The horizon is not so far as we can see, but as far as we can imagine

The Uncertain Future and the American Election

Globe on FireI want to say something simple about Clinton and Trump as President, and about the future this election cycle presages.

With Clinton, you know pretty much what you’re going to get. She has a track record: She’s a neoliberal, neo-conservative. She’ll throw the left some bones, especially on identity politics issues, but basically she’s the status quo candidate. Slightly to the left of Obama on domestic issues, but well within the neoliberal consensus, significantly to his right on foreign policy issues.

Trump has issues he keeps hitting again and again. Trade and immigration are the big ones. Generally, Trump looks at most issues as profit-loss statements. “Is America winning from this trade deal? Is America spending more on NATO than it is worth?” But Trump’s said a lot of things, and his track record from private business says less about how he’ll run things than one might like, especially as his long term strategy is to “hire the best people,” and who knows who those will be?

Nassim Taleb, author of the Black Swan, has pointed out that people at the bottom or people who are heading there under the status quo and have little cushion, need volatility. If you’re at the bottom or near, and you can’t stand the status quo (aka, things getting slowly worse for you), then taking a flier on someone like Trump is a rational decision.

On the other hand, if you still have something to lose, or you feel that Trump threatens you directly (because you’re brown and think he’ll be worse than Obama on such issues (remember Obama has deported more people than any President)), well the status quo is preferable to change; to volatility, whose direction you can predict.

It’s not that Trump’s trade policy is insane, or that NATO is wonderful as it stands (it’s made us more likely to get into a nuclear exchange with Russia), it’s that Trump himself seems unpredictable. You don’t know who the “best people” are, and so on

But none of that matters if your life is already unbearable. You need a chance, any chance, and you know you won’t get it from Clinton. You might from Trump. He is more likely to cause substantial changes than Clinton, and thus change the matrix of winners and losers. You might be a loser who wins under Trump.

This is the calculus behind Trump. It will be the calculus behind the next nativist populist if Trump fails or fails to deliver. The more people there are whose lives are trash, or who see themselves in inevitable decline, the more people there are who are willing to take a flier on something–anything–which will upset the current way of doing things.

This is much of why Sanders, a Socialist, did so well. It is why Brexit. It is why Jeremy Corbyn in England. It’s why so many Scots want to leave the UK, or Catalonians, Spain.

People whose lives suck, or whose lives are facing near-to-certain decline, will take a flier on anyone who seems genuinely committed to changing the status quo.

Trump is far from the buffoon people make him out to be, but he is also a very flawed candidate. If he fails, he will be replaced and the people who compete to replace him (and there will be many), will include amongst their numbers some who are very disciplined and who understand that all the gifts the status quo bankers and hedge-funders and so on can give them are nothing compared to pure power, the adulation of the masses, and the sight of those “lords of the universe” on their bellies crawling to lick the boots of their new master. (The contempt with which Putin treats oligarchs who do not do as he wishes is instructive.)

I believe it is now too late to “self-correct.” We are going to have one of three outcomes in most countries:

  1. An oligarchical, dystopian police state reminiscent of cyberpunk novels, if the status quo wins
  2. A right-wing populist government of some form or another
  3. A left wing populist government of some form or another

This is only the beginning. I am amused by just how worked up people are over Trump, because the sequence of events made inevitable by 40+ years of neoliberal policy is only beginning to unfold.

You can have your cyberpunk dystopia, you can have your right-wing populist, or you can have someone like Corbyn or Sanders.

There aren’t any other options, yet, on the table.


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68 Comments

  1. markfromireland

    There are two presumptions that most commentators here make. The first is that the liberal democracy is the natural order of things, the second is that there is an inherent link, or compatibility, between democracy and liberalism. Neither of these are necessarily true.

    I suspect that the second of the three outcomes you list is the most likely for most countries. I also suspect that the form of government will be republican perhaps something along the lines of the Venetian republic or perhaps something along the lines of what in a Russian context is called “managed democracy”.

    And yes the “contempt with which Putin treats oligarchs who do not do as he wishes is instructive”, very instructive but this is a mistake that merchant princes, bankers, and so on make again and again. They forget or ignore the fact that the person or persons who control what Weber called “legitimate violence” are the ones who have true power in any society. Much is made of the growth of private armies, and the growth of private “security” firms. But these organisations all have a cripplingly short “tail” which is why I think that even if it comes to pass your first alternative is unlikely to last long.

  2. Ivory Bill Woodpecker

    I seem to recall the partisans of both Fascism (the choice #2 of its day) and Communism (the choice #3 of its day) confidently predicted that the soft, decadent men of money would fall before the thrusting power of their lofty virtue and sheer testosterone.

    Did that happen?

    As for Putin–he’s one man, and his skin is not steel plate, and virtue does not confer immunity to poison. As the late, great Ambrose Bierce noted, “An absolute monarchy is one in which the sovereign does as he pleases so long as he pleases the assassins.

    Putin should consider employing a food taster, or the modern chemical equivalent, though as he is a shrewd fellow, he probably is doing that already.

    But please do go on, all of you prophets of doom. You amuse me.

  3. Ian Welsh

    And how long did communism last? And how long did FDR’s evisceration of the oligarch’s last?

    This is a cycle, but it is not just a cycle. Those who can only understand their own lives are lost.

  4. bruce wilder

    During the whole post-WWII period, economic conditions have been good predictors of who wins the Presidential election. G0od economy, people vote the status quo and the incumbent. Clinton represents incumbency even if she is not technically the incumbent.

    What’s strange or unusual is that the American economy is doing well in some respects — employment is up over what it had been — but wages have been falling or stagnating for a long time. Home ownership is at a 50 year low I remembering reading the other day in a headline.

    Most people do not feel immediately threatened by not having a job, but wages have been stagnating. Inflation as conventionally measured is low, but rents are rising and more people now have to rent. Medical care is again rising in cost.

    I went with a friend to get a new car yesterday. Interest rates are so low, you cannot really afford to buy a car outright, but leasing a car really puts you in a powerless and precarious position vis a vis the power of the corporate bureaucracies leasing and financing and insuring. So much paperwork! So many hidden fees and petty scams. That kind of misery leaks into attitudes, even if most people don’t connect that kind of thing to politics or the things governments can and should do.

    If unemployment were high, and misery more acute, I wonder if the electorate would be more risk-averse.

    And, what happens when the bottom drops out after the election? Clinton still seems to me to be highly likely to get elected easily. But, starting out with sky-high negatives, and under the kind of unconstrained assault Trump can push, she may be built for a catastrophic loss of legitimacy in the face of any catastrophic failure: a market crash or sinking an aircraft carrier or something like that.

  5. Duder

    Ian you are talking to a wall. Liberals don’t believe that history moves in cycles. They believe in “progress”, in the ever increasing march of progress, ever upward. Sure there may be set backs here and there, but the future is always brighter than the past. That is how the fools dupe themselves into believe that the current bubble will never end and growth will increase forever. Until it does not, and they jump out the window, or find someone to scapegoat- the poor, the commies, the jews, the blacks, the mexicans, the russians. They learn to love fascism once they are done grumbling and realize they will never return to power without the left of the black hand. Liberal psychology is really not that complicated. It moves in cycles like a bad marriage.

