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Manufacturing Violent People

2018 January 11
by Ian Welsh

One of the largely unacknowledged problems of prison is that it manufactures bad people.

When someone is arrested, it is often a traumatic event. It’s backed up by the promise of violence, and even death if someone resists.

Police are often brutal, and, once in prison, one is surrounded by dangerous people. The least sign of weakness will make one into a victim, so one must pretend to be tough, no matter what. Months to years of living like that, plus the real possibility of new trauma from rape, assault, or battery, along with the certainty of living in near constant fear will likely give the person trauma and rage issues, and teach them that the best way not to be a victim is to be a victimizer.

When they get out…

This is made worse by the fact that once you’ve got a record, good jobs are largely closed off from you. Even a lot of bad jobs are, as so many employers do criminal records checks now that it is easy.

Poor, traumatized, and used to violence as a solution to problems; having been taught that admitting any weakness will just get you victimized, you’re very likely to turn to crime and even violent crime.

Prison in all Anglo countries created worse, harder criminals. By making a lot of poverty illegal, by locking up junkies (who should be in for treatment), and by disproportionately locking up minorities for crimes for which whites tend to skate (most drug use crimes), we tend to create the very monsters we think we are protecting ourselves from. And when we don’t create them, we make them worse.

There is another possibility: Norway has half the recidivism rate of the US because they treat their prisoners well. They don’t throw them into a situation with a great threat of violence, including rape, instead they genuinely try for rehabilitation.

Hurting people who have already been hurt makes them worse, not better, in most cases. It teaches them that violence is the way of the world, and that the strong do what they will to the weak. Victims become victimizers.

This is a choice. A lot of the people we lock up don’t need to be locked up: They have committed no crime of violence. There are other ways to deal with them, from medical help to removing their ability to do harm (like forbidding bankers to ever be involved with the financial industry ever again, seizing their ill-gotten wealth, and garnishing their income until they have paid back the billions they destroyed through their fraudulent actions. No money, no position = no power. But they can have good jobs which don’t pay more than median wages.)

And once they are in the system, we could choose not to treat them horribly, and not put them in a position where the other inmates will brutalize them further. This can be done, because other societies do it.

If we choose to perpetuate the violence, it is because, like Justice Clarence Thomas of the US Supreme Court, we think rape is part of the punishment.

Which, to be clear, makes us rapists. If you support criminals being raped, you’re little different from some asshole cheering a rapist on, screaming, “He has it coming!”

Perhaps, having tried cruelty for most of our history, we might consider trying a bit of kindness and a lot of “no harm”?

At the least, even if it doesn’t work (and the evidence is that it does), we wouldn’t be complicit in generating more violence.

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131 Responses leave one →
  1. Will permalink
    January 14, 2018

    Scruff: I appreciate your comment and appreciate your civility. It is heated subject and often can’t be discussed at all.

    I have to say that although you have made a couple points that I can appreciate you are arguing from an invalid position without even realizing it.

    You say that my way of doing things would result in (eventually I assume) someone innocent being put to death. Therefore everything I say about justice is a lie.

    You are correct that eventually that will happen. Our world is flawed and anything we can construct is going to be flawed as well. I believe the threshold can be set to where it is a one in a billion shot and still exterminate these animals quickly and dispassionately. But, yes, once in a billion you could theoretically put an innocent to death. And yes, people like myself who support the death penalty are responsible for the death of that innocent. But any system results in innocent deaths.

    As things stand right now you, and those like you, advocate from a position that results in many, many deaths each and every year. And you wrap yourselves in a cloak of righteousness and pretend this isn’t so. Keep spreading the gospel of rehabilitation and common humanity. Just wipe the blood of your hands first.

    Every killer that has been turned loose only to repeat the crime is your responsibility. Every rapist that has been unleashed on society to repeat his crimes is on you. Every child molester who preys on child after child throughout his life while the justice system makes gestures of impotence? They too can look to you and those like you for the cause.

    And all of those hymn singing, candle burning degenerates chanting and pointing fingers outside the prisons where a death penalty is scheduled to occur? Hypocrites who should be treated like the mayhem supporting maggots they are.


