that path and never recovered. Hopefuly Yves will relent…

    The events in charlotsville need more interaction and dialogue, not less.

  77. wendy davis

    a case in point on the stunning hypocrisy of the ruling class on #charlottesville is the peace prize recipient war-criminal, comprador in chief obomba, who did nothing to the middle and lower classes, especially people of color, but financially ruin them, hoist all ‘profits’ to the 1%, fail to prosecute any banksters, keep his doj from even prosecuting blacks, browns, first americans and others assassinated by police under civil rights rubrics…here is his disgusting post-charlottesville tweet (with a nelson mandela quote). it now has almost 4.5 million ‘likes’.

    good gawd all-friday.

  78. NR


    If you don’t want to be called a Nazi sympathizer, don’t sympathize with Nazis.

    Pretty simple, really. You’d think someone as “thoughtful” as yourself could have figured that out.

  79. NR

    @wendy davis:

    “the second thing concerns to abject hypocrisy of the amerikan ruling class condemning the nazis and white supremacists. the empire has indeed loved supporting, now arming w/ ‘lethal weapons’, the nazis in ukraine, israeli and its apartheid government, global wars on black and brown people in the name of ‘democracy™ (for the puppet ruling classes), the industrial prison complex, etc., which we’d been discussing at my home website.”

    Yes, the condemnations of many Washington elites ring sort of hollow for this reason.

    However, many on the left agree that this is bad, and that Nazis murdering a woman for speaking out against them on the streets of an American city is also bad. It’s not an either/or.

  80. realitychecker

    The most interesting aspect of these discussions, IMO, is that despite both major parties having horrible, unforgivable sins on their recent record, they still have mindless adherents who act like they still have some claim on moral purity.

    That incredible, limitless self-aggrandizing hypocrisy is what I hate most.

    A little honest self-examination would go a long way, but it’s out of fashion these days because it just doesn’t FEEL good. And the feelings of every useless, self-centered idiot count for more these days than the best thoughts of the wisest philosopher.

    It takes some mental discipline to elevate logic above your feelings, but if you can’t do it, you should at least have the humility to STFU.

    Anybody who supports either duopoly party has countless contradictions on their side to account for and justify to themselves. I recommend that you get to it, for it is a huge task, and frankly you are not fit to engage in adult conversation until you have tackled it.

  81. realitychecker

    @ NR

    You are the sloppiest thinker on this thread.

  82. NR


    One doesn’t have to support either major party to realize that Nazis are bad, and people being killed for speaking out against Nazis is also bad.

    Defending that is evidence of a certain kind of thinking, and while it may or may not be sloppy, it is certainly vile.

  83. Peter


    You seem intent on convincing yourself that your projections don’t describe everything you have supported. No one on the right listens to this type of rubbish so you are only preaching to the choir.

    This incident in Virginia set some showflakes hair on fire but there is no growth in their resistance ploy and there is no reason to think there ever will be. Trump faces true resistance only from his own party elite while the Clintonites are noisy but powerless back-benchers.

    It’s telling that many snowflakes were the first to defend the IC and the other corruption in DC so long as they targeted Trump so again you seem to be trying to excuse your on ilk’s behavior.

  84. Debbie Lusignan, the “Sane Progressive” on youtube, has weighed in with “Bannon Driven Out by Media in Service of War Agenda, the Ultimate Hate” @ Like many youtubers, Debbie can be a little long winded, but I like her passion and integrity.

  85. Hugh

    As this thread demonstrates, if you cast racism and treason in bronze, it becomes history and sacrosanct. This is reminiscent of Southerners back in the day who would wax nostalgic and rail against “outsiders” who criticized the Southern Way of Life. I mean how unfair and intrusive, except that what they meant by the Southern Way of Life was Jim Crow and segregation.

    The N*zis and white supremacists in Charlottesville were not protesting about history. History was just the white sheet they wrapped their shit in. They were there to promote and defend racism. And what Trump, Bannon, and many on this thread are doing is the same: wrapping their racist shit up in appeals to history and criticizing the rest of us for saying their shit still stinks.

  86. wendy davis

    @ NR. i know that this comment thread is fraught w/ suspicions as to hidden identity personifications or close to that. no, it’s not an either/or, and yes, what i’d said above as to ‘not showing up for the war’ certainly included thoughts of heather heyer’s assassination by a deranged nazi/klansperson, and a score of critical injuries as well, but also by earlier wars’ with the ‘united right’ or whatever they umbrella under. (some they they’re not all deranged on this thread’, but that their fear about becoming the minority color in 2045 is ‘well-grounded’. fuck that racialist (at the very minimum) rubbish!

    a southern commenter at my home website aid that antifa = the alt left; ach, so many labels tend to vex me. that said, i do hope, wish, that many of them understand, or learn to understand that the empire’s ruling class has long been, and supported, white supremacy. i’ve followed police state murders since albuquerque, then onto black lives, indian lives matter, black august radicalism, and am clear that this is a white supremacist nation, built on the blacks of first american genocide and slavery.

    so for me, the hysteria from michael moore and his brethren on trump having equated robert e. lee w. george washington, i say fine, tear down his statues, jefferson’s…and others. the ‘american revolution’ was of course, not about taxation’ so much as king george wanting to end slavery in the UK, and in the colonies.

    as an aside, i’ll not bring what one racialist ‘revolutionary’ on this thread has characterized ‘wendy’s world’.

  87. guess my last comment was too long. it’s in moderation, as so often happens; and there wasn’t one link in it, i swear!

  88. realitychecker

    There are no principles, only feelings for you guys.

    So, you love women and you love the Islamists who subjugate them and mutilate their genitalia.

    You love gays, and you love the Islamists who throw them off of roofs.

    And never a word of criticism or a shred of insight. No self-examination ever. Not ever. And these are just the two easiest contradictions in your addled minds that I could point out.

    But it all ‘feels’ right to you.

    So, I really don’t give a shit what you feel. I can’t respect anything about you. I only respect people who can think as well as feel.

  89. Peter

    The free speech gathering in Boston ended quickly in the face of ugly Soros goons ready for conflict. The demonstrators were clear about distancing themselves from even the white nationalists but that didn’t matter to the antifas.

    As I predicted earlier when there were no Deplorables to attack the antifa immediately began throwing urine and stones at the cops who were there to protect them. The cops begged for calm but arrests are mounting.

  90. different clue


    I’ve been away on vacation and come back to find that Naked Capitalism has turned its comments all the way off. Really? Later tonight, I will go there and see for myself. I was going to run some experiments in sneaking back on there under another name because why should I honor the “keep off my blog” desires of someone who lacks the honor to say “keep off my blog” to my face right there on their own blog in front of everybody? Now it looks like the concept of experiments is moot. . . . if commenting has indeed been turned off.

    If they are still off, I will have to say . . . man that was fast. Digby moved way slower than that.

    That kind of swift and easy recourse to censorship in the face of insufficient worshipfulness towards the pet biases and fashions of the left wing sitekeepers will help to explain why The Left will never expand beyond its own smelly little ghetto.

    Ah well . . . at least the Ian Welsh blog still allows itself and its commenters free to run amok outside the ghetto walls.

  91. different clue


    A quick visit to NaCap reveals that the comments are switched off only on Charlottesville-related subjects. They are described as being still on for all other and previous posts. So that is different and narrower than what you appeared to be describing as a general disabling of comments altogether.

    Given the high level of emotion and venting ( and probably follow-on trolling) the Charlottesville-events have led to on various blog threads and elsewhere, it seems understandable that she might want to switch off a river of sewage running through her threads on this subject.

    So I will still get to run my experiments to see whether I have been secretly stealth-banned or not.

  92. Cagliostrowned

    Trump is Carter (hopefully).