  6. Ivory Bill Woodpecker

    Well, the longest-lived Communist regime was the USSR, so 74 years (1917-1991). China is still technically Communist, and it’s roughly 67 years old. North Korea’s Communist state began in 1948 (a year before China’s), so if it lasts until 2023, it will become the longest-lived Communist regime.

    Capitalist oligarchy with a liberal veneer has lasted, oh, at least three centuries, depending on when you define its beginning. So far, it’s proven better at survival. Most of the world’s significant nations use one variant or another of that system, Russia and China being the only exceptions which matter. But their elites are only human, and decadence erodes discipline sooner or later, for decadence is a species of chaos, while discipline is a species of order–and Mommie Dearest Nature prefers chaos (2nd Law of Thermodynamics and all that). 😈

  7. DMC

    While preserving some notions of a socialist workers party, the North Korean government has considered its ideology to be “Juche”, which boils down to “the Divine Right of Kims”. Its been a couple of decades since its been legal to own the works of Marx in NK. The Vietnamese and Cubans, on the other hand are still pretty much Communist but I concur that the Chinese have become pretty much just authoritarian statists with a Red veneer.

  8. Ian Welsh

    Well, IBW, we’ll see. Oh we will. Well, unless I miss my guess about your age cohort, you may not. It’s easy to be sanguine when you’ll die before the worst of it.

    WWII was plenty doom and gloom for the people caught in it and what’s coming is likely to be far worse.

    I wonder what “capitalism” will look like afterwards.

    What environmental event contributed to the French Revolution?

    As a percentage of the population the number of jobs has not recovered. Unemployment rate is not always a good metric for this stuff.

  9. Ivory Bill Woodpecker

    @Ian: I’ve completed 53 solar orbits.

    I don’t know if any environmental event contributed to the French Revolution. Did such an event contribute?

  10. Ivory Bill Woodpecker

    IIRC, Nietzsche said, “Mistrust those in whom the impulse to punish is strong.”

    If old Fred is correct, I’m finding quite a few untrustworthy folks here.

    Now that I think about, a rage to punish “sinners” is rather a defining trait for radicals of Right and Left alike.

    I often think of myself as eccentric, but visiting sites of radical politics makes me feel normal.

  11. DMC

    Bad harvests definitely caused a spike in the price of wheat, which lead in turn to a rise in the price of bread, which lead to Marie-Antoinette to make her famous remark about brioche.

  12. Guest

    Weren’t there food shortages? ( cf qu’ils mangent de la brioche or however that goes that is often attributed to Marie Antoinette , perhaps incorrectly but I would assume the context of the era was applicable). My general impression of that era was of heightened inequality between the best off and the masses.

  13. Guest

    Sorry, dNC must have been typing slightly faster than me.

  14. rkka

    IBW,

    The last time we were in a situation like this, we elected a guy with a second-rate intellect (which is no insult. A second-rate Ship of the Line was a large and powerful warship) and a first-rate temperament.

    Hilliary and Donald are second-rate intellects too. They’re definitely smart people, just not Einstein or Hawking.

    Temperamentally though…

    That’s why our present prospects in this time of global crisis are rather worse than they were last time around, in the 1930s.

  15. Ivory Bill Woodpecker

    @DMC: Thanks. 🙂

    @rkka: The Donald is smart? Well, I suppose so, if one counts a highly developed low cunning which makes him an effective grifter, but I now assume the real brains behind the Trump Phenomenon is/are Putin and/or one or more of Putin’s subordinates.

  16. RJMeyers

    “An oligarchical, dystopian police state reminiscent of cyberpunk novels, if the status quo wins”

    This especially is what I think a lot of the better off professionals who support Hillary don’t understand. The current system is failing more and more people, and the only way to keep the neoliberal/neocon consensus afloat is increasing repression. Computers, cell phones, cloud databases, etc. will make that much easier than in the past.

    Ben King (among many others) on Twitter has been mentioning “turnkey fascism” as something we are approaching–the apparatus for abuse is there in the government, all it takes is someone with the motive to use it. And it goes beyond that, as the private sector could be mobilized even further than it already is.

    I’ve started worrying what my social media history will expose me to in the future. Someone dedicated enough (aided by some fancy algorithms) could link a lot of bits of things I’ve said over time and feed it into a new set of McCarthy hearings. Thankfully I’m no one important, so I’m likely to be ok.

  17. RJMeyers

    IBW:

    “@rkka: The Donald is smart? Well, I suppose so, if one counts a highly developed low cunning which makes him an effective grifter, but I now assume the real brains behind the Trump Phenomenon is/are Putin and/or one or more of Putin’s subordinates.”

    He’s extremely good at manipulating people and institutions. He gets people to work for him, to trust him. He knows how to get media attention–look at how he’s been dominating the news cycle. He (so far) is able to let scandalous statements just roll right off him. You may call this low cunning, but its supremely difficult to perform in these areas at the level he does and get away with it for so long.

    Don’t underestimate him. His intelligence is high, but narrowly focused–it just happens to be focused in the extremely dangerous area of gaining trust and manipulating people. “Making deals.”

  18. markfromireland

    “I now assume the real brains behind the Trump Phenomenon is/are Putin and/or one or more of Putin’s subordinates.”

    Oh ffs at this point we need an amendment to Godwin’s law. Oh no wait Putin is the same as Hitler.

    Next we can expect some kind of half-assed reference to IBW being 53 – oh no wait we’ve already had it.

    Followed by some reference to a deity with a humorous name.

    And let’s not forget the mandatory cutesy .gif link.

    I know let’s have someone point out that the Clintons have been laundering Russian money through their foundation just to make the resident Clinton shill’s day. Anyone?

  19. Bill Hicks

    I’m one of those for whom a Trump victory is a risk–yet I am rooting for him to win (but NOT voting for him) hoping that he first takes down the Clinton machine once and for all, but then proves to be so inept at governing that he manages to discredit right wing populism for at least a generation or so. It’s the only hope we have left to avoid the scenario described in this post.

  20. Robert Dudek

    We already have a right-wing populist government in Poland. And so far, I have to say, that its bark is worse than its bite.

  21. Bark matters, though. In a very real way, bark is bite.

  22. tony

    The meme that 14 million jobs have been created since the Great Recession is constantly trotted out as a sign of how the labor market has healed, but these folks forget to add a detail: since the Great Recession, the US population has grown by 16.5 million. Turns out, jobs growth was smaller than population growth! So per capita – for each of the 323.2 million people in the US – there are now fewer jobs than at the bottom of the Great Recession.

    http://www.nakedcapitalism.com/2016/06/wolf-richter-what-makes-this-jobs-report-so-truly-ugly.html

    Employment is not up, btw, population is.

  23. Ivory Bill Woodpecker

    “I know let’s have someone point out that the Clintons have been laundering Russian money through their foundation just to make the resident Clinton shill’s day. Anyone?”