  2. The Stephen Miller Band permalink
    January 14, 2018

    I do not support the death penalty for many reasons but the most prominent reason is because I do not want to confer this power to The State. I believe in limiting the power of The State and conferring the power to murder to The State, and the death penalty is murder, is anathema to that. If we create a society based on certain principles, we can achieve Egalitarianism which over multiple generations becomes rather organic and self-perpetuating. In such a Society, the power of The State will be limited in scope & breath. Conferring to The State the power to murder is completely contrary to my notion of an Egalitarian society.

    I think those who are OBVIOUSLY guilty of heinous crimes against humanity, and rape is such a crime, should be given a choice. Solitary Confinement for Life or they can choose suicide. They should have the right to take their own life and The State will enable that process. Of course, this would require a completely new Justice System than the one America currently has. One where prosecutors, or what are akin to prosecutors in the new System, are not incentivized to pin a crime on an innocent person who can’t defend themselves because they need another feather in their cap on their way to District Attorney and Mayor.

    Some criminal freaks cannot be rehabilitated. Sex offenders are one such group. What they do is really not sex. It’s much more than a sexual impulse. Their brains are fucked up and we do not yet possess the scientific knowledge on how to unfuck their brains, therefore, they cannot live amongst people who’s brains are not fucked up, or at least not fucked up in that way. They are predators and can’t help themselves. They fully admit this. Do the research.

  3. The Stephen Miller Band permalink
    January 14, 2018

    Dems have ridden on the backs of blacks as long as that worked for them, but now they are willing to throw blacks under the bus for the (perceived) better demographic bet with the Latinos and other Third World immigrants.

    True, but Donald Shithole Trump is not the answer to that and neither is the GOP and neither is anything Rush Limpdick and Fox News are selling.

  4. nihil obstet permalink
    January 14, 2018

    This has become somewhat about how people get to prison rather than what happens to them once there.

    So, first, on trials: this is how we determine who is guilty. The standard in a criminal trial is reasonable doubt, and that’s left to the jury because theoretically it’s up to members of the society what risk they want to run. Make “beyond reasonable doubt” harder to get to, and more guilty people will be declared not guilty. Make it easier to get to, and more innocent people will be punished. So do we want to run a higher risk of freeing the guilty or imprisoning the innocent? An obvious, troubling aspect of the system is that juries judge the risk of having different kinds and classes of defendants running around free differently.

    Even more troubling is that over 90% of prisoners in federal prisons haven’t been convicted of the crime for which they are imprisoned. A plea bargain put them there.

    Since it is inevitable that a system depending so heavily on incarceration will imprison a significant number of people inequitably and unjustly, justice, if not morality, demands that we treat prisoners humanely.

  5. barryobamacokehead permalink
    January 14, 2018

    Your blog is pointless. Americans are perpetual greedheads, as are Canadians, and nothing will ever change that.

  6. Peter permalink
    January 14, 2018

    I wonder how these postmodern ideas about the treatment of convicted criminals will make society safer. Trying to turn the criminals into some kind of victim and blaming their crimes on the prison system is a strange bit of warped logic.

    Most inmates don’t seem to be violent and the violent criminals are segregated from the general population in maximum security units. Most convicts return to prison because they are criminals not because prison bullies make them violent.

    Junkies go to prison because of crimes they commit besides being a junkie and most will never want to be cured. Restitution just as rehabilitation are wishful thinking for most of these people. Most return to crime and those who might work make little money to live on and none for restitution.

    Throwing the banker in with the junkie was too clever by half and ignores the fact that the banks have paid hundreds of billions of dollars in restitution for their crimes and a lot for things that weren’t crimes.

  7. Willy permalink
    January 14, 2018


    Norway’s incarceration rate is a tenth that of the USA. Its recidivism rate one quarter. American wardens visiting there are amazed/appalled at how liberal the system is.

    (Please note that I believe in three strikes and harsh punishment for incorrigibles. I find mass murderer Anders Behring Breivik, only being sentenced to their maximum of 21 years, appalling. I would probably shoot a junkie caught raiding my garage.)

    Yet somehow, the land once known for ruthless pirates has become the land of “restorative justice” and a very low crime rate. That or my sources are completely wrong.

  8. realitychecker permalink
    January 14, 2018

    @ Tom W. Harris

    Tom, please accept my most sincere and abject apology for misreading you. I really mean that.

