The horizon is not so far as we can see, but as far as we can imagine

AOC, Ilhan Omar, and Tlaib Endorse Sanders


I find it interesting that many centrists are angered and surprised. They thought these three, arguably the most progressive members of the House caucus, would endorse Warren.

Certainly, by recent standards Warren is progressive and left-leaning, but she’s weak sauce compared to Sanders.

But centrists thought because she was a woman, AOC, Tlaib, and Omar would endorse her.

I’m glad to see this shift away from identity as primary. Of course, Sanders is Jewish, though no one seems to care, but they don’t care in large part because he doesn’t make a deal out of it at all. Sanders is for everyone. Some people need more help, and he wants to give it them.

And that’s what true left-wingers want. Identity can’t, and shouldn’t be ignored, because the world doesn’t ignore it, but almost everyone needs help at some point, and everyone should have a good life, and it’s good politics to talk to everyone.

Despite all the talking points about Bernie Bros, Sanders support has always actually been more female than male, and more ethnic than white. This shouldn’t be a surprise, because economic populism, combined with specific policies to help non-white males, will help them a ton.

A final note: If Warren wins the nomination, I’ll endorse her, and happily, even though I prefer Sanders. But, I do remember that she didn’t endorse Sanders in 2016 when her endorsement might have mattered in Massachusetts. These three young politicians have shown an integrity and bravery she didn’t. I’ve seen quite a few threats about how AOC (in particular) will pay a price. I’m sure Warren understood that in 2016, and thus decided to lay low.

Real allies don’t do that, and it’s one thing which has made me uneasy about Warren ever since.

AOC, Tlaib, and Omar, on the other hand, continue to earn trust. They say what they mean, and they stand up.

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The Bullshit of Bias Evaluation and Left/Right Equivalency


Open Thread


  1. “Bernie Bros” is a Republican-Lite slur, originating with the Clinton-deranged.

  2. Hugh

    Good on them. There is always this tension in American politics between ideas versus personalities. Too often the personalities drown out the ideas. In this case, these women are using their personalities to serve their ideas. Hence the endorsement of Sanders.

  3. Eric Anderson

    Class subsumes identity. Full stop.

  4. Keith in Modesto

    I was very glad to hear that AOC was endorsing Bernie, and then to hear that Ilhan and Tlaib would also was wonderful icing on the cake. I hear that Pressley will probably be endorsing Warren because she’s from Massachusetts. She seems to be more willing to play politics with the DC establishment then the other members of the Squad. I hope she reconsiders that now is the time to get behind a really left-progressive future for the Democratic Party and for the United States. It’s the best chance for a real Left government here since FDR (cause McCarthyism destroyed the Left after WWII and the Dem. establishment went right along with it). And Sanders is the best chance we have right now for the US to take the steps we have to take to stop and reverse the Climate Catastrophe. We need Pressley to step up and join the rest of the Squad in endorsing Bernie.

  5. Eric Anderson

    As an example, Shaun King hit Jane Eisner so hard with a reply tweet, drawing out this difference, she deleted her post.

    It’s a thing of beauty:

  6. ponderer

    I don’t consider the left’s 3 darlings to be genuine. Having said that, this will hurt Bernie in the general if he makes it that far.

  7. Ché Pasa

    Ultimately, I wouldn’t bet on either Warren or Sanders being the Democratic nominee, but that aside, it seems perfectly logical to me that those three members of The Squad would endorse Sanders and Pressley would (eventually) back Warren, if she does.

    They all seem to know how politics works, and they know how the game is played to accomplish particular objectives. I think they realize that Dems have a poor record on behalf of the People since Nixon, and that politicians like Warren are one of the reasons why.

    The Ex-Republicans (like Warren) are still at bottom Republicans, and their proliferation among the Dems, both on the elected side and the consultant side, has all but exterminated the Democratic Party’s former focus on the needs and interests of the masses. Bernie saw the vacuum of leadership and took it on, followed by a handful of other Democratic Socialist politicians and a lot of frustrated ordinary people who were fed up with politics as usual.

    In other words, Bernie demonstrated there’s a strong core of support for Democratic Socialist policies among the People, but there is very little support — essentially none — within the current political system. Given the way our politics works, it would take a hundred years or more for even a few of the social justice policies of the “Left” to be adopted.

    The political trend-line is always to the right, and by the time something vaguely “leftist” is enacted, it is so attenuated, it may as well be “rightist.” Viz: Obamacare.

    Even if the Democratic Socialists were eventually to obtain victory at the polls and power within the political system, it’s hard for me to see a policy pathway in opposition to the rightist and reactionary system they sought power over. Institutional inertia is often more powerful than the politicians.

    I think Bernie understands as well as anyone that the only way this situation changes is with a ground up revolution, but getting to that point almost impossible. So you play the game as best you can, and hope to transform the system from within.


  8. Tom Robinson

    Wait. When has Sanders support been more ethnic than white? It sure wasn’t versus Clinton. Right now a core bloc of D voters are Black women. They’re supporting Biden. And they achieve things like electing Doug Jones to the Senate from Alabama.

  9. BlizzardOfOzzz

    So, I take it that you guys are not serious anymore, having fallen into a deep, abiding depression, having realized that your party consists now of foreign scab labor, and men in dresses masturbating into each others anuses. However, for the sake of argument: how do you square providing a nice middle-class lifestyle to every American, including however many billion 65-IQ Africans might want to move here for that, with drastically scaling back industry to reverse climate change? Granted, as a Forqkkking White Male I’m not up on the latest Wakandan science, so maybe I’m missing something.

  10. Willy

    Attempting to return to a system which worked well for the American middle class for over 40 years may be far too radical for some. In their minds, Venezuela is part of Scandinavia, Mexicans are Muslim terrorists, Israel a Christian nation, and global corporations will collapse without our tax dollars. Centrists on the other hand, might be worth the effort.

  11. Ten Bears

    Nice Che` – I long ago grew so tired of reminding people that tigers, zebras and Young Republicans do not change their stripes that I stopped. It’s a Cassandra thing. That is what bothers me with the term “progressive”. Teddy Roosevelt was a “Progressive”, after he was a Republican. Warren, Biden, Clinton… all Young Republicans, Goldwater Girls. The cream of the Democrat crop. Republicans-Lite.

    Another way of looking at it: most of the Republicans I know are “Independents” today. Doesn’t change what they did but it somehow makes them feel better. Trump who?

  12. edmondo

    But centrists thought because she was a woman, AOC, Tlaib and Omar would endorse her.

    It’s much more likely that they thought they would endorse her because she might actually win and Bernie can’t no matter how many times he complains about how they “stole his nomination.
    Does anyone who has been exposed to the USA over the last 20 years actually believe that someone who calls himself a “democratic socialist” would win a national election. Bernie was being cute when he tried to make sure no one called him a member of the Democratic Party. The only problem is that he destroyed his brand and elections are nothing more than branding contests.

    Waiting for Americans to vote for an 80-year-old socialist with a bad ticker to start a revolution has got to be the most serious case of self-delusion ever.