    That’s right, patriot Mark! Keep telling the truth about them evil Clintons! They laundered that money in between the night they joined their fellow Illuminati at the Bohemian Grove to get their orders from the little gray space aliens, and the night they sacrificed three Girl Scouts to the heathen moose god Allah, ‘coz they’re Double Seekrit Mooselims just like the Kenyan Usurper! Yeah, he’s a moose god! Why do ya think they call’em Mooselims? Whaddaya mean there are no moose in Arabia? Don’t sass me, boy! I heard that on Alex Jones’s show AND read it on the website of the holy martyr Breitbart, so it’s the truth!”

    Ahem.

    Ian did indirectly ask my age. Would our resident cranky leprechaun have wanted me to be rude to our host? Also, would he want me to take the actual God’s name in vain, instead of invoking the Ascended Madoka?

  24. Pelham

    The “Trump is unhinged” narrative of the media may soon begin to gain traction, and I say this because I’ve noticed Fox News is now beginning to part ways with Trump over his criticism of the Gold Star father who appeared at the Dem convention. The reason is trivial, but the Fox turn is significant.

    Also, Trump is now 7 points behind Clinton in polls after the Dem convention “bump,” and that being the last of the conventions, the Hillary lead may not soon fade. Of course, the debates will be the real test.

    Other things being equal, though, I doubt there are enough Americans who comprehend just how deeply screwed they really are to put Trump over the top. Which would be a shame in a way, as Trump oddly reminds me of Franklin Roosevelt, the last president who actually was just a bit unhinged and in a way that allowed him to think well outside the box and get some things done during the Depression that wouldn’t have even occurred to conventional thinkers.

    Clinton, on the other hand, is very much like Herbert Hoover, who wasn’t the uncaring brute popularly depicted but rather a highly intelligent engineer of the possible who was wholly inadequate to the challenge he faced. Stir in a generous helping of money-grubbing corruption and you have Hillary Clinton.

  25. markfromireland

    But the untold story behind that story is one that involves not just the Russian president, but also a former American president and a woman who would like to be the next one.

    At the heart of the tale are several men, leaders of the Canadian mining industry, who have been major donors to the charitable endeavors of former President Bill Clinton and his family. Members of that group built, financed and eventually sold off to the Russians a company that would become known as Uranium One.

    Beyond mines in Kazakhstan that are among the most lucrative in the world, the sale gave the Russians control of one-fifth of all uranium production capacity in the United States. Since uranium is considered a strategic asset, with implications for national security, the deal had to be approved by a committee composed of representatives from a number of United States government agencies. Among the agencies that eventually signed off was the State Department, then headed by Mr. Clinton’s wife, Hillary Rodham Clinton.

    As the Russians gradually assumed control of Uranium One in three separate transactions from 2009 to 2013, Canadian records show, a flow of cash made its way to the Clinton Foundation. Uranium One’s chairman used his family foundation to make four donations totaling $2.35 million. Those contributions were not publicly disclosed by the Clintons, despite an agreement Mrs. Clinton had struck with the Obama White House to publicly identify all donors. Other people with ties to the company made donations as well.

    And shortly after the Russians announced their intention to acquire a majority stake in Uranium One, Mr. Clinton received $500,000 for a Moscow speech from a Russian investment bank with links to the Kremlin that was promoting Uranium One stock.

    At the time, both Rosatom and the United States government made promises intended to ease concerns about ceding control of the company’s assets to the Russians. Those promises have been repeatedly broken, records show.

    Read in full here: Cash Flowed to Clinton Foundation Amid Russian Uranium Deal – The New York Times

    or there’s this story from the Wall Street Journal:

    By 2012 the vice president of the Skolkovo Foundation, Conor Lenihan—who had previously partnered with the Clinton Foundation—recorded that Skolkovo had assembled 28 Russian, American and European “Key Partners.” Of the 28 “partners,” 17, or 60%, have made financial commitments to the Clinton Foundation, totaling tens of millions of dollars, or sponsored speeches by Bill Clinton.

    Russians tied to Skolkovo also flowed funds to the Clinton Foundation. Andrey Vavilov, the chairman of SuperOx, which is part of Skolkovo’s nuclear-research cluster, donated between $10,000 and $25,000 (donations are reported in ranges, not exact amounts) to the Clinton’s family charity. Skolkovo Foundation chief and billionaire Putin confidant Viktor Vekselberg also gave to the Clinton Foundation through his company, Renova Group.

    Amid all the sloshing of Russia rubles and American dollars, however, the state-of-the-art technological research coming out of Skolkovo raised alarms among U.S. military experts and federal law-enforcement officials. Research conducted in 2012 on Skolkovo by the U.S. Army Foreign Military Studies Program at Fort Leavenworth declared that the purpose of Skolkovo was to serve as a “vehicle for world-wide technology transfer to Russia in the areas of information technology, biomedicine, energy, satellite and space technology, and nuclear technology.”

    Moreover, the report said: “the Skolkovo Foundation has, in fact, been involved in defense-related activities since December 2011, when it approved the first weapons-related project—the development of a hypersonic cruise missile engine. . . . Not all of the center’s efforts are civilian in nature.”

    Technology can have multiple uses—civilian and military. But in 2014 the Boston Business Journal ran an op-ed placed by the FBI, and noted that the agency had sent warnings to technology and other companies approached by Russian venture-capital firms. The op-ed—under the byline of Lucia Ziobro, an assistant special agent at the FBI’s Boston office—said that “The FBI believes the true motives of the Russian partners, who are often funded by their government, is to gain access to classified, sensitive, and emerging technology from the companies.”

    Ms. Ziobro also wrote that “The [Skolkovo] foundation may be a means for the Russian government to access our nation’s sensitive or classified research development facilities and dual-use technologies with military and commercial application.”

    To anyone who was paying attention, the FBI’s warnings should have come as little surprise. A State Department cable sent to then-Secretary Clinton (and obtained via WikiLeaks) mentioned possible “dual use and export control concerns” related to research and development technology ventures with Moscow. And in its own promotional literature Skolkovo heralded the success of its development of the Atlant hybrid airship.

    “Particularly noteworthy is Atlant’s ability to deliver military cargoes,” boasts the Made in Skolkovo publication: “The introduction of this unique vehicle is fully consistent with the concept of creating a mobile army and opens up new possibilities for mobile use of the means of radar surveillance, air and missile defense, and delivery of airborne troops.”

    Even if it could be proven that these tens of millions of dollars in Clinton Foundation donations by Skolkovo’s key partners played no role in the Clinton State Department’s missing or ignoring obvious red flags about the Russian enterprise, the perception would still be problematic. (Neither the Clinton campaign nor the Clinton Foundation responded to requests for comment.) What is known is that the State Department recruited and facilitated the commitment of billions of American dollars in the creation of a Russian “Silicon Valley” whose technological innovations include Russian hypersonic cruise-missile engines, radar surveillance equipment, and vehicles capable of delivering airborne Russian troops.

    A Russian reset, indeed.

    Read in full here: The Clinton Foundation, State and Kremlin Connections – WSJ

    The Government Accountability Institute have a report (PDF) here: Report – Skolkvovo .docx – Report-Skolkvovo-08012016.pdf

  26. markfromireland

    Three links in my last comment – sorry Ian, could you please release it from comment purgatory?