    I sometimes feel like a bear being beset by a dozen fact-and-logic-challenged chihuahuas here. I mistook you, in my haste and the heated and frustrating nature of the conversation, for another chihuahua. I admit I am beside myself seeing the incredibly idiotic things these people are saying and thinking. I always thought we on the left were supposed to be the clear thinkers lol. Doing a reality check on that belief now, in real time. (sigh)

    I’ll be more careful about you from now on. 🙂

  9. realitychecker permalink
    January 14, 2018

    @ Willy

    You say:

    “I would probably shoot a junkie caught raiding my garage.”

    You are really brain-damaged to have such murderous intentions toward a simple petty thief.

    Don’t EVER try to sustain any moral arguments here again. Cuz I will respond with that quote. Even worse than your “gay porn sites” quote. You are a totally repugnant human being.You need to be prevented from having children.

    You are exactly like the psychopaths that you constantly claim have populated your entire life.

  10. realitychecker permalink
    January 14, 2018

    @ Chge Pasa

    Hey Che, where is that fucking lying quote you tried to attribute to me?

    Suck down some more tequila, maybe you’ll be able to find it then.

  11. realitychecker permalink
    January 14, 2018

    @ nihil obstet

    You are the one digging yourself into a hole.

    You are urging that our immigration policy should reflect the views of a Zionist and Native American genocide enabler.

    We can all see it. Wait for your ‘friends’ to throw you under the bus for it, because I’ll keep pointing it out.

  12. Willy permalink
    January 14, 2018


    If you are not clearly and cleanly explaining/dissing the “incredibly idiotic things”, then you are doing nothing more than wasting everybody’s time with the childish namecalling. It is not your job, but the childish namecalling diverts the discussion more than is already will be. And I’m trying hard to hold my snipey back of the class clown impulses in check. But everybody has their limits.

    If you are the stable genius with 16 years experience which you claim, it should be an almost effortless task. Unusually elegant smackdowns of irrationality might even win points, even if it involves my own commentary.

  13. Willy permalink
    January 14, 2018

    Don’t EVER try to sustain any moral arguments here again

    Reread my comment as many times as it takes. I am not trying to be moral in the slightest.
    Only looking for objective truth. That’s it.

    Peter says rehabilitation is likely not possible. Yet statistics from Norway suggest otherwise.

    I tend to lean towards Peter’s view, but see the contrast of the success in Norway and wonder why.

    Is this too difficult for you?

  14. realitychecker permalink
    January 14, 2018

    NOBODY here who wants to coddle criminals has stepped up to say they have any experience with violent street crime. How many times do I need to make this challenge?

    Fun to spout off about life-or-death shit you know nothing about, isn’t it, folks? Too fucking bad for all the real victims that suffer for your policy preferences, amirite?

    The modern left obviously wants to act like we are in a perfect world, confusing a wished-for ideal with the very NOT IDEAL world we currently occupy.

    Stop posing as smart people, it’s ridiculous.

    If we had any honest people here, we could have a very deep and important conversation about the multitudinously varying ways we value human life.

    Not with this addled crowd, though. They prefer a steady diet of contradictions and erroneous ‘logic.’

  15. realitychecker permalink
    January 14, 2018

    Willy, you are like a fart in a blizzard. I don’t have to deal with your twisted, febrile mentality.

    Those who read these threads shouldn’t need any guidance from me to see what you are.

  16. Willy permalink
    January 14, 2018

    I know that if I am again put in a situation where a savage threatens my life, I will kill him or them. Because I know what savages are like. And their deaths will be their fault, NOT my fault. And society will not feel the loss of them, because, frankly, their lives are NOT precious, due to their deliberate behavioral choices.

    Please revise I would probably shoot a junkie caught raiding my garage

    To I would probably shoot a life threatening junkie caught raiding my garage

  17. realitychecker permalink
    January 14, 2018

    OK, that’s better. Your original formulation was a MURDER. (I’m trying to be fair to you, even though you don’t really deserve any fairness from me, given your many declarations that you have a mission to stalk me and you do a great job of derailing every serious conversation.

    Let me also point out, when you previously spoke about winning all your fights because you “pick your fights,” that is a far, far cry from having violence suddenly imposed on you with no opportunity to avoid it. That is what violent street crime does to you. That is what I know about. Nobody here seems to have a clue about it.