  13. NR

    Can’t believe Ian decided to leave Blizzard’s disgusting comment up. Well, if nothing else, it serves a useful function: it proves the lie of the statement that “Trump supporters are just good people who want better lives and can be won back by economic populism.” Can we finally put that canard to bed, please?

  14. edmondo

    Placing all your hopes on believing that America is going to vote for a Revolution led by an 80-year-old socialist with a bad ticker seems rather imprudent. But good luck.

  15. ponderer

    The question of how to lower production enough to significantly affect climate change while providing necessary goods for the entire planet and here at home is important and largely unaddressed. Globalization, wage arbitration, and free movement of peoples is diametrically opposed to Naturalization, Regulation, and addressing climate change.
    The wording was poor but the question is very insightful. It is the one that will be answered in 2020, and over and over again as long as long as there are any of us left to argue over it. In 2016 Trump won the argument and it is likely too again. You can’t be the party of socialism and capitalism, or open borders and a vibrant middle class or identity politics and class politics. Eventually Democrats will have to acknowledge that. Just like the Republican party found that colonialism and capitalism aren’t conducive to isolationism, equality under the law, civil rights or a constitutional republic.

  16. Herman


    Bernie will be branded as the crazy commie candidate no matter what so he might as well own it. Getting endorsed by AOC, Omar and Tlaib might hurt Sanders in the general election because it might turn off moderates but if that happens it will be a good indicator of how genuine many anti-Trump people are.

    Personally, I know some Democrats who dislike Trump but also dislike Sanders and might sit out the election if it is Bernie vs Trump or might hold their nose and choose one of them. Interestingly, they are all white guys, including young white guys, the kind of people who are supposed to be the fabled Bernie Bros. I know it is just an anecdote but it is interesting to think about.

    In a Trump vs. Bernie contest it will be interesting to see how white men vote. I have criticized left-wing identity politics but identity politics exists on the right too so it will be interesting to see how many white men vote for an economically populist old white guy because theoretically Bernie should be the perfect antidote to Trump if the class-first theorists are correct, and I hope they are correct!

  17. different clue

    I have suggested that we admit to the difference between Political Economy ( PE) Leftists as against Culture Of Wokeness ( COW) Leftists.

    The Three Amigas’ endorsement of Sanders is an expression of PE Leftness.

    Here is a perfect example of COW Leftism from the twitter thread that Eric Anderson brought here.

    Replying to @shaunking @Jane_Eisner and 3 others
    Representation MATTERS! This is the first time we have had such a strong, diverse democratic field in terms of age, gender and race. I am very disappointed with their decision.”

  18. ponderer

    Bernie being a commie isn’t a problem. He’s never been one unless you are comparing him to Biden. The problem is the message he is trying to sell. Independent voters aren’t going to buy that he wants to help them and cater to ‘the three Amigas’. The pictures of AOC and co with crocodile tears and wailing at a gate with no actual immigrants or refugee’s will make the rounds again. They will wonder if once again the working class will be dropped by the Democrats in favor of identity politics. They will think he is part of the Resistance, the same one that considers them deplorable. That won’t be much of a factor until the criminal referrals. In 2020 that is going to be huge for independents. The democrats are handing him leg irons and he is putting them on. In the off chance he gets the nomination he will have to carry all that weight through the general. He is going to claim he will help the working class get ahead with huge amounts of debt and an open door immigration policy and foreign wars and on and on. He will be the poster child of the hypocrisy of the Democrats because they set him up to be that way and he has fallen for it.

  19. Tom

    AOC is an idiot and does more harm than good.

    Ilhan and Tlaib are game changers, and Tlaib should be Bernie’s running mate to counter the Israeli’s lobbyist narative. Ilhan should be made secretary of state in a Bernie Administration, and AOC quietly appointed Ambassador to a small nation no one cares about.

    The key to winning is to hammer home an economic message to the Rust Belt and get them back in the democratic orbit and more importantly:

    They need to flip Texas. They don’t actually need it to win, but flipping it Blue will destroy the Republican Party and cause it to fracture while also finally being the death knell for the Clintobamite Dems.

  20. Eric Anderson

    Wow. You folks are giving voters waaaaaaay too much credit for being able to think.
    Just take Blizzard’s comment. Quite Trumpian, right? So, there’s about 30% of America that would think it wisdom. The rest? So sick of the orange idiot they’d vote for Stalin.

    We’re looking at the typical backlash landslide no matter who the democrat nominee is.

    Then, we’ll see how they handle their first 6 mo.

    And by the way Bliz, you’ve taken abhorrence to a new level.

  21. Eric Anderson

    Which, by the way, is exactly why smart progressives sat the last election out. They knew Hillary was worse than Trump because she would perpetuate the status quo, which would have been harder to beat than the orange idiot. And along the way, the American voter would get a great 4 yr. education on the damage an unhinged conservative can wreak.

    And as to “[p]lacing all your hopes on believing that America is going to vote for a Revolution led by an 80-year-old socialist with a bad ticker seem[ing] rather imprudent”?

    Wait until the voters get a load of some of the “concrete material benefits” (to borrow lambert strether’s favorite phrase) a progressive administration will roll out.

    Sheeeeeeeit … conservatives are still trying to roll back the concrete material benefits FDR implemented. Benefits that won the party the loyalty of a certain winning voting block for decades after. Then … the democrats blinked. And we’ve been paying the price ever since.

  22. S Brennan

    Forced to agree wholeheartedly with Chey when he says:

    “I think they realize that Dems have a poor record on behalf of the People since Nixon, and that politicians like Warren are one of the reasons why.”

  23. Eric Anderson

    Which is exactly why Bernie is going to win this thing.
    Voters in this country really just want to vote for someone who they trust to do the things they say they are going to do. Or, at least fight like hell trying.

    Nobody really cares about policy. They’re generally too thick to even understand the implications of what’s being proposed.

  24. scarn

    Mr. Welsh, you should up your game and start demanding insightful commentary that matches the level of your essays, or just turn comments off. More than half of this could be yanked from my dad’s facebook wall.

    Y’all boomer guys here with your obsessions about what white men think, open borders, and overpopulation? The kids are coming for your throats, teeth bared.

  25. Herman


    What I meant is that Bernie will be branded as an extreme leftist by the Republicans no matter what. I am not really a huge fan of The Squad and I agree with you on the open borders immigration issue and foreign wars but I think it is also the case that the American working class increasingly looks more like AOC and less like the traditional hard hat voter from the 1970s.

    When people talk about the working class they usually mean blue-collar whites but blue-collar whites make up a shrinking proportion of the working class these days. Workers today are more likely to be non-white and work in a service industry. This brings us back to identity politics. It works both ways. It is not just a problem on the left, although I agree that many on the left and neoliberal pseudo-left use identity politics in a pernicious way to divide people.

    However, sometimes I honestly think that some liberals are right when they say that many whites only want economic populism for other whites and that this is part of Trump’s appeal. It appears that Bernie is trying to build a multiracial, class-based coalition which is what class-first people claim they want so will whites vote for Bernie if he is in the general election against Trump? It will be a good test of the class-first thesis.

  26. bruce wilder

    they realize that Dems have a poor record on behalf of the People since Nixon, and that politicians like Warren are one of the reasons why.