    TIA

  27. markfromireland

    @ Pelham August 2, 2016

    I agree with you about Hoover.

    “Stir in a generous helping of money-grubbing corruption and you have Hillary Clinton”

    It’s the fact that she’s a war monger that I find more worrying. As a general proposition I think it’s better to be bankrupt than to be dying of radiation sickness a fate that is far more likely should Clinton become president. Not that either prospect appeals mind you …

  28. wendy davis

    Ian: if you care to, you can change the wordpress default numbers of links before one ha to go into moderation. In the left upper corner, choose WP admin> settings> discussion>comment moderation.

    Jill Stein just announced Ajamu Baraka as her running mate, so I may just change my mind and vote for a Presidential ticket in the end (smile).

  29. realitychecker

    Sigh. Will our species somehow manage to survive long enough to ever realize that “feelings” are of trivial importance when compared to more pragmatic things like economic well-being and, um, that thing we used to call freedom (not to mention that even more quaint old notion once known as the rule of law)? Maslow, anyone?

    I see HiLiary as trying to ride the “feeling train” all the way to ultimate power, while I see Trump deriding the primacy of “feelings” in the modern neoliberal political calculus (and properly so, IMO, since even the most deranged among us should be able to see that we have let political correctness go WAAAY too far when we so casually accepted the concept of “microaggressions” as being a legitimate thing in a supposed-to-be free society).

    So, even though I am not worried about my own personal survival under the status quo, I am willing to maintain an open mind about Trump because I believe our society needs a helluva reality check about what our priorities should be. And we won’t ever get that reality check from a Clinton or from anybody else of their persuasion. Maybe we will from a hardhead like Trump, who actually has had to deal with hard facts and specific numbers in his career.

    I am in that age cohort that will certainly die before our major societal dysfunctions get significantly corrected, but I do have an abiding love and respect for regular folks, so I want them to have a chance to see the kind of society we have all been promised since childhood.

    The kind of society where merit and focused effort counts for more than constant individual mewlings.

    The kind of society where liars and cheaters get punished, or at least forcefully corrected and shunned, not handed the keys to the kingdom.

  30. BlizzardOfOz

    Re: “warmonger”. Reading David Irving’s “Churchill’s War”, it’s evident that rarely has anyone bested Churchill for warmongering. The American ruling class idolizes Churchill however, and sees his behavior as heroic courage and that of his more cautious opponents as contemptible weakness. Bush Jr even referred to Saddam Hussein as “The Dictator”, exactly how Churchill referred to Hitler. Was he LARPing as Churchill?

    The reality is that Churchill was a reckless demagogue and a drunk. Worse, he was in bad financial straits, which led him to accept the patronage of a shadowy international cabal. He’s credited for winning the war, but the result was the sudden loss of the empire his country had built over centuries, and the loss of not just Poland (on whose behalf Britain allegedly entered the war), but all of Eastern Europe to the bloodthirsty Bolsheviks for 2 generations. To call it a Pyrrhic victory would be an understatement.

    The edifice of self-serving lies built by the Allies after WW2 is crumbling. We should all thank Trump for exposing the bankruptcy of the two-party duopoly while there’s still time to change course.

  31. markfromireland

    @ BlizzardOfOz August 2, 2016

    Nice attempt at changing topic. However:

    To call it a Pyrrhic victory would be an understatement.

    To get through World War II with out being defeated or occupied either by the Germans or the Soviets was a major achievement. That’s before we get into them occupying part of the major beligerent power.

    It takes a singularly inept type of buffoon to try to pretend otherwise. But as I say nice attempt at changing the topic. Bit better than your usual trolling in fact – been going to nightschool?

  32. Ian Welsh

    I’d love to Wendy, but the fact is that it stops a LOT of spam.

  33. markfromireland

    Ian,

    Further to Wendy Davis’ comment, please please please consider using the more tag when posting. And pretty pretty pretty please with sugar on top please start using another template. You can get lots of superb templates free gratis and for nothing from wordpress.org and that 100 comments bug will go away.

    Installing a new template is dead easy these days – honest.

  34. wendy davis

    @ Ian: I was about to say that some ‘Askimet’ thingie blocks most spam at my home website, but it may be due to the fact that I’d bought an upgrade so I could tinker with css codes and such, and of course it turned out to be ‘akismet’, lol. But then, I did that brain-training memory course online, Luminosity? I failed, and got worse, they said. But one day I did happen to notice in an email that the thang was called ‘Lumosity’, so….there is that, heh.

    Anyhoo, you can read this, see what you make of it. The More break thingie is on the dashboard of the Old Blogging software (thru Chrome only), dunno about the teeny-bopper turquoise ‘easier’ one. a dotted line between two solid lines. When that one went on line, the citizens rallied in forums, and the Word press hug team said: stfu.

    https://wordpress.org/plugins/akismet/

  35. different clue

    @BlizzardOfOz,

    If the GermaNazi Hitlerians had won their war, they would have exterminated the Poles out of existence in order to re-fill the vacated land with German settlers. But since the GermaNazi Hitlerians lost their war, the Polish nation continued on in existence un-exterminated.

    Poland lived . . . to survive under several decades of communist oppression . . . but it lived. And after enough patient survival and then successful uprising, Poland lives free today. So the victory was not pyrrhic for Poland. It was existential. It made the difference between extermination and non-extermination.

    The Nazi Holocaust of the Jews and the RomaSinti was only the first of several Holocausts planned for several nationloads of people in Eastern Europe.

  36. Pelham

    @ markfromireland

    Thanks and fully agreed.

    In fact, I had just hit the button on my comment when it occurred to me that I should have highlighted Clinton’s bloody hands ahead of or instead of her money-grubbing.

  37. XFR

    Capitalist oligarchy with a liberal veneer has lasted, oh, at least three centuries, depending on when you define its beginning. So far, it’s proven better at survival.

    That would be the OP’s option 1. (Though the veneer’s been peeling quite a bit lately.) So was there a point to this observation, or were you just trying to imply Ian was asserting something he wasn’t?

  38. XFR

    @rkka: The Donald is smart? Well, I suppose so, if one counts a highly developed low cunning which makes him an effective grifter, but I now assume the real brains behind the Trump Phenomenon is/are Putin and/or one or more of Putin’s subordinates.

    So just what induced Trump, at the tender young age of 70, to sell his soul to those perfidious Russkies then? Was it the promise of fame? Riches? Women? Trump seems to have covered all those bases pretty well in his life to date, no? And just how, exactly, are they expecting to keep their Manchurian POTUS on their lead after he’s sworn in? Implanted nanobots?

    IBW pushing this flaming drivel, BOO citing a convicted Holocaust denier…did someone spike the water cooler here?

  39. hvd

    Isn’t it ironic that the Putin loving Nazi fascist candidate is getting killed in the polls for not showing enough deference to our noble warriors fighting in glorious wars to protect the Homeland?