    In terms of terms served, possibly. However, Corey Robin has done a good job over the past few months of showing that Carter actually exercised power, which is what alienated him from his party. Trump is weaker by far, save in the (still potentially disastrous, long-term) area of court appointments.

    How many people today have any concept at all of the old idea of liberty?

    As David Hackett Fischer showed in Albion’s Seed, there were (at least) four not really compatible “old ideas of liberty”. It doesn’t take a rocket scienctist to intuit that you’re probably a fan of the one championed by the old planters: liberty for me and none for thee.

    V. Arnold, thanks for taking time out from ogling the junta-approved child prostitutes where you choose to live to call me an asshole.

    Everything else aside, this tired/tiresome shtick is why I think RC ought to be banned.

    So, you love women and you love the Islamists who subjugate them and mutilate their genitalia.
    You love gays, and you love the Islamists who throw them off of roofs.


  93. NR


    “I can’t respect anything about you.”

    The respect of a racist Nazi sympathizer matters not one iota to me. I suspect it’s the same for others here, but I’ll let them speak for themselves.

  94. realitychecker

    @ DC

    Earlier, all comment threads at NC were closed. She had a notice up to that effect.

  95. realitychecker

    @ Cag

    You are banned. For being a moron.

    What a wonderful world it would be if we could all silence everyone we disagreed with.

    Here you are lol-ing about gays being thrown off roofs and women having their clitoris cut off. I guess you like honor killings as well.

    Maybe you are just ignorant about what happens in the world.

  96. realitychecker

    @ Cag

    Since you sympathize with this barbaric behavior, you must be a misogynist and a homophobe.

    That’s how it works in your world, isn’t it?

  97. Cagliostrowned

    RC, you’re being more of a dipshit than usual. The left I see, as opposed to the one that exists in your head, opposes both gays being tossed off of buildings and female genital mutilation. See, they know that being “muslim” doesn’t obligate you to do that stuff, and the muslims they see being persecuted in their countries (and a lot of the ones being blown up for no reason at all) are not the same as the ones doing those terrible things.

    I don’t want you banned for your idiocy, I want you banned because I’m sick and tired of seeing you drag up the absolutely irrelevant to anything “child sex” thing whenever V. Arnold dares to make a comment.

  98. @ NR: i did respond to you a few hours ago, but my comment is still in moderation. it was too long, i reckon.

  99. realitychecker

    @ Cag

    Some Muslims do it, some keep quiet about it and enable it. Why is the left so silent about it? The answer is, because political advantages mean more than principle.

    But if you can make such fine distinctions, why can’t you see that defending the principle of the First Amendment is not the same as liking those who are relying on it? As a Jew, I’d be happy to kill Nazis; as a lawyer, I understand the need to defend them. Tomorrow, it could be you that gets silenced, and I would defend you, too. I’d even defend that idiot NR, if the First Amendment required it. And the courts are clear that the protection is there for even the most vile.

    I recall when the left was all about free speech It was all we had, and we used it to the max.

    What happened? How did we get to where we prevent others, even vile others as we used to be considered the vile others, from speaking by using violence against them?

  100. Ghostwheel

    Have to side with Realitychecker, Metamars, and Peter on this one. Antifa are not heroic minded “counter-protestors.” Their record of violence and incitement is well known. In some of the pictures I saw, there were communist symbols among them, the hammer-and-sickle, the red fist, and so forth. For myself, really not interested in going the Bolshevik route.

    Obviously, Antifa is being funded and directed with and for a purpose of some kind.

    Meanwhile, every time there’s an Islamic terror attack, we’re told not to become “Islamaphobic,” it’s only those few disgruntled radicals over there, not Islam itself. On the other hand, one guy is driven to violence by Antifa thugs, and suddenly an entire nationalist movement is pilloried.

    Now the last nationalist in the White House is done for.


  101. NR


    “On the other hand, one guy is driven to violence by Antifa thugs, and suddenly an entire nationalist movement is pilloried.”

    Yes, the guy who drove his car into a crowd of people and killed a woman was just a poor innocent victim. Antifa *made* him do it, really; it’s not like he had any choice in the matter whatsoever.

    Spare me. It’s really sad how low you guys will stoop to justify violence against people you hate.

  102. NR


    So you just have an unconditional love for the First Amendment, and yet you also believe that only white journalists are capable of exercising its freedoms properly (or at least, the “freedom of the press” part).

    Somehow that makes me doubt that the pure and unconditional love for the First Amendment that you espouse is sincere.

  103. realitychecker

    @ NR

    You really are a very, very special kind of idiot. Definitely uneducable.

  104. NR


    As I said, your opinion of me could not possibly matter less.

    But your statements in these comments have given a great deal of insight into the kind of person you are. And it’s ugly, to say the least.

  105. marym


    Police estimate: 50 people at the white supremacist rally, 30-40K counter-protesters, 27 arrests [arrest update from later BPD tweet = 33)

    “But Boston Police Commissioner William Evans said that “99.9% of the people here were [here] for the right reason, and that’s to fight bigotry and hate.” ”

    One of the “mounting” arrests was for a guy in a maga hat with a gun

    Also, there’s video:
    “Police rally at the statehouse, where protesters arrive in the hundreds, accusing one officer of swinging wildly on peaceful protesters.”
    “As riot police arrive in military vehicles, one protester takes the bullhorn and de-escalates, rallying everyone for peaceful protest.”

  106. realitychecker

    @ marym

    And after the righties left, some antiifas threw urine bombs onto the police that were there to keep it peaceful. Who is to blame for that?

    One idiot in a car is being used repeatedly to define the entire Charlottesville crowd.

    One idiot.

    Why does not the same rule apply when one idiot, or a few, on the lefty-favored side behave badly?

    The inability to apply the rules and judgments even-handedly is why nobody gives the left any credibility anymore, and its a damn shame, because regular folks suffer for it, and they are the ones I care about. All regular, decent folks.

    Tribalism is what requires these differential judgments. Tribalism sucks.

    Reciprocity is the key to civilized human interaction. Nobody should be trusted who applies different rules to their in-group than they apply to an outsider to their in-group.

    But that is what we have devolved to. And it’s going to kill us.

  107. realitychecker

    @ NR

    “Somehow that makes me doubt that the pure and unconditional love for the First Amendment that you espouse is sincere.”

    Fine, special idiot, then I guess you won’t mind if I doubt that you are human. Maybe a chimpanzee with a keyboard, but I doubt your humanness.

    Hey, this is fun, isn’t it, moron?

  108. NR


    I’ve said repeatedly that I don’t care one bit what a racist Nazi sympathizer like you thinks of me. Do you have a problem with reading comprehension?

  109. NR


    “One idiot in a car is being used repeatedly to define the entire Charlottesville crowd.”

    “Hey guys, a bunch of people marched through the streets wearing Klan outfits, waving Nazi flags, and shouting things like ‘Dylan Roof is a hero,’ but only one of them actually killed someone, so that means the rest of them are a bunch of swell people!”

  110. Peter


    I’m sure most of these anti-free speech/Trump demonstrators are relatively peaceful for Bostonians. But if they rub shoulders with the Soros militias they will get some stink on themselves no matter what the local politicians spin about their voter’s virtues.

    As RC wrote you can’t have it one way, these people behaved like a mob to shut down a peaceful non-extremist demonstration even if they didn’t all knock down old women carrying Amerikan flags.

    If people continue to follow antifa’s lead and direction in these demonstrations they are joining a political ploy that has little to do with racism or Confederate statues.

  111. Ché Pasa

    I think we have the answer to the question: What would Trump have to do for NC’s proprietors to stop defending him?

    Answer: Charlottesville and Trump’s absurd, weak and contradictory responses.

    Yves shut down comments because too many of Trump’s defenders in the commentariat not only continued to defend him, they defended neo-nazis and white supremacists.