    Politicians like Biden, Clinton, Steny Hoyer, Rahm Emmanuel, Pete Buttigieg . . . .

    Elizabeth Warren is one of the politicians I would be least likely to blame.

    I am not saying that I do not see that she is reaching for power by means of calculated betrayals of the interests of the working classes: I do see it clearly. I would prefer Bernie. I also would prefer Bernie to be a charismatic 40-year-old.

    Ultimately, my preferred politics requires mass movement. Warren is careful to say words respectful of the need for political mass movements, but at the center of her “calculated betrayal” is the possibly quite reasonable assessment that no mass movement of sufficient size and conviction will happen, perhaps both because too few of the self-disenfranchised will stir themselves and because of the reaction from the professional-classes electoral base of the Democratic Party. The latter, to which Mandos likes to draw attention as the very real electoral constituency of the Democratic establishment, are the people Warren is targeting with her own candidacy’s appeal.

    There is a split in the Democratic Party. AOC and Sanders represent the radical rebels against the virtue-signaling, deep-state loving, economic complacency that voted a numerical plurality for Hillary Clinton. The Dem establishment actively cultivates (formerly since alienated by Trump?) Republican suburban women of a certain age as the key to swinging the Presidential election because their sensibilities are no obstacle to the establishment’s servicing of their donor class. While the 3 amigas were getting elected by radical rebellion, the Dems were taking the House with young conservative Congressional candidates with resumes studded with military, police and intelligence agency service — at least 10 of them, all of the Buttigieg-like.

    Warren, give her credit, is doing her best to appeal to the better angels nature of the professional classes, the side that sees the need for reform even if inclined to favor wonky, self-defeating “smart” policy reform. Even given her reputation, well-earned, for being tough on the banks, she is getting support from the Dem donor base in the finance sector. She is getting favorable coverage from the now thoroughly corrupt mainstream Media. She may pull it off: stitching the rump of Sanders’ disappointed support to the great Lump of The Resistance. (And, i take some comfort in the fact that Kamala Harris did not succeed in her purer fraud marrying her authoritarianism and pretty “black” face to money from the Hamptons.)

    I have my doubts. And hopes, I suppose. I look at Biden’s poll numbers and I cannot help but wonder where those people go when they wake up and start paying attention to politics for 3 weeks before the primary vote. People who look at Biden’s policy record, corruption and senility and think, “he is my guy!” Or, more likely don’t look yet, just go with a vague association from their last brief moment of participation in electoral politics.


    As we pedantically get lost in the weeds discussing the irrelevancy of politics, the horse left the barn long ago. It’s baked in the cake and politics isn’t the solution, it’s part of the problem.

    This was 1973. Perfectly prescient. Spot on. It’s nearly 2020 (pun intended considering this computer program had 20/20 vision as far as the future was concerned) and what this computer algorithm predicted for 2020 is exactly what we are experiencing.

    AOC and the Green New Dealers do not have an answer for this nor do they have an appropriately radical response or plan for it. It’s all feel good blather.

    Computer Predicts The End Of Civilization (1973) | RetroFocus

  28. bruce wilder

    There is a kind of statistical-stupid that has a really hard time understanding that Trump’s core electoral appeal is class-based. The “racist! and that is all anyone needs to know” refrain is meant to avoid confronting the reality of the politics and the economics.

  29. Ten Bears

    The American working class increasingly looks more like AOC and less like the traditional hard hat voter from the 1970s.

    Exactly right. Fifty years ago I put on a hard hat (actually, it’s a habit, not a hat) and went to work in the woods, sending logs to the sawmill, to be made into boards to build stuff around th country. Today my hometown, the third fastest growing city in the country, once home to the world’s largest white pine production facility is home to twenty-seven breweries – BeerTown USA! – seventeen golf courses and nearly as many “gated communities”. Though you may still spot a hard hat on occasion, the industry is prostitution: servicing the breweries, golf courses and gated communities, batenders, barmaids, cooks and gas-pumpers. Indeed, most commute from as fast of growing outlying communities as much as thirty-five miles away (with virtually no bus and absolutely no train service).

    Wow. You folks are giving voters waaaaaaay too much credit for being able to think.
    Just take Blizzard’s comment. Quite Trumpian, right?

    Eyup. Raw Story is headlining a Joe & Mika comment on just how stupid Republican voters are, and their failure in their responsibility to be reasonably well enough informed to cast a vote … something I have long advocated for: a literacy test to register. Stupid people should not be voting.

    While we fiddle-fuck around, The kids are coming for your throats, teeth bared.

  30. Ten Bears

    And that computer model, four, also predicted we would be in the onset of an ige age.


    And that computer model, four, also predicted we would be in the onset of an ige age.

    If the nukes fly, we’ll have that onset of an ice age. That could happen any day now. Think about the rash of Twitter tweets and Facebook posts prior to the first EMPs while the missiles are enroute. It will be likened to that time before the plane crashes. Those crucial terrifying moments when you know you’re going to die a horrible death and there is nothing you can do about it.

    That model also predicted Trump. Here’s a quatrain it spit out.

    Wildmen ferocious with anger, crossover parties,
    The greater part of the swamp will be against Trump;
    With cunning connivance, the deep state will make the assault,
    When the orange child of American Capitalism shall heed no one.

    Anyway, the model got 2020 right, for the most part. Here we are. Here today. Gone tomorrow.

  32. NR

    bruce wilder:

    I want you to read Trump supporter BlizzardOfOzzz’s comment in this very post (it’s the ninth one from the top) and then try to tell me with a straight face that Trump’s core electoral appeal is class-based. Do you really think class interests are what drive Trump supporters to believe and say things like that?

  33. Eric Anderson

    What scarn said.
    This ain’t boomer country anymore.
    We’re witness to the end of an era.
    By way of example: I live in a small rural town in a deeply red state. The boomers hold complete political control. But, they’re retiring and dying in droves. And, the GenXers (me) coming in behind them hold none of their views. Their kids are running off to the cities. The farms are being taken apart, or sold to outside interests. By virtue of my profession, I’m given keys to access all of the community halls of power. And I manipulate them. Slowly, steadily, increasing my own power until the time is right to move to take power myself.

    Now, as a GenXer, you’d think I would be some ‘lite’ version of those that preceded me. But I’m not. I’m lockstep with my peers in the area — and the millennials populating this area as well. And we are leftist. And we’re coming for you. We’ll be making the laws while you’re in Depends — and we don’t f@cking like you. It amy behoove you to do some hard thinking on that.

    Think. Hard. On. That.

  34. ponderer


    You seem to think that its important if Bernie has some label like commie attached to him. I think the labels don’t matter, it only matters if he can get other people to trust him. Right now more Democrats trust Biden so its kind of a moot issue. I’ve heard the same promises from Democrats my entire life and the only conclusion I’ve been able to come up with is that what they say they want (platform) is not what they actually want. Clinton, Clinton, and Obama have proved this, Congress and the bobble-heads on tv have as well. Even when I preferred Conservatives (never Republicans), I noticed that the R’s delivered more than the D’s to their voters. The people that put Trump into the white house don’t trust either party because of the decades of deception and corruption. When you are in the losing class and you have no chance to get out of it you’ll take any option to get revenge on the establishment.