  40. BlizzardOfOz

    markfromireland,
    If the goal was to avoid being occupied, they could have just stayed out of the war. All Hitler’s territorial ambitions were to the east. So far from wanting to attack Britain he had an almost sentimental affection for the English. That’s not to say the threat wasn’t legitimate given German strength and Nazi ideology. Anyway, I won’t keep posting on this as it’s off topic.

  41. Lisa

    MFI: “To get through World War II with out being defeated or occupied either by the Germans or the Soviets was a major achievement. That’s before we get into them occupying part of the major beligerent power.”

    That was far more due to the skills and efforts of three people: Dowding, Alan Brook and Montgomery. He himself was a disaster are in just about everything he touched.
    The UK only managed to start moving forward in the war when Brook finally got him under control.
    Churchill had nothing to do with the long years Dowding (and some others) put in to give the UK the best air defence system in the world, that broke the Luftwaffe.

    A racist and imperialist through and through (eg hated the Indians) he also was responsible for:
    “Operation Unthinkable was a code name of two related plans of a conflict between the Western Allies and the Soviet Union. Both were ordered by British Prime Minister Winston Churchill in 1945 and developed by the British Armed Forces’ Joint Planning Staff at the end of World War II in Europe.”
    One war not even over and he was thinking of the next one…..

    A major player in the start of WW1 (see the Sleepwalkers), responsible for the disaster at Gallipoli …the list goes on and on.

    I also blame him for the critical Battle of The Atlantic going on for so long (the allies should have won it 6-12 earlier than they did), though to be fair there was a lot of blame to pass around on that one, especially the US & UK airforces living in their strategic bombing fantasy land.
    You know something has gone badly wrong when it took the personal intervention of Roosevelt to get a few desperately needed VLR planes allocated to it.

    So overall, Churchill is a fail ….. except that the British establishment would have made a deal with Hitler in 1940 without him. A UK out of the war would have meant a longer and bloodier war between Germany and the USSR and as long as the US did Lend Lease to them a Soviet win across all of Europe. On the other hand without that US LL, then a stalemate and a settlement would have been the most likely with German dominance of western Europe until it finally fell apart.

    So he got one thing right in a long litany of failure.

  42. Hugh

    We have until 2030 to be well on our way to solving the issues of overpopulation and its effects on the planet: global warming, pollution and environmental degradation, ecology disruption and destruction, and resource exhaustion. And when I say “we” I mean mostly developed countries. The deadline for a worldwide response was probably something like 30 to 40 years ago.

    This means “we” need to start work on these multiple existential crises six to eight years before 2030, and that in turn means we need to have serious public discussions on them four to six years before that. Why such long lead times? Well, they’re really not that long. You need to develop a consensus, come up with a design for what is arguably the biggest project in human history, and start creating the means to implement it. If you do the math, you see that we have been 10 and 14 years, or between now and 2020, to get our act together.

    I don’t think we will make it. These issues aren’t on the table. They aren’t even in the room. As for the more immediate problems of kleptocracy, wealth inequality, and class war. Kleptocracy is still out of bounds and goes unmentioned. Wealth inequality is treated as an odd and perhaps unfortunate natural phenomenon, and class war is trivialized.

    Yet to get to a point where we can deal with the great looming problems of our age and to our species, we must first deal with these immediate problems, and we aren’t. Instead we are discussing the relative merits of two shit Presidential candidates in the US. Look at these problems, their size, their urgency, then look at them. I think your reaction, like mine, is “We are so screwed.” And it isn’t just us. The rest of the world is facing the same problems, both immediate and coming. The developing world is already pretty much a deadman walking. It doesn’t have the wealth or social institutions to deal with what’s coming. The developed countries do, but they aren’t using them. Europe, China, and Japan are all slow motion train wrecks. Europe is fragmenting. China is trapped between the diminishing returns of growth and the series of bubbles which that growth created. And Japan is caught in secular stagnation.

    So let me put this as simply as I can. If you vote for Trump or Clinton, you are voting for the death of your children. Does that clarify matters? If you are Chinese, Japanese, European, or developing world, and support the current regime, you are doing the same thing.

  43. Ian Welsh

    I use Akismet. It is insufficient by itself, having failed and let thru thousands of spam on one occasion, causing my hosting company to freak out and freeze the site.

    Yes, I need to update the theme, in particular it needs to be mobile friendly.

  44. different clue

    I found a comment over at Sic Semper Tyrannis by commenter ( and sometimes guest poster) David Habakkuk that seemed so valuable that I will copy-paste the whole thing here so that people can give it the slow and careful readification and ponderization which I believe it merits.
    ( David Habakkuk is a Welsh-ancestry Great Britisher with an interest and some knowledge of East European, Soviet and post-Soviet affairs.

    David Habakkuk said in reply to Edward…
    Edward,

    As a Brit, this is not my election. But while I am completely persuaded by the Colonel’s analysis of Trump, I do think that this is a case for ‘lesser evil’ voting.

    On an earlier thread, I picked up on a paper by the historian and former policy planner William R. Polk, to which Brigadier Ali referred us back in November 2014.

    I see that on Polk’s website one can find not only this paper, which is entitled ‘Strategy and Tactics: Is America Losing Its Way?’, but also a range of other materials on issues concerned with nuclear weapons, Ukraine, the Middle East etc.

    All this material should I think be of interest to people interested in deciding who, in this election, is the ‘lesser evil’.

    (See http://www.williampolk.com/articles.html .)

    A hair-raising – if comic, in a Strangelovian kind of way – passage relates to Polk’s description of how, after Khrushchev’s withdrawal of the missiles from Cuba on 28 October 1962, he participated in a ‘war game’ organised by the Kennedy Administration, which dealt with what would have happened if the missiles had not been withdrawn.

    In this, the ‘Blue Team’ – the United States – “took out” a Russian city with nuclear weapons.

    After deliberating, the ‘Red Team’ – of which Polk was a member, concluded that the only possible Russian response was essentially that recommended by General Turgidson to President Merkin Muffley in the film, in reverse: an ‘immediate and all-out nuclear bombardment of the United States’.

    A central lesson which Polk is trying to drive home, all these years later, is that ‘the first lesson to be learned in this near catastrophe was try to understand the opponent’s point of view.’

    Put like that, of course, there is a danger that it sounds as though ‘empathy’ need imply ‘sympathy’.

    Actually, as the other two case studies he discusses – Somali pirates and jihadists – illustrate, that need not be the case at all.

    A serious attempt to understand how people see things may make one inclined to conciliate people – it may also make you convinced you have no option but to exterminate them.

    Sometimes, a combination of the two approaches is apposite (see, for example, current Russian strategy in Syria.’

    It is a case-by-case matter.

    However, neither the Clintons, nor any of those associated with them, have ever displayed the slightest indication of a realisation that, in relation to nuclear threats, the boot is now, as it were, on the other foot.

    Traditionally sceptical about Western notions of ‘deterrence’, confronted with the collapse of their conventional power, the Russians abandoned their earlier repudiation of ‘first-use’.

    It is not highly likely, but it is perfectly possible, in the light of Western policy both in regard to Ukraine and Syria, that at some point Putin might find himself confronting the same problem as the Kennedy Administration faced more than half-a century ago.