  18. Willy permalink
    January 14, 2018

    IMVHO, I think the discussion about crime and incarceration, Norway vs. USA, should continue. My apologies for all the distractions. I couldn’t care less if the discussion happens without me, as long as we get some insights here.

    Are there any state prison systems within the USA where restorative justice has even in part, seen some of the success in the direction of Norway? I know there are many variables, some of which may be different from that country. What are they? Do they even matter?

  19. nihil obstet permalink
    January 14, 2018

    I admit to having gotten a little curious. What argument did I made? I don’t remember it. I’ve looked through and through the thread, and can’t find anything prior to today’s comment about how people get to prison. And yet I read pages here about the argument I’m making and what I believe and all sorts of other stuff hidden from myself. Oh, well, I must be a moron who makes invisible arguments.

  20. realitychecker permalink
    January 14, 2018

    @ nihil

    Yeah, your argument was that modern immigration policy must conform to the words from a Zionist’s and American Western Expansionist’s poem on a plaque on the Statue of Liberty that was written in the 1800’s..

    What a waste of time it is to try and reason with you.

  21. DMC permalink
    January 14, 2018

    And once again the original discussion gets sidetracked through reality challenged’s never ending supply of straw men. IT DOESN’T MATTER AT ALL IF YOU’VE BEEN THE VICTIM OF VIOLENT CRIME OR NOT!!! It doesn’t confer some moral superiority on you. It just makes you a victim. And your solution is MORE VIOLENCE! That’s some brilliant ass reasoning there. An old colleauge of mine once said “The problem with Americans is they just want to find the Devil and beat him up”. That’s a fair summnation of everything RC cola has said around here for the last 10 years but with more name calling.

  22. realitychecker permalink
    January 14, 2018

    @ nihil

    Here you go. I guess your stupid and continuing attempts at lame sarcasm occluded your thought process and memory. You said:

    “nihil obstet permalink
    January 13, 2018

    Fun fact question of the day: who is Emma Lazarus?”

    Hint: Not some French guy of 200 years ago.”


    ” nihil obstet permalink
    January 13, 2018

    Fun logical precept of the day: when considering American ideology, it’s more convincing to cite American authors rather than assigning their writings to foreigners.”

    I said:

    realitychecker permalink
    January 13, 2018

    @ nihil obstet

    You attempt an irrelevant gotcha, given that in the mid-1800’s we were desperate for immigrants to fill an empty continent. Not at all like today, which was my very point. But you and your flying monkeys love it when you say this:

    ” nihil obstet permalink
    January 13, 2018

    Fun fact question of the day: who is Emma Lazarus?

    Hint: Not some French guy of 200 years ago”

    So, let me invite you stupid losers to chew on this, from Wikipedia, till you (hopefully) choke yourselves into a blue state:

    “An important forerunner of the Zionist movement, Lazarus argued for the creation of a Jewish homeland thirteen years before Theodor Herzl began to use the term “Zionism”.[29]”

    Do you morons STILL want to promote the blind acceptance of whatever old Emma had to say?

    God help us survive you morons. :-0″

    And then, to make it even clearer when you failed to understand that you lost the argument:

    “realitychecker permalink
    January 13, 2018

    @ nihil obstet, and others

    You know, trying to make sweeping real-time arguments based on one’s own twisted beliefs about history is a dangerous thing. As is trying to rely on ‘symbolism’ to explain real time events.

    You inspired me to read Wikipedia’s entry on the Statue of Liberty. I advise everyone to do so.

    They would see that the fucking statue itself was NEVER INTENDED TO BE ABOUT ANYTHING BUT LIBERTY!!!!!!!

    Never intended to have anything to do with immigration AT ALL.

    Anybody feeling stupid yet?

    (As an aside, how about this, from the time when they were trying to raise money for the pedestal?:

    “The New York Times stated that “no true patriot can countenance any such expenditures for bronze females in the present state of our finances.”[70] Faced with these criticisms, the American committees took little action for several years.[70]”)

    Lazarus was an early Zionist who also believed in displacing the Native Americans. Her poem was part of the fund-raising effort, meant to be auctioned off. If you are depending on her, you are a supporter of Israel and of Native American genocide. Good job, idiots.

    Oh, and no women were allowed at the dedication ceremony, save two related to the creators. Suffragettes protested from boats.