    It appears that Bernie is trying to build a multiracial, class-based coalition which is what class-first people claim they want so will whites vote for Bernie if he is in the general election against Trump? It will be a good test of the class-first thesis.

    There is no logical tie between voting for Bernie and racism. Half of Democrats won’t vote for Bernie now does that mean they are racists? These old, tired propagandistic arguments are used by people who want to fail. They like the tribal identity politics system and their place in it. They don’t want any of Bernie’s policies, they would prefer to lose decade after decade and come up with the most outrageous excuses for why they will never accomplish 1% of what they say they will. So are Bernies low poll ratings because the Democrats don’t want poor people to have healthcare or decent lifestyles, or because they don’t believe that HE wants those things. Right now it seems to be a toss up and if he has this much trouble with Democrats the rest of the country is no sure thing. As long as he and the party holds on to contradictory policies its not going to get better.

  35. ponderer

    I would hope that we could be rational and reasonable instead of engaging in ageism and disingenuous arguments. I’m especially appalled at some commenters clear threats towards their community and older generations. As a gen-x capable of rational thought and reading history books I know that every generation has its hot heads crowing about taking over from the old guard. I also know the 60’s didn’t deliver on any of those promises. The most vocal are not necessary the most numerous nor the smartest.
    I’m unconvinced of a random troll being a “Trump supporter” nor that it would matter as far as understanding our complex political landscape goes. Taking a superficial dogma approach to politics hasn’t worked in 60 years but there seem to be people hell bent on losing. Adding anger and threats to the mix only reinforces previous failures and prevents any hope for future generations.

  36. Mike Barry

    I don’t grok how Joe Biden gets any votes. Off the top of my head, he’s a race-baiter, a warmonger, a corporatist stooge for the credit card and prison industries, a senile old bozo, a misogynist, and a public prevert. And that’s on a good day.

    Bruce Springsteen’s new Western Stars album has a song which may or may not be a comment on Mr. Biden:

    Sleepy Joe’s Cafe

    I close with a highly relevant quote: “If you try any preversions in there I’ll blow your head off.” — Colonel Bat Guano

    Pssttt…Agent Mike, that’s not a threat, it’s a movie quote.

  37. Mike Barry

    (Null comment with a closing italic – /i surrounded by signs – to kill the runaway italics from my previous comment)

  38. Herman


    Well, I was talking about a Trump vs. Bernie race in the general election. The Democratic primary is a different story. My guess is that if Sanders wins the primary most Democrats will come home and vote for Sanders just like most Republicans voted for Trump in 2016 even though many didn’t like him and would have preferred a different candidate.

    In a Trump vs. Bernie race it will be pretty clear that one side is more pro-worker than the other unlike in 2016 and I think it will be interesting to see how the white vote goes, especially working-class whites. I can’t predict how it will go so I am not saying that Trump will win working-class whites.

    However, I find it odd that so many people here refuse to admit that white identity politics exists and that sometimes whites vote based on identity just like other groups do. That doesn’t necessarily make white Republicans racists (although some are, just like many non-white Democrats have reactionary social views) it just means that they vote based on identity and not class. Some of the Trump vote in 2016 was tied to economic issues but a lot of it was also tied to identity politics. I am not a big fan of identity politics but it is a reality that we have to deal with on both the right and the left.

  39. S Brennan

    An obvious troll post, like an “ink-blot-test” is made out to represent 1/2 the country by another commenter. Yeah, if you say so.

    Then a murderous internet threat, mirroring exactly that of elitist baby-boomers 50 years ago…from a drive-by troll, is given traction by the commentariat . Pardon me for not paying attention to a 60’s movie line that I saw with a barf bag in the seat in front of me.

    Where do all these low-end posters fade to after an election? Where do they go for three years when it comes time to “hold THEIR candidate’s feet to the fire”?

    The Obama years were resplendent with such apathetic “thinkers”, their deepest thoughts could be easily outdone by a high-school cheerleader at a Friday night’s football game. How such pathetic trolls can get mileage from the commentariat on this blog is beyond me.

  40. Ten Bears

    This is one of those rare occasions I’m happy to see our Blizzard “Sandy Hook was a false flag and those dead teachers and children were crisis actors and are not dead” of Ooozzz, indeed even rarer occasion I deign its existence, stop by to illuminate the issue.

  41. Eric Anderson

    “I know that every generation has its hot heads crowing about taking over from the old guard.”

    Rational thought, eh.

    How rational is sitting around fiddling for 30yrs while rome burns — while we watch it happen and resent the inaction. It’s not ageism. It is STILL happening right in front of our faces. The boomers screwed us with their me me me me me generation crap. Selfish. Reckless. Sociopathic.

    You’re a joke ponderer.


  42. Eric Anderson

    Pretty sure there are no historic parallels, Mr. rational.

  43. Eric Anderson

    Repent boomers. Judgment is upon you and thy end is near.

  44. Herman

    @Eric Anderson,

    It is rational to sit around and do nothing because most people understand that they have zero influence over the major issues of the day and so they don’t bother to get involved in politics or even follow current events because it is useless to them and will likely bring unnecessary stress. In this the Baby Boomers are no different from any other generation.

    By the way, this is exactly why people use things like identity as a shortcut for voting. Most people are not going to spend the large amounts of time necessary to understand policy and then spend even more time becoming activists and those that do are often even more irrational and biased than the relatively apolitical. A person could plausibly argue that we are wasting our time arguing about these things on the Internet since most of us likely have no power to influence politics and we might be better off watching sports or sitcoms instead. Perhaps politics is just our version of sports fandom.

    I don’t want to go too far and argue for being apolitical, but blaming Baby Boomers or Millennials or whites or non-whites or whatever group of ordinary people makes little sense. Blaming elites makes more sense since they do have power but even they are constrained by imperfect information and the dictates of the system.

  45. Willy

    Boomers were brainwashed. How else can you explain going from fighting the power while wearing floppy fros, loose tits, and bell bottomed pants, to a race of white collar conservatives pathologically and irresponsibly overconsuming, with a love of pointing plastic fingers?

    A sad generation of bad fadders best skilled at replacing one selfish bad fad with another?

    Maybe the brainwashing was made easier with advanced Bernays tech, and the fact that Boomers never really faced seriously hard times. A bored idealistic people up for the next big thing are always easier to manipulate.

    The difference between now and other generational old times, is that we’re near a lot of never-before-encountered tipping points. Sure the Mayans irresponsibly overconsumed their once impressive culture into oblivion. But we can’t even seem to learn from that lesson, let alone all the technology nobody’s ever seen before coming online. We need smarts and wisdom at the top this go-round.

  46. ponderer

    For those of you who think that Nirvana is classic rock, you might want to look into the 1940s. This will require reading but you might find the break from pr0n hub helpful. It was one of the few times in 200 years the working class got something out of the 1%. You’ll find it a distinct departure from the Democratic party of the last 60 years who’s greatest accomplishment is pissing away the New Deal slower some decades than others. Clinton really cashed out on that pissing away and its why you are living in your parents basement and financially stressed about having pets much less children. To the point it is so bad that D and R have to work together to get young illegal immigrants coming into the country so they will have someone to empty their diapers and scrub their mansions. If you feel aggrieved that 1/5 of your children will be on food stamps in their lives you might ask yourself while the housing and feeding of illegal immigrants is more important to the Democrats than providing enough nutrition and education to get your children into wage slave jobs. Better yet to wonder why you’ve been waiting on results your entire lives from a party leadership making Billions, yet you still fall for the same lies about poor white people being the problem.