    Do you climb down, with all the problems that might involve, or do you implement nuclear threats?

    When I heard Hillary Clinton comparing Putin’s actions over Crimea to Hitler’s takeover of the Sudentenland, I knew that this woman was not simply infinitely morally contemptible, but stupid, ignorant, and plain dangerous.

    She displays a total inability even to try to ‘understand the opponent’s point of view.’

    And then Margaret Steinfels explained to me that ‘Perhaps her foreign policy tendencies are simply leftovers from 1950s Cold War America (we did have to hide under our desks during air raid drills.)’

    If indeed new Cuba-style crises may be managed by someone who jumped out of silly Goldwaterite Republican views on foreign policy into silly Vietnam-era leftism, and has now found a peculiar toxic combination of both, heaven help us.

    Brezhnevism did not work for the Soviet Union – and it will not work for the United States, or indeed Britain.

    (Although, ironically, Teresa May could be less ‘Brezhnevite’ then any of the possible alternatives.)

    Reply 02 August 2016 at 01:27 PM

  45. markfromireland

    @ BlizzardOfOz August 2, 2016 – really you need to stop posting lying crap. Particularly easily refutable lying crap such as “All Hitler’s territorial ambitions were to the east.” And don’t bother quoting that lying shit David Irving at me either.

  46. markfromireland

    @Lisa – read what I wrote please. At no point did I make any reference to Churchill, I’m well aware of his failings I’m also well aware of his successes. Not least facing down the collaborationists in the British establishment and rallying Britain at a time it was staring defeat and occupation in the face.

    As to “unthinkable” – you’re making a very typical amateurs’ mistake. Given the circumstances then prevailing it would have been unthinkable and irresponsible not to have had what was never more than a sketchy contingency plan. I suggest you go away and read the equivalent STAVKA documents which are now in the public domain.

  47. markfromireland

    @Ian – there’s nothing wrong with with WordPress’ own bundled theme “2016” it’s a very solid piece of code and not bad looking at all and yes mobile friendly is more and more important. There’re lots of very good themes available on their site.

  48. markfromireland

    @ XFR August 2, 2016

    Nope it’s not the water. IBW is the resident Clinton shill.

    B0O on the other hand is a sad sack who sits there posting extreme right wing nonsense spiced with revisionist “history”. He only does it to get attention.

  49. Spinoza

    Tell all you learned types something, I have my doubts about the Clintons and their Neolib courtiers doing anything on “identity politics”. Leave aside the fact that leftist economics would, by itself, vastly improve the lives of the disproportionately working class non white populations. Just look at the prison industry. Or the welfare bill, in which blatantly racist propaganda was used to pass it. It would be too long to go through but suffice it to say that the Clintons have a pretty shitty record on issues of concern to minorties. And thats just in this country! Gays and upper class white women might do well, possibly, but only insofar as they are rich and connected. Working class women and LGBTQ’s are, like the rest of the working class, fucked.

    Trump terrifies me. I live in the South, of a mixed racial heritage and you can see his people salivating at what could be coming.

  50. markfromireland

    @ Lisa – As a PS – Not that it wasn’t already very clear but the release from embargo of documents from both the Cabinet Office and General Staff make it very clear that the driving force behind it was Kitchener not Churchill. That’s not to downplay Churchill’s role and culpability but he was largely the “fall guy” to use an Americanism. Kitchener and Carden have escaped the excoriation they deserve for a remarkably badly planned and executed series of operations first against the Dardanelles and then against Gallipoli itself. Even Rogan – no friend to Churchill, acknowledges as much in his book on the fall of the Ottomans published last year:

    SUCCESSIVE FAILURES IN GALLIPOLI PROVOKED A POLITICAL CRISIS IN Britain. In May 1915, Liberal prime minister H. H. Asquith was forced into a wartime coalition with the Conservative Party. The new cabinet reflected changes in political fortunes. Arthur James Balfour, a member of the Conservative Party, took Winston Churchill’s place as first lord of the Admiralty. Churchill, condemned for his role in the unsuccessful naval campaign in the Dardanelles, was demoted to chancellor of the Duchy of Lancaster, becoming essentially a minister without portfolio. A new body, the Dardanelles Committee, was created to oversee the Gallipoli campaign, taking the place of the old War Council. The Dardanelles Committee held its first meeting on 7 June 1915 to decide the future of the campaign.

    Lord Kitchener was still secretary of state for war and still the most influential voice in the meeting. (It is ironic that, to this day, Churchill takes the blame for Gallipoli when Kitchener was so clearly the campaign’s most influential decision maker.) He presented the Dardanelles Committee with three options. Britain and its allies could abandon the Gallipoli campaign altogether. They could dispatch a major army to conquer the peninsula. Or they could continue to reinforce the small expeditionary force under Sir Ian Hamilton in the hope of making slow but steady progress towards the eventual conquest of Gallipoli.

    With apologies to all for wandering so far off-topic.

  51. Spinoza

    Guess what Blizzard of Oz? More and more white people are marrying non whites and making beautiful mixed babies. Purty soon, we will ALL be mestizo. Poor Blizzard, born only to see his dreams of an all white western world destroyed. Boooohooooo. It is inevitable. And yes, we socialists are all paid by George Soros. Yes, we are aiming to eradicate your culture, such as it is. Yes, we are gonna mandate abortions, interacial sex orgies, and pot smoking. Yes, we intend to take all the wealth of the rich and force everyone to perform Maoist exercise routines while someone takes a shit on the American flag. Muahahahaha

  52. Ché Pasa

    Since this election will apparently be all about personality and nothing more (again), it’s a curiosity that Trump isn’t being held up as an example of his class. He’s not a rogue, he’s an exemplar. People at “his level” are like that. Nasty, brutal, and with every intention of screwing any and everyone to get what they want. Period. Getting what they want is the only thing that matters to them…

    Those who toady up to people like that are like Hillary and Bill, if we want to play that way. They gain certain advantages for themselves to be sure, but at the cost of their souls, etc. And of course at the expense of everyone else, to whom they might throw a bone now and then, but otherwise they ignore.

    But the question of what either of these two would do in office is not simply a matter of their desires or personalities. The Presidency is a governmental institution interlinked with the other governmental institutions, and the institutional interest is paramount, not the individual interest of the office-holder (something Obama found out right quick, and the Bush-Cheney regime had to get used to and feel their way forward with until they could start torturing and killing brown people with impunity.) If the president and the institution of the Presidency are at odds, guess which is likely to win? (As they say, “Presidents come and go…”)

    Hillary has an advantage in the institutional framework because she knows how it works, where the levers are, who can get things done and who can thwart them, yadda yadda, and she’s socialized to the institutional interests and desires. Perfect fit, right? That also makes her potentially highly dangerous if the institution itself is intent on greater disruption and destruction around the world (particularly wrt Russia and China) in the (supposed) interests of the American Empire.

    Much the same would happen with Trump in office, though, regardless of what he says on the campaign trail. He would just make more of a spectacle of it.