    Lie down with dogs…

  112. marym

    White supremacy can only be achieved through violence. People who embrace that cause, who march under that banner accept those terms, even if they didn’t personally run over anyone last week.

    ((30-40,000)-32) people committed to peaceful protest, who prepare for it, in some cases train for it, try to escalate problems when they occur, aren’t tarred with anything the antifa may or may not have done, except by the hostile efforts of people who want them so tarred.

  113. wendy davis

    @ NR: i’ll divide my earlier comment into haves in hope that it gets in this time. it really wasn’t long at all, so i dunno whassup.

    i know that this comment thread is fraught w/ suspicions as to hidden identity personifications or close to that. no, it’s not an either/or, and yes, what i’d said above as to ‘not showing up for the war’ certainly included thoughts of heather heyer’s assassination by a deranged nazi/klansperson, and a score of critical injuries as well, but also by earlier wars’ with the ‘united right’ or whatever they umbrella under. (some they theyr’re not all deranged on this thread’, but that their fear about becoming the minority color in 2045 is ‘well-grounded’. fuck that racialist (at the very minimum) rubbish!

    pt II follows, and thanks, marym.

  114. Peter


    These thirty thousand protesters overwhelmed and frightened off a much smaller peaceful and non-extremist demonstration. That is mob action that at least threatened violence.

    The mounted Dallas police are trying to break up another mob action at a Confederate cemetery there. The battle cry is ‘tear them down’ referring to the statuary there, perhaps they will desecrate some graves also.

    These mobs are beginning to remind me of frenzied book-burners assured that their antifa identity will excuse any excess zeal or injury.

  115. V. Arnold

    August 19, 2017

    Appreciate your comment, but alas; to no avail.
    RC is a passive/aggresive, OCD, poster who cannot control himself.
    He attempts to dominate Ian’s threads with his self regarded wonderfulness.
    That alone should be a tell. With this exception, I ignore the pest.
    Sure as hell, he’ll post another junta/child sex obsession comment, ad infinitum

  116. realitychecker

    @ V. Arnold

    You’re the victim, even though you called me an asshole before I said anything to you. Do you think you should get to attack me, unprovoked, without consequence? Never gonna happen.

    GFY, you obnoxious POS.

    And then, there are always the child prostitutes that you so carefully located yourself within easy reach of . . .one might wonder why, one might wonder how you can be so comfortable surrounded by that human misery, and one might make a good guess why.

    Choosing to live in the sex tourism capital of the world, ruled by a military junta, and you have the nerve to constantly reach back here with pompous, sweeping criticisms.

    But you don’t have the balls to try and protest any of the human misery right there where you live. I think we can make some likely assumptions about you.

    What a cowardly, hypocritical waste of skin you are. And anytime you choose to poke at me, I will always be happy to remind you of what a lowlife you are.

    Feel free to play the victim every time that happens. Maybe you’ll learn someday.

  117. V. Arnold

    RC; you’re not a well person. I wasn’t going to respond, but changed my mind; for the last time I’ll address your pathology!
    You know full well I came to Thailand as a CAD design and production engineer for an American toy company.
    I live closer to Burma than the disgusting sexpots that do in fact exist because of your beloved U.S.A..
    Remember the Vietnam atrocity committed by your beloved country? Hmmm…?
    Pattaya was the R & R spot for the U.S. Soldiers, to exploit the poor women from Issarn, and yes, children, and any other sick proclivity of the Usian soldiers who came here for their pleasure; just one more destruction of a poor and vulnerable people.
    You should be proud, and apparently are; of what YOU have accomplished lo, the last 42 years, in Thailand.
    The junta seems far more agreeable than the reign of the Shinawatra’s to most Thai’s I know.
    But, your unbridled ignorance of country, culture and language, does show you for the ignorant sot you are.
    And, che’ surprise; I can speak Thai, which further expands my understanding of this wonderful culture and people.
    So, kindly take your sick shtick and shove it, way, up your ass!

  118. realitychecker

    You keep saying good-bye, but then you keep being present lol.

    I just enjoy jerking your chain, because it is so easy, and you so deserve it, for being so repetitively obnoxious about your contempt for America, and for pretending to be able to do psychological diagnosis from the other side of the world.

    You’ve repeatedly opened attacks on me here and at Wendy’s blog (which is cowardly and very bad form), then you play the victim when I come back at you, and then you call me “passive-aggressive.” Projection, much? You define passive-aggressive.

    Your junta approves of and benefits from the child sex industry where you are comfortable. Check your own morality, ass hole, before you point fingers at America. America has many faults, and we agree about them, but your comfort level with the lowest forms of child exploitation where you live undermine your standing to be so contemptuously critical of what we have here.

    Now you can demonstrate your own “OCD” if you wish.

    Trust me, if you never mention me, I will never mention you, because as a point of honor I never strike the first blow, but I do counterattack. That’s how I deal with sneaks and bullies. And especially sneaky bullies like you.

  119. realitychecker

    @ marym

    You say white supremacy can only be achieved through violence, but that is true of many things (like this country’s creation was, like a people’s revolution would be, and like the counter-demonstrator’s objectives seem to be), and, more to the point, the issue here is not about the white supremacists being violent, but only about whether they get to have free speech.

    I know you to be a thoughtful person, and would hope that you can agree that there are many complex issues raised by these events, and that we are doing a dismal job so far of reasoning our way thru them and talking them out.

    The dishonesty and inaccuracy and bias of so many people is glaringly obvious, and the dishonesty is the worst part of it. To me, lying is the ultimate hate speech, but so many are buying into lies for supposed political advantage. It seems that politics has become the ultimate arena for liars to play their games in. Nothing new about that, but when we approach the extremes, as now, it becomes a very serious problem, and threatens our basic freedoms.

    I think what’s going on now is extremely serious, and deserves scholarly dissection, not just shouting labels at each other. I would expect you to be on the good side of that discussion, if we ever get to it.

  120. Ghostwheel

    >>>>>Yes, the guy who drove his car into a crowd of people and killed a woman was just a poor innocent victim. Anita *made* him do it, really; it’s not like he had any choice in the matter whatsoever.

    He didn’t drive his car into a crowd, he drove it into the rear end of another car. The woman that got killed was, reportedly, in front of that other car.

    Then he was attacked by armed Antifa “counter-protestors,” and presumably thought it better to back out of there before they pulled him from his car and killed him:

    Clearly, if the goal had been to commit mass murder, he could have swerved to either side and truly hit the crowd. (If he had been a jihadist virgin-seeker, that’s what would have happened.)


    1- Why did the driver accelerate his vehicle down the street in the first place, so as to hit the car in front of him? Could he have been in a panic, and fleeing from a mob further up the road?

    2- Why was the car in front of him blocked by so many Antifa “counter-protestors” in the first place?

    3- Why did the Antifa “counter-protestors” attack his car after the collision? My reaction would have been to see if everyone was okay, and to call paramedics.

    But never mind the film clip. Never mind the questions. Never mind an investigation.

    Lefties are always in the right, nationalists are always in the wrong.

    Guilty, guilty, guilty, guilty, guilty!


    Used to be a lefty myself … sort of.

    More and more of us are getting red-pilled. Keep it up, you clowns.

  121. Ghostwheel

    If only there had been a helicopter flying around, monitoring events from above, then maybe we’d have a better perspective on what actually happened….

    Oh, wait!


    Never mind.

    Who wants to waste time with actual detective work anyway? What a grind! Witch hunts are so much more invigorating!

  122. In 1847, in the hill country of Texas, a remarkable event took place. German settlers made a peace treaty with the Comanches. A small monument to peace is located at the spot. Meusebach-Comanche Treaty

  123. Charlie

    Ian, we chatted on twitter a while back when I mistakenly took one of your tweets to mean you wouldn’t be writing.