    If your ‘woke’ness doesn’t include realizing the Democratic party is nothing but a Honey Pot and has been since at least FDRs time you are going to doom yourselves and your dwindling children to a state in which being slaves would be an improvement. For those POC, you might come to the realization that white vs. non-white is not the end goal or the focus of identity politics. Its to have the Asians vs Mexicans vs Blacks (already quite prevalent), then the Philippines vs Chinese vs Vietnamese and Mexicans vs Equadorians vs Cubans vs… and on and on. It’s no different than the Irish vs Scots vs Scandinavians in the late 1800s. The ‘goal’ in the simplest terms is to divide the largest group of people with common interests into the largest number of smallest groups possible to provide the whole with the least amount of political power. There are always traitors willing to walk herd on their group members for a piece of the pie.

    It’s time to wake up to the fact that the tactics and ideas that don’t and haven’t worked for 60 years that some of you cling to like an abusive parent were never meant to work in the first place. Just because you are dumb enough to believe something doesn’t make it true. The Democrats get money from Big Tech, Wall Street, and the occasional Fascist Dictator because they are useful tools and they are busy getting the gullible to hate each other.

    If by some miracle the younger generations come to their senses and organize outside the establishment with a plan to upend the status quo they will find themselves staring down the muzzles of hard eyed foreigners made desperate by our foreign policy and eager to fight for immigration concessions. That’s when you’ll regret your biggest challenge in life was a 52 hour Fortnite marathon, your deepest thought was “why don’t I have a rainbow pony my parents said I could have everything”, and every group you alienated along the way that didn’t trust the establishment to begin with won’t be around to save your entitled butts.

  47. NR

    Yeah, you guys don’t get to cop out by handwaving BoO away as “just a troll,” sorry. I’ve been visiting this blog for over three years now, lurking and posting, and he’s been around for most of that time. He may very well be trolling, but there is no doubt that he genuinely supports Trump and genuinely believes the things he says.

    And as for him representing half the country? Well, sorry, but that’s just facts. Not half, of course, but the 20% or so who voted for Trump. Study after study after study has come out since the election revealing that racism and racial resentment was the primary motivating factor for Trump voters, not economic issues. Here are just a couple of examples (I will give titles and not links so my comment doesn’t get stuck in moderation, you can easily find these studies via Google):

    “Explaining the Trump Vote: The Effect of Racist Resentment and Anti-Immigrant Sentiments”

    “The most important finding of the analysis, however, is that racism—regardless of how it was measured—appears to have been an important motive in voting for Trump. As such, this is not a new finding because we know that, indeed, in 2008 Barack Obama suffered from a lack of support among racist voters (Lewis- Beck, Tien, and Nadeau 2010). The 2016 campaign, however, demonstrated that the effect of racism is not only present when voters have a choice among candidates with different ethnic backgrounds. The ideological positions and the rhetoric of the candidate clearly matter as well. In this specific election, neg-ative attitudes toward ethnic minorities and immigrants swayed independents and some Democrats to opt for candidate Trump, thereby considerably strengthening his electoral-support base.”

    “Understanding White Polarization in the 2016 Vote for President: The Sobering Role of Racism and Sexism”

    “”The 2016 campaign witnessed a dramatic polarization in the vote choices of whites based on (their level of) education. Very little of this gap can be explained by the economic difficulties faced by less-educated whites. Rather, most of the divide appears to be associated with sexism, and denialism of racism.”

    So you see that when it comes to Trump supporters, the sentiments expressed by Blizzard of Ozzz are the rule and not the exception. Now I support economic policies like a $15/hr minimum wage because they are good policies, but I’m also not laboring under any illusion that a $15/hr minimum wage are going to sway people who believe that the American left is made up of men in dresses (I won’t type the rest of that disgusting statement) and that all Africans have 65 IQs. And I have to say I’m getting awfully tired of people continuing to pretend that a large majority of Trump voters aren’t driven by sentiments like racism and homophobia when they themselves continually show that they are (our good friend BoO here being only the most recent example of this).

  48. ponderer

    I always assumed he was a sock-puppet for tribal ideologues that like to show up and further divide the populace and left. It would make sense if these were Democrat herders because that is exactly what they do so well. It should give one pause that he so very accurately matches the Clintonesk stereotype of a Trump supporter. The actual people I meet tend to be full of contradictions so when I see ones online that aren’t I tend to wonder what astroturf factory they were made in. Maybe its my time at DKos that made me so cynical.
    He has allowed some commenters to ignore the relevant issues, actual facts, and try to dominate the discussion with moral ‘wokeness’. If your observations are all recycled from comments at CNN and DKos I don’t really see the point of participating in a discussion. They’ve decided to double down on the deplorables because that worked so well last time? No, they are here to divide the left and degenerate a legitimate intellectual discussion into name calling. You might think it has to do with the “other” political party but it doesn’t. The herders don’t care about that, all they care about is that the 60 years of divisions they have sown don’t get undone when people find out they have more in common that not.

  49. anon y'mouse

    while we all dither around calculating whom which horse is going to win the race, the bookies are picking our pockets.

    hasn’t the past 40+ years taught us that the head on the stick of the puppet show changes, but the punch&judy song and dance routine remains the same?

    a lot of energy wasted on this or that person. how about those 535 bozos who choose to sit on their hands or wring them in mock-tribulation and never do anything except play political football for hyped up, almost fake “issues”?

    isn’t all of this just a diversion away from actually doing anything, and having a scapegoat to project blame upon when nothing gets done?

    i despair of trying to calculate how long it will take for people to wake up and realize that it doesn’t matter who the tsar is, nor what he knows nor where his sympathies lay, we are screwed because those who actually hold the power want us to be.

  50. Mark Pontin

    NR wrote: “as for him (Trump) representing half the country? Well, sorry, but that’s just facts. Not half, of course, but the 20% or so who voted for Trump. Study after study after study has come out since the election revealing that racism and racial resentment was the primary motivating factor for Trump voters, not economic issues.”

    It’s easier for you to think that, of course. But suppose that’s not true. See forex —

    ‘UAW workers on strike in Michigan wonder: Where’s Trump?’

    ‘Support for President Donald Trump can be found on the picket line, but members of the United Auto Workers union are wondering whether the champion of Michigan’s blue-collar workers supports their strike against General Motors as demonstrations finish their third week.

    ‘Michigan’s autoworkers are at the center of an ongoing labor dispute that could have implications for Trump’s reelection prospects in Midwest battleground states. Trump touts his appeal among blue-collar autoworkers as one of the chief reasons he became the first Republican to win Michigan in nearly three decades but he’s avoided weighing in on the conflict, giving Democrats an opportunity to court a key part of his base.