    The idea that either of these two is the Devil or a Saviour is absurd. Neither will act in the People’s interest (any more than the last several presidents have) because they can’t. If it’s not the institutional desire, then it doesn’t happen.

    But it is a perfect opportunity to hammer away at the idea that the interests and actions of the Overclass and its toadies are disastrous to the well-being of the People and the planet, and it’s well past time to make it impossible for them to continue…

  53. BlizzardOfOz

    Spinoza, good one — you’re a white guy yourself, right? Or are you a Conquistador rape baby? Seriously though what do you see in the United States’ future? Lots of people are saying Brazil, since that’s where our demographics are going: high crime and social dysfunction with a soft racial caste system and corrupt Jew/WASP elite. But PC culture so inflames racial tension that it’s hard to see the country holding together. Maybe the Mexican revanchists will get their wish by default, when Southern/North-eastern/North-western whites decide on autonomy and vote to secede. Meanwhile, the American hegemony can’t last another generation, can it? DC/Mordor has completely lost its moral authority. Interesting times ahead.

  54. Ivory Bill Woodpecker

    “high crime and social dysfunction…”

    Actually, the crime rate ( the rate of “street crime”, at least) has dropped quite a bit since the 1970s, due largely to the banning of leaded gasoline. Chronic low-level lead poisoning is especially destructive of the center of the human brain which controls impulses–and very often, the only difference between the criminal and the lawful citizen is that the criminal, for whatever reasons, has weaker control of his (or, more rarely, her) impulses.

    But thanks for playing, Ratzi, and please accept these lovely parting gifts. 😛

  55. Robert Dudek

    The Nazi plan for the Poles (and all Slavs) was to kill a large number of them, but keep the strong peasant types as ideal manual labour. Basically similar to the treatment of black slaves in North America. Famously, a Nazi report said that Slavs should be educated only to the point of being able to read simple road signs.

  56. XFR

    The actual campus “PC culture” (always wildly overblown) of the 1990s petered out when everyone involved caught on that Sapir-Worf really wasn’t all it was cracked up to be.

    The “PC culture” of today is a right-wing fraud, a bastard child of security-state dissent-management and covert white “liberal” paranoia at the increasing weakness of the “soft racial caste system”. It’s essentially a rearguard action to preserve white hegemony at the upper echelons of power, pushing back against the merit principle by instituting a sort of tokenism-on-steroids as a sop to discriminated groups while advocating for a bizarre sort of racial “chivalry” to paper over the reality of discrimination. (“Hey, I believe in feminism…I always open a door for a lady.”)

  57. LaughingAtFools

    Only fools make predictions, and you, Ian, are a first class fool. You have a gigantic ego and no humility.

  58. different clue

    @Robert Dudek,

    The reason I believe that the GermaNazi Hitlerians had a total-extermination goal in mind for Poland in particular is that I read somewhere ( can’t remember where) that when the Soviet Red Army liberated Poland and had the time to poke around here and there and find interesting stuff, one bunch of interesting stuff they found was stockpiles of Zyklon B. The amount of Zyklon B they found stockpiled would have been enough to kill roughly 26 million people. The Jews were mostly all dead and the Gypsies partly all dead by then, so who would that Zyklon B have been meant for?

    At another time and somewhere else, I read that the Polish population of Poland ( meaning Polish Poles) was about 26 million at the time of Red Army Liberation. o HO! . . . I thought to myself. So THAT’S who all that Zyklon B was stockpiled for. I have no proof. That is just the automatic connection my mind made. In any event, the Poles seem insufficiently grateful even unto this very day that the Soviet Red Army spared them the future of planned comprehensive extermination in detail which I believe the GermanyGov had planned for them.

  59. Hugh

    We have been inculcated by elites and the powers that be with the notion that populism is dangerous. But populism is a manifestation of the popular will and the popular will is the essence of democracy, the kind of society we want, and isn’t that what it all should be about?

    Elites hate populism because they don’t fully control it and fear it will turn against them. But they will exploit it. Making populism about the right or left is one way of doing this. It is classic class warfare: turn one half of the population against the other half and by this conflict distract attention away from the elites pulling the strings. Populisms of both the right and left devolve into authoritarian police states because this is how the elites reassert their control. This process is not inevitable, but it is common.

  60. Lisa

    BlizzardOfOz

    Britain couldn’t stay out of the war after France fell, for no other reason that Mussolini attacked them in North Africa, got thumped and had to be bailed out by the Germans.

    Even if Hitler has reined in Mussolini and stopped that happening, then Japan’s attacks on the British Empire would have led to a declaration of war by Germany a bit later.

    So it was only a matter of time, which Churchill (for all his faults) understood far better than many of his colleagues did in 1940.

    The problem was that Britain made a series of disasterous strategic and tactical decisions from 1939 through to 1942 until it finally got its act together, which damaged its war effort badly … and led to its impoverishment post war.

    So did the Soviets and Americans at first, but they could afford it, Britain couldn’t. Fortunately for all, no one screwed up strategically more than the Germans did for all their tactical brilliance (thankfully no one listened to Kesselring, Rommel and the German navy).

    different clue : As horrible as the holocaust was the Germans were just warming up, their plans were to exterminate another 100 million or so Slavs, the remaining few left alive were to be slaves.

    Remember how they started, they exterminated ALL the mentally ill, people with genetic and birth defects, cripples, LGBTI as well as political opponents before they got started on the others.
    50% of all those in Soviet territory captured by the Germans …died.
    In terms of total population the Gypsies suffered the greatest loss in percentage terms (and no one remembers that little fact).

    Most people these days underestimate how bad it really was, heck of lot more than 6 million. And as I said, they were just starting.

  61. different clue

    @Lisa,

    I wish I could remember WHERE I read that the Soviet Red Army found roughly 26 million doses worth of Zyklon B stored up in Poland . . . just enough for the coincidentally 26 million Polish Poles living in Poland at that time. Hitler had BIG! PLANS! That is for sure.

    The question of “percentages successfully killed” is interesting. I think the intention was to have Zero Survivors of each targeted group. I know that the Nazi System Operators were able to kill the Polish Jewish population in particular down from a 3 million pre-war total to a one hundred thousand post war remainder. Did they achieve the same near-total burdown for the Jews in other conquered countries? I don’t know. I know the EuroNazi Area of Operations was left basically Jew-Rid after the war, as Hitler desired.

    What was the Gypsy population just before the war as against just after? I don’t know. But it appears the Hitler plan for the Gypsies basically failed, in that there are now several million Gypsies in Eastern Europe today. It may be they were able to rebuild their population from a small remnant in a way the Jews never were. ( By the way, I wonder if the FASTEST killoff per unit time was achieved in our own day by the Hutu Militias in their Interahamwe Holocaust of the Tutsis . . . . done by hand with axes, hatchets and machetes no less).

  62. BlizzardOfOz

    Lisa,

    But by the time France fell in 1940 the die was already cast. France and Britain had already declared war the previous year because of Chamberlain’s guarantee to Poland. I don’t think it’s at all clear that Hitler would have declared war on Britain on Japan’s account, if there was a chance of an alliance otherwise.