    I’m glad to see you still are, as your insights are needed. And yes, Bannon was the only anti-imperial one left. So now Trump will follow the neo-liberals and act “presidential.”

  124. marym


    The 30-40,000 were committed to peaceful protest. The tactics of the handful of antifa are generally perceived by people with that mindset as being dangerous to them as well.

    The city gave the original protesters a permit and a lovely downtown location. They had police escorts to and from their rally point. The counter-protesters were kept behind a fence, at a distance. Cops wouldn’t let counter-protesters carry signs on cardboard(!) sticks lest the original protesters think they were real sticks.

    That the original protesters weren’t able to muster more than a handful to their cause, under such well-protected conditions, isn’t the fault of the 30-40,000.

    I haven’t looked at reports from Dallas yet, but I looked at plenty from Boston. Just people walking, talking, playing music, and gathering to exercise their own right to speak and assemble. Some shouting or shoving, de-escalated by the counter-protesters themselves. Two reports of counter-protesters helping escort original protesters to their safe space.

    No angry mobs. Not even the police made that claim.

    The little nazis came to Charlotte in greater numbers, and armed. They, not the counter-protesters, created a situation for which there can be legitimate discussion as to whether violent resistance is appropriate. But in Boston they did it with numbers.

  125. marym

    Correcting Charlotte to Charlottesville

  126. realitychecker

    @ marym

    “They had police escorts to and from their rally point. The counter-protesters were kept behind a fence, at a distance.”

    Oh, Mary, the papers are reporting that the crowd of antis “swarmed” the police as they tried to evacuate the few dozen righties, and pelted them with rocks and urine.

    Pelted the POLICE!!!!

    Please revise. You can’t get a way with blithely misrepresenting or excusing that.

    Please revise.

  127. realitychecker

    @ marym

    This is actually very interesting and educational.

    When I did my original reading at 9 this morning (New York Times, then Drudge Report as usual), I saw an account that was very strong that the crowd “swarmed” the police as they were trying to escort the few dozen righties out, and threw rocks and urine at the police, as I noted above. I thought I saw it in the Times, but was really only sure that I saw it.

    Now, as I went to get the link for you, I find the Times reporting the same thing, but toned down via a police quote, with the essential facts still there. So I went to Drudge to find what I remembered from earlier, and found the ABC write-up, which practically ignored that aspect of the story.

    But I did find an actual photo that showed the moment, and it was indeed a “swarm.”

    Interesting, no? Hard to trust the corporate media, when their obvious biases are so enabled by their ability to edit their online accounts so easily.

    Still, they can’t completely cover up that the police were at least blocked and subjected to pushing, rocks, and urine from the anti-protesters as they tried to peacefully remove the righties.

    So, if we give a damn about the truth, let’s stop pretending that the anti-protesters are blameless and peaceful, because many are not, and the guilt by association game should be played even-handedly, if we must indulge in it at all (which I aver we should NOT.)

  128. realitychecker


    Washington Post account doesn’t mention it AT ALL.

    Know your sources, everybody out there has an interest in lying to you and trying to manipulate your mind.

    Truth is being eclipsed just like the sun. Except that the sun is only a one-day event, while the media’s truth eclipse is perpetual. (sigh)

  129. marym

    rc 1:

    I was disputing your drawing of a parallel between two situations I don’t consider equivalent.

    If one has an objective which can only be achieved by violence, and violence occurs, one can’t separate oneself from that tactic.

    If one has an objective which one believes can be achieved without violence, and some other group of people chooses to use violence in furtherance of that objective, one can consider oneself, and should be considered by others, as separate from that tactic.

    rc 2:

    Police aren’t reporting that “the” crowd was a crowd of antifas, nor that “the” crowd pelted them. They said, and on-the-ground reports substantiate, that “the” crowd was mostly peaceful. As far as I can see, I didn’t excuse or misrepresent any pelters. I actually linked to an article where the police made the claim while they said 99.9% of “the” crowd was peaceful.

    This has degenerated into absurdity. What should non-violent protesters do, beyond being non-violent themselves, making their case for non-violence in discussions, trying to de-escalate when they can, and putting up with getting accused of something they don’t support and didn’t do?

    Note to management: I misspelled my email in my first post. Corrected here. Not trying to mask anything. Apologies.

  130. NR


    First, I have to say it’s amusing how your account of the events is changing. First, you were saying that James Fields was “driven to violence by Antifa thugs.” Now, you’re saying that he wasn’t even being violent, he was just trying to escape Antifa and the whole thing was just a tragic accident, really. Do try to at least keep your bullshit consistent, eh?

    And second, yes, I’m sure that the man who marched in support of an ideology responsible for mass murder and attempted genocide was just a humble, peace-loving individual. The whole thing must be Antifa’s fault, since James Fields isn’t the slightest bit violent and would never hurt anyone given the choice.

    Oh, wait. That’s not true at all:

    But your concern about “witchhunts” is noted. Fields will get a trial and due process of law, and the truth will come out, no matter how much Nazis like you try to cover it up.

  131. Peter


    This odd little private treaty sits in the middle of a 50 year war between the Texicans and all the bands of the Comanche tribe. It’s possible that the recent adoption of the Walker Colt revolver by the Texicans along with the Rangers adopting Indian cavalry battle tactics may have convinced the Comanche’s to treat with this small group moving into the heart of their territory.

    After the Civil War the US military used Buffalo Soldiers to starve out and round up the remaining Comanche and send them to the Nations. This was a sad end to a short lived horse culture that saw a paleolithic hunter-gatherer society transformed into mounted marauders with the most effective light cavalry of their time.

  132. Willy

    That powerless losers are joining questionable causes out of confused desperation is troubling, though it’s probably just been the way of things throughout recorded human history. I’d think the matter of degree to which this happens on a cultural level is a direct reflection of the quality of the prevailing powers that be.

    And without Bannon, Trump is just more of the same old shit, plus a bunch of narcissistic stupid.

  133. realitychecker

    @ marym

    Just to be clear, I don’t question your good faith in this discussion, not one bit; there are many I cannot say that about, but you are not one of them.

    My point I have been trying to make is a simple one: When there are some bad actors on both sides, it is unacceptable to demonize one side and ‘saintify’ the other. Every player makes choices that contribute to the situation, and each remains responsible for every one of those choices. Any therapist would say the same thing.

    It is not in dispute that a bunch of anti-protesters tried to prevent the police from safely evacuating the righties, and were violent and disgusting in that action. The variations in the various accounts do not dispute those facts, but instead they reveal the extent to which media bias is allowed to color what should be factual descriptions. (The reporters all want to be political players these days, but don’t have the guts or the persistence to become politicians.)

    I think it is important for intelligent people of good faith to acknowledge that, and to resist succumbing to it. And that is and will always be my position. I think you know enough of my history to accept the truth of that.

    There are so many complex issues that will arise now from these events, and I honestly don’t know where I will end up standing on all of them, but I do know that I would love it if the intelligent among us can be very careful about how we conduct those conversations, and strive for accuracy and thoughtfulness. E.g. When we make an argument, try turning it around and seeing what would happen if it got used against one of our faves.

    It’s easy for me to say I hate these white supremacists and I love the First Amendment and an unfettered marketplace of ideas, and that I also believe in the Second Amendment as well as the right to self-defense generally. It is where these all get mixed up together that the analysis becomes very complicated and difficult. And it doesn’t make it any less complex when people constantly try to move the goalposts. Free speech turns into “no hate speech,” turns into “your speech is actually violence”; suddenly, people feel justified in reacting violently to any speech they don’t like.

    We’re in a crazy place, and we’ll need all the good minds working together, carefully and in good faith, to work our way out of it. If we ever can.