    ‘“He wins the presidency and all sudden he’s nowhere to be found,” said Stephanie Carpenter, a 44-year-old employee at GM’s Romulus Propulsion Plant. “Everyone’s like, ‘where are you at?’ I don’t see him with American workers out on this picket line, showing his support.” ….

    The whole thing is worth a glance. Again, one can be contemptuous of these autoworkers as simply delusional fools or, maybe, have the grace and wits to recognize that a lot of Americans were — and are — so desperate that they took a chance on Trump because from their POV the alternative offered by Clintonite neoliberalism was — and is — inarguably worse.

    Personally, I suspect the chances of the Democrats going the way of the US Whig party within the decade might be higher than conventional wisdom presupposes

  51. Willy

    It’s only a smaller percentage of Trump voters who are desperate blue collar. Over 80% of evangelicals voted for Trump, but his handlers knew he needed just a few more to put him over the top. So they stretched his message just a bit to achieve that number. Isn’t that how it usually works?

    I have a conservative evangelical sister. Her family is “staunch conservative”. They and all four children are college educated. They watch Fox News and subscribe to conservative media de jour. Bill Kristol was once cool, today obsolete. Our public school systems breed socialism by teaching socialism. Obama was a socialist. AOC is an even worse socialist, and we’ll slide down that slippery slope towards gay-run gulags full of former job creators if she’s allowed to continue much longer. Trump is running the country well because he was a very successful businessman. Plus he was favored by God. Welfare queens, abortionists, ACW hoaxers, queers, and socialists, so many socialists, are around every corner, under every bed. God never ever just showing up for once is proof positive of his unquestioned greatness.

    For some reason they don’t talk about Muslim terrorists much anymore.

    This is about as deep they get. There is no debate, no introspection. You’re either in with them, a potential convert, or you’re to be shunned. Faith based reasoning is everything. Projection is standard. Bashing your head against people that closed-minded, that rationalistically tribal, is a complete waste of time. I’d rather debate with scientologists, or even actual socialists, if I could ever find one. People like that are best mocked for sport, or to help them strengthen their opinions to point of obvious madness. But they make one helluva voting block.

    What interests me is the cause of this (or any) mass extremism. It could be useful knowledge on smaller scales, more generally speaking, such as in our daily interactions.

  52. bruce wilder

    isn’t all of this just a diversion away from actually doing anything, and having a scapegoat to project blame upon when nothing gets done?

    Yes, it is diversion, but something gets done — the scapegoat is there to hide who did what for whom.

  53. Eric Anderson

    “It is rational to sit around and do nothing because most people understand that they have zero influence over the major issues of the day and so they don’t bother to get involved in politics or even follow current events because it is useless to them and will likely bring unnecessary stress.”

    There’s a well established psychological term for the dope you’re pushing. It’s called “learned helplessness.” Read up. You seem to suffer from a “pessimistic explanatory style.” You would have made a good little Nazi. It is anything but “rational.” It’s learned.

    You’re a speed bump for those of us who choose to retain agency over our environment.

  54. NR

    Mark Pontin:

    I read that article and it offers zero acutal data, just a couple of anecdotes from striking workers. Meanwhile, as I’ve cited here, there is a lot of actual data indicating that support for Trump was and is primarily driven by racism, sexism, and other prejudices and not by economic concerns.

    Do you honestly think that Blizzard of Ozzz and the people like him who make up the vast majority of the Trump base care about class issues at all? Can you really make that argument with a straight face after what you saw him write toward the beginning of this comment thread?

  55. Hugh

    Jesus was a socialist.

    Luke 3:11
    11 He answered and said to them, “He who has two tunics, let him give to him who has none; and he who has food, let him do likewise.”

    Luke 6: 24-25
    24 “But woe to you who are rich,
    For you have received your consolation.
    25 Woe to you who are full,
    For you shall hunger.

    Luke 6:30-31
    30 Give to everyone who asks of you. And from him who takes away your goods do not ask them back. 31 And just as you want men to do to you, you also do to them likewise.

  56. bruce wilder


    Here is an idea: try to explain why people voted for Hillary Clinton. Seriously.

    The explanation i hear most often is “better than Trump” though ” how better ” is often pure fantasy: as one example, a lot of people claimed to me against available evidence that Hillary was a peacenik.

    It is hard to see how more neoliberal free trade and financial free-for-all would help working people in Michigan or Wisconsin or rural Pennsylvania.

    I am happy to see that you virtuously support a higher minimum wage. So did Obama to very little effect — a signature of his political style. But Obama understood the electoral value of making populist noises; i think he tried to help Clinton make those arguments with late-hour Labor Department rule changes (timed so Republicans could overturn them, naturally; Obama style, again). I do not think Clinton could take the hint. She worried outloud about how to limit the increase in the minimum wage — revealing her instincts, i think.

    Politics is not mostly about someone’s made-up identity as an “Asian-American” or “Hispanic” or gender-neutral bathrooms. It is about who gets what when. And basically no one in America who is not already rich is getting much of anything. That is sinking in slowly, but maybe too slowly to matter.

  57. Tom

    Well, like I said multiple times, I had no illusions about Trump and what he was. I still voted for him as I knew he would avoid further wars and light a fire in the establishment that could not be contained.

    And its working. US forces are finally vacating Syria so fast that they had to bomb their own bases after escape routes were opened for them. Some bases were left so suddenly that Russian GRU was able to have a field day with the intelligence left behind and just took over the place and partied.

    Is it a perfect break, no, but so far Trump is avoiding new wars like the devil avoids holy water, and that is good because as he admits, he doesn’t like signing condolence letters or killing people…

    Hey, he at least is honest.

    Though can someone please give the Italian President’s translator an aspirin and glass of water. She needs it.

  58. Mark Pontin

    Here for NR and his ilk, some realities —

    Here’s the real Hillary Clinton interviewed in Dec. 2011, boasting “We saw, we saw, he died” after Gaddafi’s sodomization with a bayonet —

    For this regime change in Libya instigated at her behest while she was US Secretary of State — along with the attempted regime change in Libya — Clinton would be rewarded during her presidential candidacy in 2016 by more ‘donations’ from the US military-industrial complex than any other presidential candidate in American history.

    At a minimum, 30,000 are dead in Libya and in Syria over 400,000 as a result of this incompetent pyschopathic grifter’s attempt to get to the White House.

    Here’s the real Donald Trump a couple of days ago in Italy —

    The video comes with a full text transcription. The usual Trump narcissistic boasts are there, but also Trump’s claims that: “I want to bring our soldiers back home. We’re not a police force … you know, we’re in many countries, many, many countries. I–I’m embarrassed to tell you how many. I know the exact number, but I’m embarrassed to say it because it’s so foolish…we got to get out of the endless wars, we have to bring our troops back home.

    “I go to Walter Reed and I gave our purple hearts, just did it on Friday. I see the–the incredible soldiers coming home to Dover, coming home in a coffin on areas that we have nothing to do with, we have nothing to do with. And it’s heartbreaking. I sign letters all the time to parents whose son was shot in different places in the Middle East, mostly. It’s very heartbreaking to see. Very heartbreaking.”