    Honestly, I’m just surprised to find mfi a Churchill apologist. I’m definitely going to bring that up next time he goes LARPing as an anti-imperialist.

  63. Lisa

    BlizzardOfOz : After France fell there was a very strong movement to have a settlement with Germany. Churchill narrowly carried the Cabinet to continue the war. See Five Days in London: May 1940 by John Lukacs.

    A shorter summary is in Most Dangerous Enemy, arguably the best book on the Battle Britain and I recommend as a must read for anyone interested in it, or even airpower overall.

    different clue: No they didn’t about (from memory) 50% of German Jews managed to get out beforehand. Some countries (like Denmark) were not touched. Italian Jews were not affected until Mussolini fell. Many left Europe after the war so their population never recovered. What probably saved the Gypsies from total annihilation was being so scattered.
    The worst countries for the Jews were those that were already very anti-Semitic, such as Poland and Austria (which still are). France was pretty horrible too.
    Overall there was (and is even today) a correlation between how Catholic they were and how anti-Semitic, the biggest exception being Italy.

    Gypsies were the worst ethnic group affected but the worst group of all were the mentally ill, 100% killed. Every single person in the asylums died, it is also where they first started using gas in mobile units.

    LGBTI people mostly, but not by any means all, gay men lost over a couple of a hundred thousand and in an act of sheer bastardry the survivors were left in the camps after everyone else were liberated, some for several years and West and East Germany didn’t drop the Nazi laws against gays until many years later.

    It is hard to conceive of it all but some people carry so much hate.

    As a member of a small minority group (transgender) and arguably one of the most discriminated against, I am all too aware of those that would exterminate us in a minute if they could, their hatred of us is just so intense. You ought to see some of the comments we get on social media, even on mainstream media (such as from Germaine Greer), the incredible outpourings of completely irrational hatred.

    That was one thing I was not prepared for when I transitioned, though the vast majority of people have been absolutely great and I personally in day to day life have had no problems, there is a small minority (conservatives. religious, the Catholic Church and so on) that would eliminate us all tomorrow (the Pope who compared us to nuclear weapons as a danger to society just had another go at us again a couple of days ago). Some parents are amongst the worst and throw out (or even kill) their children if they are LGBT, often by those who proudly shout their ‘family values’ so loudly. LGB acceptance has increased greatly in recent years, but transgender people are about where they were 20 years ago so we get attacked proportionally far more these days (though intersex people actually suffer the worst of all).

    So I can sort of emotionally (as well as intellectually) comprehend the mentality of those who would want to carry out such things against other groups as well.

    Sadly genocide is all too common in human history and the reasons are not always the usual land and money or even political cynicism, for many it is emotional and ideological, it is about getting rid of those who disturb a certain worldview.

    Hitler was a good example, his campaign to eliminate all Slavs was about land no different to (say) American and Australian settlers, but his against Jews and others was irrational hatred of them, but given his Austrian and Catholic background comprehendible.

  64. markfromireland

    Some countries (like Denmark) were not touched.

    Not true. The Danes managed to get most of the Danish jews to safety in Sweden. The few that remained were rounded up by the Gestapo and sent to concentrations camps where they were murdered.

  65. Ivory Bill Woodpecker

    The Danes managed to get most of the Danish jews to safety in Sweden.

    Aw, Mark, you just broke Blizzy’s heart. He thought his hero, the nasty Charlie Chaplin lookalike, had gotten them all.

  66. BlizzardOfOz

    Lisa,

    You call hatred irrational, but what you mean is that you’re unable or unwilling to enter into a worldview (let’s say “empathize”) wherein such hatred is entirely rational.

    Churchill hated Germans, whom he derided as “Huns”. Was that irrational? Or was bound up with his love for his own people, whom he saw threatened by the Germans? I’m sure you yourself hate certain kinds of Catholics and other groups, even though you might deny it. It’s natural to hate whom you see as your enemies. Hitler in Mein Kampf describes the process by which he came to hate Jews, having originally recoiled from anti-Semitism like any good aspiring urban sophisticate.

    Your idea that Catholics would eliminate transgender people seems delusional. Things would have to turn 180 degrees for the social climate to get there, and it certainly wouldn’t happen in your lifetime. But that’s the West in the current year: an incoherent mish-mash of conflicting and incompatible identities and ideologies, with each man in fear that if things turn the wrong way he might quickly become in danger of persecution.

  67. Ivory Bill Woodpecker

    But that’s the West in the current year: an incoherent mish-mash of conflicting and incompatible identities and ideologies, with each man in fear that if things turn the wrong way he might quickly become in danger of persecution.

    Oh dear, why ever would anyone fear persecution?

    Oh wait, I know–because sophists like Blizz have been constructing “ethical” justifications for acting out their primitive tribal drives since prehistoric times?

    Yeah, hate is natural. Theft and murder are natural, too. Shall we allow those?

    Save your sophistry for the flowers, Blizz. They probably could use the fertilizer.

  68. Lisa

    MFI: Shorthand. What I meant was that a large proportion of their Jewish population survived, due to efforts by the locals and by ones means or another.

    BlizzardOfOz: The official position of the Catholic Church is that no social, legal acceptance and recognition of trans people happen and that no medical support (hormones, surgery) be allowed. Trans people are to stay in their birth assigned gender.

    That is elimination. Same with gays and lesbians too. They are to become straight or celibate and also no longer exist. It is a clear patriarchal gender binary where sex is for procreation only and non procreative sex (eg masturbation) is a sin. Men’s and women’s roles are clearly stated where men are the leaders and women the mothers. No contraception or abortion is allowed.

    At every point and in every country the Church opposes any anti-discrimination efforts or laws and pushes for laws banning LGBT people. Their position on intersex is just as bad, in that they support compulsory surgery (etc) on intersex babies and kids to assign them to one gender ..and that they cannot ever change, even if the doctors get it wrong (which they do quite often).

    Here in Australia we have a initiative called Safe Schools designed to reduce bullying of LGBTI kids at schools, the Catholic Church (and others on the right) totally opposes it. This is despite conclusive evidence that it is non acceptance, bullying, etc that cause large amount of harm and psychological damage to LGBTI kids, contributing greatly to their elevated suicide rate.

    They hate us and want us all gone. Obviously not the only one, most right wing social/religious organisations are the same. Some like the FRC spend huge amount of money lobbying Govts to attack us. The North Carolina bathroom law was developed and pushed for by the FRC as part of their 5 point plan to eliminate trans people totally.
    The NC law also targets (and they have been the biggest victims so far) women who are not stereotypically gender conforming, with many women being pulled up and even assaulted by men because they do not look ‘female enough’. This is also in line with the Church’s teaching, where clear gender roles are stated, women who cross that (even just in presentation) are ‘rejecting god’s gift of femininity’.

    It would be nice if they spent as much time on stopping child sex abuse by priests and other church officials and supporting victims, instead of trying to fight compensation claims and cover it up, intimidate victims, etc. But nope….not a big priority.

    When (as I was for some of my life) in the male, white, middle class you are not touched by any of this, so it is natural if you are low on empathy and have poor ethics to discount it as meaningless. When it is your life on the line…things are different.

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