  134. Ché Pasa

    (Tiki)Torchlight parade. “Blood and Soi-ull! Blood and Soi-ull!” “You/(Jews) will not replace us!” Nazi and neo-Nazi and white supremacist flags, emblems, chants and symbols galore, surrounding and violently attacking student anti-fascists gathered around the statue of Thomas Jefferson on the campus of the University of Virginia.

    None of this happened according to the Nazis and Nazi-defenders littering the white rightist fringe and many of the online comment sections, or if it did happen, it didn’t matter. It was just blowing off steam. Nothing to get alarmed over. Boys will be boys, eh/
    Yes, they will. Juveniles waving around swastikas because why not? Free speech!!

    If that’s all it was, who would care? No one, not really. But it wasn’t just a bunch of boisterous delinquents having a good time shouting slogans and waving flags. Nope.

    A number of people were injured at the statue fracas, and one had a stroke after being struck with a tiki-torch.

    The Nazis and would-be Nazis were the aggressors as they would be many times the following day, after their permit was withdrawn and a state of emergency was declared.

    Agressing against Commies is what Nazis do. Even to the point of killing the Commies. All the opposition to white-rightist/Nazis are by definition “Commies.” Including Antifa, which is a wide-spread anti-fascist movement, not a group, a movement which has an objective of preventing the fringe of fascists and Nazis from growing and spreading.

    This is all stuff that’s known or easy to figure out, but it’s stuff that Nazi-defenders and equivocators can’t deal with. They whine and pretend and obfuscate and deny. They lie. They hide.

    It’s not complicated, it’s straightforward. There are no good Nazis, nothing to discuss with them rationally or otherwise.

  135. realitychecker

    @ Che

    Well, in fairness, the Communists don’t have that great a track record, either. They may have worse numbers.

    I detest both groups. And anyone who starts violence. No excuses in my book.

    But I would still allow both to speak without being violent.

    At any given moment, the bad guy is the one who first resorts to violence.

    Not feeling-hurting, but actual physical contact-type violence.

    In the present situation, again, I think the lefties may have the worse numbers. But it doesn’t matter who has more, it matters which individuals do the violent actions, and those should be punished. (Or killed, wouldn’t bother me much, if the criteria for self-defense were honored. Not much loss to the world to lose folks from the extremes of either of those groups.)

  136. Charlie

    RC, “suddenly people feel justified in reacting violently to any speech they don’t like.”
    Seems people have been given the green light.

  137. realitychecker

    @ Charlie


    Rubio is the guy you wish you’d beaten up in grammar school lol.

    However, there will probably wind up being twenty Dem political whores who echo that sentiment for every Rethug political whore before this is over.

    We haven’t even heard from Al Sharpton yet. 🙁

  138. Charlie

    Agreed. Every political hack will be shouting that to kingdom come to keep their power over everyone else. Sickening.

  139. NR

    Won’t somebody please think of the poor Nazis????

  140. Peter


    I doubt there are enough good minds or that people will listen to them to have any effect on this crazy place were heading into. The mob is restless and empowered as we see them show their true colors parroting lies and damning anyone who resists with the White supremacist brand. Even the less hostile seem to deeply desire to follow this slippery virtue signaling slope to its liberal authoritarian roots.

    Look at what brought these snowflakes out by the tens of thousands the KKK and the neo-Nazis. The largest neo-Nazi group has 400 members in the whole US. The Klan is larger with about 5000 members but all these white extremist groups have been infiltrated by the FBI and are closely monitored minimal threats. The other concerned conservatives at these demonstrations aren’t a threat to anyone unless you’re a snowflake voter who can’t handle defeat.

    The other side of this conflict is being led more and more by the so called antifa or Black Bloc as they were known in their early militia actions. Back then they only broke windows now they break heads. We don’t know who these people are or what they look like without their masks and only two have identified themselves that I know of. These were two young professional women who don’t fir the male militia appearance of the original core group. They are trying to get something violent and disruptive started. The attacks on the cops is begging for an overreaction which would drive more people into the streets.

    There aren’t enough white extremists to even begin a real Civil War and most conservatives don’t seem interested in street fighting with piss bombers. The best they and their NWO backers can hope for is growing unrest and disruption of law and order which could have serious domestic and foreign effects.

  141. realitychecker

    @ Peter

    One thing I know for sure is that the Masters are laughing all the way to the bank at the spectacle playing out, will take advantage of this distraction to get away with some very onerous stuff, and don’t care at all if all the parties we’re discussing start killing each other en masse–they will just use it as an excuse to put the finishing touches on their police-state-serving-the-corporate-oligarchy wet dream model.

    Freedom—it was nice while it lasted.

    The only (very small) consolation will be watching some of the local a-holes implode as they are forced to realize that a handful of powerless “Nazis” were the wrong thing to be focusing their energies on.

  142. Hugh

    So how does one reconcile Trump’s support of neo-N*zis with his loony tunes strong support of Israel? How do his neo-N*zi supporters reconcile this? How does Bannon reconcile his support of neo-N*zis with the Mercer family who are the money behind Breitbart? Inquiring minds would like to know.

  143. V. Arnold

    August 21, 2017

    One doesn’t reconcile any of it.
    To reconcile any of it is to accept it; which I do not.
    It’s Sophist logic; the oldest trick in the book.
    Step away; clear the baffels and look afresh at the chaos…

  144. realitychecker

    @ Hugh

    When logic seems to fail, check your premises!!!!

    Hint: Start with the first one, which is STUPID!

  145. Robert David Steele – ex-CIA guy who ran a false flag op (completely non-violent, so he says) has analyzed a bunch of terrorist and violent incidents here in the US and says that most of them are false flags or hoaxes. In “Vivas, Robert David STEELE. False Flag Attacks: A Tool of the Deep State (Trump Revolution Book 12) ” he says, “As a former spy who is intimately familiar with CIA’s history of mis-deeds in the USA, I will testify that the term “conspiracy theorist” was coined by CIA to marginalize “truthers” who questioned the Warren Commission Report on the assassination of John F. Kennedy. As we now know, “conspiracy theorists” have proven to be right in over thirty (30) cases since then.”

    In his latest interview, @ , Steele judges Charlottesville to also be a false flag (using his broader definition of “false flag” as “not what it seems.”) Unfortunately, IMO, he over-states the case, given his lack of hard evidence for, example, his claims about the total extent of paid actors playing the role of Nazis.

    What does this have to do with Bannon? Steele has repeatedly tried to get through to Trump, and one of his main points was the Trump needed a large counter-intelligence operation. (Here I make an assumption, viz., that counter-intelligence should have not only been directed against foreign actors, but also the Deep State.) Steele reports that BANNON WAS ONE OF THE PEOPLE WHO STEERED TRUMP AWAY FROM STEELE.

    This is one reason I can’t respect Bannon’s “strategy” bona fides. AFAICT, Bannon not only did nothing to anticipate and counteract Trumps #1 enemy, he stupidly obstructed Trump moving in this direction.

    Now, let’s imagine that Trump had actually created a large counter-intelligence force, and that my assumption that it would also target Trumps #1 enemy – the Deep State – is correct. In this case, not only would both antifah, neo-Nazi and white supremicists be penetrated with “conventional” FBI and intelligence assets, but the Charlottesville protestors and counter-protestors would also be penetrated with counter-intelligence assets. Of these white hat type spies: Let’s assume 15 groups of 6 people each, 4 of whom would operate as a pack, immersed in the crowds and sticking close, and 2 of whom would operate vehicles, which could accommodate the foot soldiers, and be used to trail cars.

    The goal would be to id the instigators of violence. The guys hiding behind masks have to take them off at some point. At some point, they have to go to sleep, which means you can follow them to a hotel room, safe house, etc. Anybody showing signs of “directing traffic” would be of particular interest. If they drive off, running their license plates should be easy to do, besides following them to wherever.