    And so on. Now, both of these videos are politicians talking, so possibly worthless as a guide to future conduct. That said, if the choice is between:

    (a) an obvious psychopath responsible for approaching 500,000 deaths, who is too incompetent to even hide their monstrousness (watch that video).;

    (b) a narcissist possibly responsible for no deaths so far, who at least has enough sense to occasionally make the right moral noises about the Evil Empire (which is what the US now has become);

    Then, very clearly, in 2016 the American people were given a choice of poisons and picked the lesser of the two evils.

    This doesn’t even get into the vast economic and human damage that the Clintons and the neoliberal Democrat party inflicted on the US people during the 1990s, for which they were richly rewarded, nor the Obama administration’s bailout and criminal complicity with Wall Street after the 2008 GFC, nor the ongoing corruption we live with today.

  59. Mark Pontin

    @ NR:

    You wrote: ‘I read that article and it offers zero acutal data, just a couple of anecdotes from striking workers.’

    It offers actual reporting of what a half-dozen real autoworkers said when some reporters actually went out and asked them what they thought. You might ask yourself why you’re so eager to dismiss it.

    The reality is that many people like yourself want to hear the message that the masses of US people who voted against the neoliberal Democrats can safely be dismissed as racist, deplorable, etc. So naturally that’s the message you’re listening for as hard as you can. It’s a message that some people will write studies to confirm for you, too.

    It may even be true to some limited extent, but I’d caution against thinking in such simplistic binaries.

    You write: “Do you honestly think that Blizzard of Ozzz and the people like him who make up the vast majority of the Trump base care about class issues at all? Can you really make that argument with a straight face after what you saw him write toward the beginning of this comment thread?”

    Seriously? You’ve just claimed those actual interviews with autoworkers amount to ‘zero acutal data,’ but simultaneously one self-selecting troll who comes here to try and rile us libtards on this little website of Ian’s is somehow a massively significant datum indicative of all Trump’s base.

    That’s pretty inconsistent and nonsensical, if you think about it for a moment.

  60. NR

    Well, I can see–unsurprisingly–that instead of addressing the actual data provided about the racism and general hatefulness of Trump supporters–including the disgusting example provided by one of them in this very comment thread–people are, instead, desperately trying to change the subject to Hillary Clinton. Well, whatever Hillary Clinton’s faults may be–and they are many–that does not change the fact that support for Trump was based on racism and racial resentment, and not on class issues. Hillary Clinton is completely irrelevant to that point.

    Now if people want to continue to advance the false narrative that Trump supporters are good-hearted, kind, salt-of-the-earth working-class folks who don’t have a hateful bone in their bodies, and who only sadly and reluctantly voted for Trump after the Democrats’ neoliberal turn, they concluded that they can do that. But I’m not going to let that false characterization of Trump supporters pass without challenge anymore, especially when they themselves are regularly showing it to be false, as we have an example of right here.

  61. Herman

    @Eric Anderson,

    How do you explain why most people don’t get deeply involved in politics? Is it because they are stupid sheep or because they are so busy with their lives that they cannot and will not expend more energy on politics? I used to think like you, that people were selfish, stupid sheep but now I am convinced that I was wrong and that I had an unrealistic view of politics.

    Instead of just repeating myself I will post some links that have helped me change my thinking on politics. You don’t have to agree with them and you probably won’t but I just want to put this stuff out there for people to read to see that this is not just me being pessimistic. I am just trying to counter the narrative that we need to blame Baby Boomers and other groups of ordinary people for our problems.

    On the limits of populism and the folk theory of democracy:

    On the lack of influence that ordinary people have on politics.

    On partisanship bias and why even the most informed voters are sometimes misled.

    I learn heavily on work by Christopher Achen and Larry Bartels but I have not seen many good critiques of their work. A lot of their work seems to indicate that people are stupid sheep but I see the results as showing that people are not by nature highly political because they have so much going on in their lives outside of politics and in any event the political system is largely dominated by elites. If you want to blame people blame elites not ordinary Boomers.

  62. Hugh

    I know a couple of Trump true believers, and whatever the origins of their support, it has become purely tribal. It doesn’t matter what Trump does or says or how damning the information is that comes out about him. They immediately adopt whatever talking point comes out without missing a beat. For example, they were already repeating Mulvaney’s everybody does it line and calling Democrats hypocrites for criticizing Trump. It never would occur to them, or see the humor in, that their defense of Trump is that he is as big a piece of shit as the piece of shit Democrats (Hillary, Obama, Biden) they keep complaining about. When I try to understand their fixation with Trump, all I come up with is that it is a kind of know-nothingism. What most of us see as Trump’s defects, his crookedness, grifting, lying, stupidity, ignorance, racism, they see as a kind of manifestation of themselves and more specifically their anger with their lives, the world, anyone and anything that is not them. Trump is their guy. Bizarre as it is for the rest of us, they see themselves in him. Logic, facts, crimes, incontrovertible evidence, even admission of those crimes by Trump and his underlings, the US Code, the Constitution, disaster piled on disaster, none of these things matter. An attack on Trump they feel as an attack on themselves. It reconnects them to their rage, their own sense of being under attack. At the same time, their defenses of Trump are empowering. It makes them feel as if, for once, they are the ones in the know, keepers of some secret truth the rest of us don’t get and can’t know. If all this sounds incoherent, it is, but also beside the point for the Trump true believer.

  63. different clue

    Trump’s racist base was not enough to win Trump the election all by itself. Small-but-real numbers of two-time Obama voters voted for Trump in a couple of key states. The black-voter non-turnout-non-vote in Milwaukee, Wisconsin was larger than the number of votes by which Trump won Wisconsin.

    Will the DemParty bosses think about that and wonder whether nominating another Clintobama-figure will produce another such Trump victory by thin margins in key states? Or is that the secret goal of the DemParty . . . to get Trump re-elected . . . a goal they dare not state in public?

  64. Eric Anderson

    Carrying over to the open thread. I think this is an important debate that needs to be had.

  65. nihil obstet

    We live in a racist society, where racism is constantly reinforced. One of Stephen Colbert’s running jokes on The Colbert Report was “I don’t see race,” with follow-ups like “I don’t know whether you’re black or white.” We are all trained from childhood to see race as a first and frequently determinant feature. I don’t know how you overcome racism without emphasizing it, since we are mostly unconscious of how we are perceiving. An overwhelming majority of people who firmly and honestly (but inaccurately) believe they are not racist will still be influenced to judge the quality of a job done by whether they think the doer was named “John” or “D’Shawn” (or “Mary” since we’re also sexist).

    Given that, I’m skeptical of studies purporting to show that non-professional whites were “primarily” driven to vote for Trump by racism. How do you measure racism both in the study designers and in the subjects, especially given that the designers probably have strong ideas about the subjects’ racism? How do the subjects express themselves, given that their training and employment probably do not give them practice in verbal precision? How well do the researchers understand how the subjects express themselves? And even when these obstacles are overcome and racism is revealed, how do you establish that the racism was “primarily” the cause of any action. “If it’s there, it’s the strongest” is not a good assumption.

    When a candidate plays up a political feature in his speeches and the media carry on at length about it, his voters are likely to mention it when questioned, even if their decisions are primarily based on something else. How many people want to say “I’m financially insecure” as opposed to people who are willing to say, “He’s going to bring back the good times that all those people have destroyed.”