    What about lots of drones recording the goings-on? Even if not, strictly speaking, legal, given what’s at stake, there should be people willing to do the counter-intelligence version of “civil disobedience”.

    If these sorts of things had been done, by now we’d probably have good EVIDENCE for Deep State actors, which could be turned over to honest people within the FBI for prosecution. Needless to say, Trump’s impolitic use of language re Charlottesville would be less a point of fixation. Instead, we have the ‘privilege’ of looking at the mayor of Charlottesville, giving Trump some of the blame for this, and somehow overlooking his own police department’s massive ‘failure’. (Which is a success, from a false flag point of view.) Trump’s crass language, and a couple of idiotic verbalizations supportive of violence during the campaign, means that yes, one might fairly assign some sliver of blame to Trump. The guy to do this is not, however, the mayor.

    See “Charlottesville mayor: There’s a ‘direct line’ between Trump and white supremacist violence”


    If Bannon wants to redeem himself, he can use breitbart to crowd-source the funding and recruitment for a counter intelligence force. Given the magnitude of his errors, so far, especially considering his position as “strategist”, I’m not holding my breath.

  146. zotter

    “…from a pragmatic Trumpian view…”

    A greater oxymoron I’ve never read.

  147. Peter


    The MOTU’s are responding to the threat of nationalism to their urban globalism NWO plan. They c0ntrol most all the levers of power but are unable to silence those who refuse to live under their Borg like rule. Brexit, European nationalism and especially the rise of the Deplorables with Trump has seen them turn every level of their structure into an attack force. Witch-hunts aimed at Trump are also aimed at people like yourself who are being flamed for enabling the heresy of opposing Big Brother and his minion the little Red Queen.

    Interaction with the local a-holes you mention leads me to believe they don’t care about the repercussions of their actions. They look for instant gratification against their enemies and anyone who doesn’t believe the ends justify the means.

  148. realitychecker

    @ zotter


    Seems to me he “pragmatic-ed” his way into the White House, despite all Establishment attempts to stop him.

    Where have you pragmatic-ed your way into?

    So fucking easy for a nobody to criticize a somebody, ain’t it?

    Nothing more pathetic, though.

  149. realitychecker

    @ Peter

    Exactly right on this one, Peter.

    Fortunately, I learned a long time ago that the planet is mostly populated with people much less intelligent and infinitely less honest than I am, and I just accept that reality the same way I accept that I may step in dog feces whenever I leave my house.

    What saddens me, in all seriousness, is the lunacy of being attacked by people whose interests I am trying to advance, i.e. regular people trying to lead decent lives, because they are more comfortable, for the moment, with their lunacy. And will remain that way, until it’s too late, probably.

    I assume you’ve heard the one about the guy who jumped off the Empire State Building, and as he passed the middle floors was heard to say, “So far, so good.”

    That’s what this state of affairs seems like to me. It’s sad, but ultimately people deserve to suffer the consequences of their bad choices. Evolution doesn’t provide any safe spaces.

  150. BlizzardOfOz

    metamars, it’s good to see someone bringing up the Charlottesville police. What they did was extremely dangerous, and it not only led to a death but inflamed the smoldering (not cold anymore) civil war. There have been violence-free rallies where the police do their job. I hope Trump throws the book at these local police departments, who seem clearly guilty of civil rights violations.

    These rallies attract fringe people with little to lose, but most normal people with jobs and families certainly don’t want to go to war. But if the authorities are themselves fanning the flames then the conflict could spiral out of control.

  151. wendy davis

    dayum, ya gotta love this one: ‘Petition to Label Antifa Terror Group Has 146,000 Signatures So Far’ (it now has 169,750 signatures at the white house petitions page.)

    but yes, while the media is focused on ‘other issues’, the first round of closed-door ‘renegotiations’ of nafta just ended in deep dark badger holes. as with ‘out of nato, out of nafta’ campaign trump, well…not so much. and he’ll address the nation on afghanistan tonight. stay tuned for a new silk road campaign: so many billions/trillions of valuable minerals there to harvest…er…borrow…er…claim.

  152. Ché Pasa

    All resistance to what’s to come is “terrorism” by definition. Including Bannon’s pathetic Breitbart War against The West Wing, or whatever.

    Antifa is not a group, it’s a movement; one does not belong to Antifa, one is anti-fascist and practices anti-fascism.

    We’re well beyond the petitioning phase, eh?


  153. BlizzardOfOz

    Antifa is not a group, it’s a movement; one does not belong to Antifa, one is anti-fascist and practices anti-fascism.

    Lol! That’s some fine hair-splitting. You know the media narrative has broken down when lefty foot soldiers are forced to invent their own spin.

  154. BlizzardOfOz

    ” it’s good to see someone bringing up the Charlottesville police. What they did was extremely dangerous, and it not only led to a death but inflamed the smoldering (not cold anymore) civil war.”

    It certainly seems criminal. And most likely, the decision to suspend police interference, for 2 hours, which enabled the height of the fighting, came from the political level (I’m guessing not just the mayor is guilty, but the governor, also.)

    However, even if you throw these perps behind bars, if there were, in fact, agent proocateurs amongst the protestors (even if not ALL of the Nazis, as Steele is claiming), the Deep State will likely remain unscathed.

    I don’t remember exactly where it was from – I think it was an anti-WTO demonstration in Canada, but……. there was video evidence of a provocateur leaving the crowd, and running into or past a police line. One of the cops pats him on the back. Implying, I suppose, that the police were complicit at that level. This raises the question of was it simply an operation by local cops, or was it (Canadian) Deep State?

    See, this is exactly why you need to ID the provocateurs. You need to at least find out who is paying their bills, or who they are associated with, if you want to have any hope of finding out whether or not they are Deep State assets.

    Sometimes the likeliest official perps ARE purely acting on the local levels. Like the NYC cops who directed mentally disturbed homeless people to camp at Occupy Wall Street at Zuccotti Park. That’s how you get the video of some guy defecating on a car in public, which conservative saps just soak up and blame Occupy, in general. I’m thinking of Devvy Kidd, specifically, who is pretty smart and ethical, but just ASSUMED the OWS open defecator represented OWS, in general.

  155. Speaking of OWS, I used to loathe the Blac Bloc delinquents, who also hid behind masks and tainted OWS, in general, by smashing private property. The “antifa” jackasses remind me of them, even if they also did some good deeds like protected peaceful protestors from Nazis.

    Of course, you wouldn’t NEED the protection of thugs, if the police had done their damn jobs.

  156. Speaking of the governor of Va., I’m half listening to an interview of George Webb, by Eutrice Leid of (progressive radio network), he just mentioned Terry McCauliffe as “mixed up with all of this” via McCabe.

    “This” is the Awan brothers’ scandal…..

  157. wendy davis

    Freedom for some™—it was nice while it lasted.

    when were amerikan blacks, native americans, and the underclass ever ‘free’? certainly not during the past five or more presidential administrations, you can (and will) decide whether or not…under the current president’s surrealistic rule, as in: a re-run of his teevee show.

    and yeah, when the underclass begins to rebel, as always, it will be deemed terrorism, as many sorts of dissidents under obomba’s homeland security apparatus. and remember: constitutional free zones, although judges actually determine what those rights are, don’t they?

    but the sun is dimming here, and the cloud just moved away. extraordinary quality of light. the shimmers should start soon; i’ll try to get out and shiver in the shimmers. (smile)

  158. NR

    “The largest neo-Nazi group has 400 members in the whole US.”

    And half of them comment on this blog, apparently.


  160. Ché Pasa

    As if.

    So somehow all 400 Nazis in the country and 600 of their fellow travelers are induced by Obama/CIA/Hillary to show up in Charlottesville to get beat up and run out of town by thousands of local antifa terrrisss (with the connivance of the Cville polizei, of course). At least they managed to kill a Commie for Trump, yay. (Heather Heyer may she rest in power.)

    Good to know Infowars is on it tho.

    The crybaby Nazis have to have something to hold onto after that debacle. Who will be their Horst Wessel?


  161. Peter


    I don’t know if we can resist such powerful accusation, NR. Where did you learn these devastating tactics, snowflake U?

  162. wendy davis

    no, anti-fascism isn’t monolithic, and I dearly loved this: ‘‘Counter-Protesters Outnumber White Nationalists in Vancouver’, telesur english

    “The far-right rally, organized by “anti-Islam and anti-immigration” groups Worldwide Coalition Against Islam Canada and the Cultural Action Party, drew inspiration from their counterparts in Charlottesville.
    But by mid-afternoon, when their event was to due to start, only a small handful of right-wing protesters were in attendance, while thousands of their opponents continued to pour into Vancouver, with posters, t-shirts and banners displaying messages against racism.” [snip]

    “”Many white folks took front and centre … (while) marginalized (people) were on the outskirts,” Jaye Simpson, an Indigenous activist from the Oji-Cree nation explained. “Most of the signs felt very white and pushed ideas of love curing and fixing everything when direct action and actual allyship will actually change systems and structures.”

    the photos are heartening, but from what i could tell, many in solidarity w/ antifas in c’ville, durham, etc. were quite white.

  163. realitychecker

    @ Che

    “We’re well beyond the petitioning phase, eh?”

    Yes, and quite possibly pushing things into the Second Amendment phase. You know there are lots of people just itching for an excuse to shoot down a mob that is outnumbering and menacing them, and it will be totally legal when they do so in many states, maybe every state.

    I really always gave you credit for being smarter than that, Che.

    I hope we won’t have to watch you whine here when what you are cheering for brings the inevitable result.

  164. wendy davis

    @ Ché Pasa: how about some rudolph hess counter-protests?

    “Around 1,500 demonstrators blocked a march on Saturday of some 700 neo-Nazis from the northern Berlin district of Spandau to a former allied prison for war criminals, where they intended to commemorate Hitler’s deputy, Rudolf Hess. Condemned to lifelong imprisonment at the Nuremberg Trials, Hess committed suicide in the prison thirty years ago, on August 17, 1987.

    The neo-Nazis were ordered to follow certain procedures. However, despite a court order to avoid any glorification of Hess in writing, speech or pictures, they carried a large banner with the Hess citation, “I regret nothing.” The police, who were at the scene with 1,000 officers to seal off the march and protect the right-wing extremists from counter-protesters, did not intervene.

    Instead, police bullied counter-demonstrators and prevented them from reaching the rally in front of the former prison. “We will not tolerate outright blockades and we will prevent them,” the police warned over Twitter. Officers intervened against counter-protesters who blocked the route of the neo-Nazis.”

    don’t you wish you were brilliant as some folks here claim to be? i certainly do.

  165. Ed Shultz (RT) interviews eye witness talk show host about whether the locals supported Trump’s statement about violence coming from both sides. The answer was yes. This guy almost got got into a fight with a BLM dude, but the intervention of a BLM dude from the Bronx, who knew him from the DNC convention last year, prevented that.

    Gee whiz, will #nevertrump’er Mitt Romney now apologize for his blatant lie about one side being 100% responsible for the violence?

    See from 7:56 @

  166. realitychecker

    Trump just got pragmatic.

    It makes more sense to kill dedicated killers than to try and win their hearts and minds.

    Cue the moronic snowflake outrage.

  167. NR

    Huh. Donald Trump said one thing during the election and is doing the exact opposite now, because apparently Afghanistan, along with immigration, ISIS, taxation, and health care is more complicated than he thought.

    It’s almost like he was talking out of his ass during the whole election like a cut-rate carny.

  168. realitychecker

    It’s almost like someone gave you a lobotomy while you were sleeping, and you still haven’t realized it.

    Actually, that’s exactly what it’s like.

  169. Hugh

    “The largest neo-Nazi group has 400 members in the whole US.”

    And half of them comment on this blog, apparently.

    Ouch! I think when logic doesn’t work, and facts don’t work, the only thing left that does is really well done ridicule. Thank you.

    Peter and Blizzard of Oz are long time Trump trolls. And now realitychecker has outed himself by channeling his full blown Trump as well. They render themselves absurd because they defend the absurd, and show their malevolence in defending malevolence. Trump has already shown himself to be a pathological narcissist, a liar, a bully, intensely ignorant and intellectually lazy. Yet this is their guy. That he is lying to them as much as he is lying to any and everyone else has yet to, and may never, penetrate the wall of their prejudice. I think Trump in some primitive grifter way understands this. There will always be marks who no matter how many times or profoundly they are had will not only never admit they were had but will defend to the end the grifter who screwed them.

  170. NR


    Ah, poor little Nazi can’t handle criticism of Dear Leader?

    Get over it, snowflake.

  171. NR


    Realitychecker is a hard-core racist as well. Check out his comment way upthread about how non-white journalists are incapable of doing their jobs.

    His ilk are all Trump has left supporting him.

  172. The plot thickens.

    From “Gohmert Calls for Investigation of VA Gov McAuliffe for ‘Facilitating’ Charlottesville Violence” @

    “They said in court there would be violence at Charlottesville, and then the witnesses and the photographs show they herded these groups to create violence so they could brag. We need a Justice Department investigation into Kessler. You don’t just go all of a sudden from having multiracial roommates and a Jewish girlfriend to all of a sudden being a white supremacist that wants to join the Republican party. There’s something very, very wrong in all of this.”

    He added, “Like they were the violence at Trump events, they may have been behind this violence getting started. They facilitated it, anyway.”

    Gohmert, BTW, was the ONLY Congress critter who, as recently as a 10 days ago, had read facts about the Awan brother scandal into the Congressional Record. I have that on the authority of George Webb:

    The marvelous George Webb, who has been breaking the Awan brothers / DNC scandal, on Friday made a damning comment on McCauliffe as “being mixed up in all of this”.

  173. The Stephen Miller Band

    Trump just got pragmatic.


    You know where I am, so how about you come call me a Snowflake to my face. I’m waiting, Tough Guy. Bring It On.

  174. The Stephen Miller Band

    His ilk are all Trump has left supporting him.

    Not quite. Trump has The Military & The Police, namely The National Security State, in his Corner. He’s the Perfect Foil. While he Plays the Fool, they Rob Us Blind & Rape the Planet.

  175. realitychecker

    @ Hugh

    The only thing you got right in that last comment is that ridicule works, and that is why I use it freely when confronted with obvious determined idiots. Also, it’s fun, and there is so little fun on comment threads these days lol.

    I have had great respect for you over the years, because you always had a balanced tone to your analysis. I appreciated that you could do nuance. I guess you decided the choices perpetually offered of shit sandwiches has finally persuaded you somehow that some shit sandwiches are so preferable to others that you need to join the Nazi ravers.

    Not me, brother, I still hate and oppose all the exploiters equally. Trump for me was always, and still is, useful to me only insofar as he serves to break down the existing duopoly and rein in the delusional extremes of political correctness that have brought us micro-everythings and the disgusting spectacles of masked thugs shutting down non-violent speakers–like Bill Maher!!!!!

    Enjoy the shit sandwich you now prefer, if you wish, but you will still be eating shit. Not me, I have always been and will always be for advancing the interests of decent regular folks against the authoritarian elements.

    But right now, you have planted yourself on the wrong side. Sad.

  176. realitychecker

    @ TSMB

    When V. Arnold and I are in agreement that you are a disgusting and unbalanced POS, you have really accomplished a milestone lololol.