    This comment section has pretty well demonstrated how easy it is to express one’s hopes and fears as denigration of other groups.

  66. bruce wilder


    That was quite a rant, but I have to tell you that it seemed pretty tribal in its politics.

    The country was not so well-governed under Obama or the younger Bush that anyone dissatisfied with the consequences of policy failures for themselves, their families or their communities should be labeled “losers” by you for their anger, when you yourself so enjoy expressing anger about the state of politics.

    Many of the charges commonly made against Trump are themselves just narrative talking points put into the news media by professional propagandists with questionable agendas. When you use abstract language to concur with them you join the circus.

  67. bruce wilder

    @ nihil obstet

    Yes, racism pervades the American political consciousness — both the reality of prejudice and racial bigotry and the academically-inspired analysis of racial identity and power. The charge of racism carries weight across the political spectrum, because a previous political generation successfully achieved a political revolution that affirmed an ideal of political equality that extends into the details of daily economic life.

    What is the political agenda, when academics put on their robes and solemnly declare: “The 2016 campaign witnessed a dramatic polarization in the vote choices of whites based on (their level of) education. Very little of this gap can be explained by the economic difficulties faced by less-educated whites. Rather, most of the divide appears to be associated with sexism, and denialism of racism.” ??

    “denialism of racism” !?

  68. Hugh

    bruce, you are repeating my point. Trump becoming harder to defend? Pivot to everybody does it, they’re all the same. Still hard pressed? Pivot again to Obama or Hillary or Biden or Pelosi. Ian just had a thread up about false equivalencies, that there are not two sides to every argument, or even when there are, one side may be far stronger than the other. For the Trump true believers I know, facts are incidental. They are bent, discarded, or just plain ignored as needed. They thrive exactly on the false equivalencies you are promoting. Criticize Trump supporters? You must be as tribal as they are. No.

  69. Willy

    A die hard Trump supporter is not to be trifled with. Their heads are cast iron. And we all know what happens when butting heads against cast iron.

    Cambridge Analytica helped put Trump over the top by getting him votes where they wouldn’t have otherwise happened, from more thinking folks. CA used mind control techniques. These may be the droids we’re looking for.

    I’m not saying that Bernie Bros should chant “Lock Him Up”, or promise to build walls or drain swamps with no intention of ever actually doing so. But they should consider more/better pithy slogans than the skillfully corrupt manipulators certainly will.

  70. different clue

    There is no such thing as “Bernie Bros”. The “Bernie Bro” trope is a Clintonite fabrication.

  71. Willy

    I’d rather be a Bernie Bro than one of Hillary’s Crookeds or The Donalds Tools.

  72. bruce wilder


    In politics, there are always at least two sides. It isn’t a matter of false equivalencies or some other category of fallacy; it is about partisan rivalry and the potential of rotation in office to solve problems of governance.

    And, just so we are clear: I take no brief for Trump. I think I have said as much before, but you continue to interpret my remarks as a defense of Trump, and consequently miss the point of those remarks.

  73. Hugh

    “In politics, there are always at least two sides. ”

    Not really. Again it is about false equivalency. There is no Trump side, just as there is no climate denial side. The idea of “side” conveys a sense of legitimacy where there often is, and should be, none.

  74. bruce wilder

    It is certainly true that Trump’s election initiated a more intense phase in a legitimacy crisis, but that crisis has been building for more than 20 years and envelops “all sides” of the continued partisan rivalry.

    I abandoned my identification with the Democrats during Obama’s first term and that helped me to see the dynamics of the legitimacy crisis unfolding with some critical distance. Still, not sharing in TDS, I notice how weak, careless and just dumb and dishonest some of the lines of attack against Trump are. Trump presents what one might call a target-rich environment, given his apparent affinity for cynical frauds, so one has to wonder why his opponents choose to attack him on and with the charges they do. The Russia,Russia,Russia narrative pushed by the Clintonistas with help from the Intelligence establishment was both ridiculous and vaguely frightening for the level of irresponsibility in both mainstream Media and the foreign policy / intelligence establishment it presumed.

    The use of otherwise moribund campaign finance law restrictions — and rather tendentitious interpretations as to what constitutes a “contribution” — is remarkable as well.

    Your chanting “false equivalency” where it has no application anyway, since political competition has no analogue to logical fallacy, is leading you to miss the full flowering of this legitimacy crisis, enveloping as it does not just Trump but the whole political system that threw him up like a dog’s breakfast as that system failed to respond as egregious failures to govern have manifested over the last 20 years.

    The altogether not-false-at-all equivalencies are among the most interesting features of the attacks Democrats make on Trump. And, vice-versa. Whataboutism is having a field day.

    That the Clinton campaign used a foreign agent to try to get dirt on Trump from the Russians is more than richly ironic. That Clinton’s epic violation of campaign finance laws was the scandal revealed by the DNC email leak is part of the fun. That the current Ukraine-gate brouhaha turns on Biden’s corruption should not be avoided, it should be savored.

    The furor over Trump actually moving to end one of America’s pointless wars has been remarkably revealing for the spectacle of false posturing, particularly by the soi disant critics of perpetual war who apparently do not want to end even one after all.

  75. Ché Pasa

    “…moving to end…” a pointless war? Not hardly. Instead, it’s intensifying. That’s been the pattern throughout the Trump presidency. He makes a desert — or enables His Generals to do so — and calls it peace. Dozens of cities, towns and villages in Syria and Iraq and hundreds of compounds in Afghanistan have been all but leveled, tens of thousands, perhaps hundreds of thousands of people have been killed, and many more millions displaced since Trump began his regime. None of the wars have ended, resistance is as strong as ever, and the whole apparatus of war has been expanded and enhanced, not limited or restricted.

    Those who think Trump is ending endless wars have been conned.


  76. different clue


    I agree with you in spirit. I, too, would rather be a Bernie Bro than be a Jonestown Clintie or a StormTrumper.

    If there were such a thing, which there isn’t. Because ” Bernie Bro” is a deceit-based epithet of abuse invented by the Clinton Noise Machine.

  77. different clue

    Core-basic Trump supporters did not/ do not care whether Trump ends the Endless Wars or not. They care about whether Trump keeps America involved in the Endless Wars or not. Every Endless War that Trump removes America from having an ongoing-hand-in will make the demographic base who supply the majority of volunteers to America’s all-volunteer forces more and more grateful.

    The only way the Endless Wars will end is if one side or another side wins them so overwhelmingly that all the other sides give up and stop fighting.

    The CLEJ ( Cannibal Liver Eating Jihadis) and the GAJ ( Global Axis of Jihad) will never give up. The only cure for them is systematic extermination, down to the very last CLEJ member. Every Government Member of the GAJ will either have to be convinced to drop its support or have to be Cordon Sanitaired out of meaninful contribution to the GAJ. Trump is removing America from supporting the GAJ war against Syria. Unfortunately, Trump totally backs and supports the GAJ war against Yemen.

  78. The Clinton Mafia was out in force in 2016, and Warren was right to knuckle under and stay away from Bernie. Today the Clinton Mafia is beaten and bedraggled- it’s not a comparison.

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