    There is nothing so pathetic in all of the varying Internet displays than a guy who challenges another guy in cyberspace to have a physical confrontation. Absolutely nothing that can rival that level of out-of-touchness, Whenever I see it, I think, “Victory!”

    But, having said that, I must say I am very, very impressed with your obvious sincerity , so, I will make an exception JUST THIS ONE TIME, and will meet you for the fight to the death that you crave.

    You’re right that I do know exactly where you are. So, kiss your Mama good-bye, and walk out of your basement, get on your bicycle and pedal your way 62.3 miles south, then turn right at the big mulberry bush, and pedal 42.6 miles to the west, and then you will see the sun-bleached buffalo skull on the side of the road near the Burma Shave billboard. Park your bike there (lock it up to the rusty missile launcher behind the billboard, so the Nazis don’t steal it!), and walk 4.5 miles to the active volcano next to the Dairy Queen. I will be waiting for you in the DQ parking lot.

    If you leave now, we will arrive at the same time, tough guy.

  177. The Stephen Miller Band

    There is nothing so pathetic in all of the varying Internet displays than a guy who challenges another guy in cyberspace to have a physical confrontation. Absolutely nothing that can rival that level of out-of-touchness, Whenever I see it, I think, “Victory!”

    I agree. The only thing more absurd & pathetic is calling someone a Snowflake via The Net and claiming Hollow Victories, so, you have me beat. Nobody wins here. We all die. Eventually.

  178. The Stephen Miller Band

    I never challenged you to a confrontation. I said call me a Snowflake to my face because when you do, it has a more indelible impression and I want you to get the most bang for your insulting buck. You wouldn’t bother to make the effort but you’ll move your fingers enough to type it on a screen. That makes you a Lazy Ass who lacks conviction. How come you weren’t out there marching in The Torchlight Parade in Charlottesville? Or were you? If you weren’t, why do you allow The Slugs to do your Dirty Work. Get up off your ass and do it yourself. Get out there and defend The Confederacy, via its War Memorials, from The Yankee Hordes and if you want to protect your Butt Buddy Trump, join his Secret Service Detail for free since The SS is running short on funds at the moment and can’t afford to protect The Royal Family.

  179. realitychecker

    @ STMB

    A poor memory to boot.

    “You know where I am, so how about you come call me a Snowflake to my face. I’m waiting, Tough Guy. Bring It On.”

    Your bicycle must have flat tires. 🙂

  180. realitychecker

    If I could be totally serious for a moment, maybe all could take a moment to consider that the ideologies of both political sides have clearly failed and betrayed and even disgusted regular folks (which includes all of us here, as far as I can tell), and there will be no revolution to change the system (hell nobody will even discuss the possibility from a scholarly or philosophical perspective), so it seems clear that there is no action we could take to change any of the things we all love to complain about.

    In view of that fact, we need someone to do what we have proven ourselves impotent to do.

    That someone would have to break down what is, before anybody can start to build a better replacement. If you can’t understand that, stop reading now.

    Whatever you think of Trump (and I gladly concede he is personally a narcissistic asshole), he is shaking things up, and in the chaotic aftermath and reactions to what he tweets and does, all the elements of the Establishment that are essential to keeping people down and oligarchs up are revealing themselves to be disgusting and unacceptable in a more obvious and compelling way than any of us could ever have accomplished. And in a very short time.

    This chaos and destruction of the credibility of the entrenched bad guys is an essential first step.

    If we are smart, we will let this chaos play out and weaken the System as far as it can, and then we may get a chance to step up and argue for our own preferred solutions and improvements.

    But none of our thoughts will ever get a fair hearing unless the present-day System, with all its levels and enablers, has been sufficiently enfeebled.

    So, I am glad we have someone on the scene that is starting the process, because we have been unable to do anything except lose ground in our desire for freedom and fairness for the last few decades. But the process is just starting, the first step of a thousand step journey.

    In conclusion, you can consider this dispassionately, or just call me a Nazi racist cannibal pedphile psychotic rapist troll if that is the highest level you are capable of.

  181. The Stephen Miller Band

    RC, even though I don’t own a bike, my tires are fully inflated thank you very much. I’m not going to hurt you, RC, I promise. I don’t pick on disabled people and, not to mention but I will, it would take you forever to reach your proposed rendezvous with me in your motorized scooter, but hey, you’d sure be Riding In Style being the Caped & Masked Avenger that you are.

    Here He (RC) Comes To Save The Day!!!

  182. Peter


    Perhaps you could use the analytical skills, RC complemented you on, to help explain what it is that causes liberals to become so noxious when challenged. There doesn’t appear to be any self-reflection on the religious like absolutism or low road mud-slinging this degeneration produces.

    Are you even aware of where you are headed with compatriots such as the vomitus spewing NR or screw-loose Stevie.

  183. The Stephen Miller Band

    RC, you’re not fooling anyone, least of all me. Trump isn ‘t shaking things up, he’s doubling down on the worst of empire. Thanks to him, our environment will now be more polluted, the wealthy will pay even less taxes and in fact if the trend continues we’ll have to pay taxes directly to the wealthy and we are expanding war & war rhetoric by virtue of Trump’s speech last night about Afghanistan. That’s Business As Usual on steroids, not shaking things up.

    Do you prefer a greater presence in Afghanistan, RC? Answer the question directly instead of hedging and deflecting as is your wont. Don’t be evasive. I’ll answer it for myself. I want America out of Afghanistan and out of The Middle East entirely. I want The American Military’s budget reduced by at least 80% and that would mean a closure of most Military Bases around the world as well as all the Forts & Bases around America. How about you, RC? Do you think that’s too complex & impractical to do? Or is it a Goal worth supporting?

  184. The Stephen Miller Band

    RC & Peter remind me of Colonel Mustard. Delicate Petunias, they are. They don’t like to have their Authority challenged. To me, they have NO AUTHORITY. They are why I support a woman’s Right To Choose. If their mothers had the right, there’s a chance they would not have been born and The World, as a result, would have been a better place.

  185. The Stephen Miller Band

    Are we going to pretend we don’t know who the Key Players are in the Heroin Drug Trade where Afghanistan is the Exclusive Supplier? How about The Brave American Military, instead of protecting The Heroin Trade, tracks down ALL those, and I mean ALL, who are responsible for its flourishing. I’ll tell you why. Because if they did that, they’d be tracking down many of their own and many VIP Americans, that’s why they don’t. If I was POTUS, I promise I would track them all down and skin them alive and then crucify them on The Capital Grounds and The White House Lawn for all to see and to serve as an example to The Duplicitous that the same fate awaits them if they continue with their evil, sadistic, nefarious ways. I have some General Pershing in me, just appropriately directed at the String Pullers rather than The Little People.

    Afghan Poppy Farmers Say New Seeds Will Boost Opium Output (Can You Say Monsanto?)

    This is right out of The Monsanto Playbook.

    No one seems to know where the seeds originate from. The farmers of Kandahar and Helmand provinces, where most of Afghanistan’s poppies are grown, say they were hand-delivered for planting early this year by the same men who collect the opium after each harvest, and who also provide them with tools, fertilizer, farming advice — and the much needed cash advance.

  186. BlizzardOfOz

    In times of strife, politics are about who is on your side. If the white left feels like no one is, then they’re probably right: the Diversity they pretend to love despises them, and the heartland returns their contempt with interest. The undercurrent of despair from the white left comes from isolation, and their desperation blinds them to the loyalty that Trump has deserved. Defending us deplorables at great risk to himself, while everyone else, Republican leaders included, were calling us Nazis and justifying violence against us: that is just the latest example.

  187. I just posted:

    (BAD TRUMP) Progressives @ counterpropa(ganda).com Talking More About Democratic Culpability than the clueless Trump Administration

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