    So, how badly defective a brain must one have to use the “huddled masses” phrase as the determining argument in deciding whether we should stuff our country full of people fleeing Third World shitholes, or hellholes, choose your own preferred term for the places nobody wants to be.

    All this, whilst the Dems and their supporters argue you can’t send temporary visa holders back to their countries after 15 years because they are such terrible places. Gimme a fucking break already!

    Now let me make a larger point, one that really matters RIGHT NOW. The Dems are trying to pretend to be the friends to both the blacks and the Latinos. Those groups have real life interests that are DIRECTLY OPPOSED to each other. As many black pundits are happy to tell you right now.

    You can’t be friends to both, without being a total hypocrite. But every single idiot who attacks me here is buying into that bullshit line.

    How do you live with yourselves?”

    NOW can you see what a waste of time and effort it is to interact with you? It really is.

  23. realitychecker permalink
    January 14, 2018

    @ DMC

    Right fool, having experience about something important and complex does not mean anything when talking to you. Not even to have some empathy for the victims.

    Got it.

    Ever been a victim of street crime? How did you deal with it if not with violence? Was your Mommy available to save you?

    Gaping assholes never get tired of gaping.

  24. nihil obstet permalink
    January 14, 2018

    Fun time-saving tip of the day: When it’s a waste of time and effort to interact with someone, don’t do it.

  25. realitychecker permalink
    January 14, 2018

    @ nihil

    Maybe instead of giving me advice on how to deal with you when you are being a stupid asshole and making comments directed at me and my arguments, YOU should work on being a stupid asshole less frequently?


  26. realitychecker permalink
    January 14, 2018

    @ Willy

    Apology accepted. Can we please stay on a better basis going forward? I would appreciate it, and I know Ian would as well.

    I’ve been working these issues since I was a young man, have read, studied, argued them so many, many times over the years, both inside and outside the criminal justice system, with all kinds of people, and it’s amazing how little the conversation has changed.

    I can’t share everything I know with you, but this is really the crux of the matter:

    It’s legal to use deadly force when you have a reasonable perception that you or others are being threatened with serious injury or death. That has always been, and always will be the law in this country, and, I think it is also a moral position to live by. It accords with the basic natural law of self-preservation, which is why it is so widely applied.

    Interestingly, for all the experiences I’ve had around these issues, I have never had to actually put my hands on or otherwise hurt ANYBODY. I’ve bluffed through or avoided a lot of things, for which I am thankful, because if I was to actually use my right to self-defense, the system in most places would still ruin my life and finances. It’s not a thing to be wished for, and folks like V. Arnold who want to paint me as WANTING to use force against somebody are simply insane.

    Re ‘restorative justice,’ classically there were 4 justifications for imposing prison on someone.
    1. Removing them from where they can commit more crime;
    2. Deterring others from committing crime;
    3; Retribution (pure punishment);
    4. Rehabilitation

    In the last century, we moved away from retribution, deeming it an unworthy motivation (I disagree vehemently, bad consequences shape behavior very well, as you can judge from your own personal life, I would think.)

    It was said we would thenceforth rely on rehabilitation to shape future behavior of convicts.

    But nobody has had much success in rehabilitating large numbers of people, and it’s very expensive, so now there is a bare pretense of still being able to accomplish much through rehabilitation.

    Norway is so different from the U.S. that it makes no sense to blindly accept its policies here.

    That’s the nutshell version. 🙂

    I hope we can all use MLK Day to remind ourselves that Martin said our personal character as revealed by our behavior was all that should matter.

  27. Willy permalink
    January 15, 2018

    Apology accepted. Can we please stay on a better basis going forward? I would appreciate it, and I know Ian would as well.

    To be honest, it doesn’t bother me if anybody hurls insults at me. But I do have a bad habit of wanting to have fun with it, which is hard to control, and I think the off-topic back and forth that results can annoy others who just want to read things that are of more interest to them personally.

    In the last century, we moved away from retribution, deeming it an unworthy motivation

    IMO, imprtant things shouldn’t be based on “unworthy motivation” but more based on proven outcomes. Robert Hare spent years in the Canadian prison system studying incorrigibles. May not be your cup of tea, but he believes that while many criminals can be rehabilitated, some never can be rehabilitated with any method or technology that is currently available.

    I tend to believe what he says. Most people can be reasoned with (or in his world, rehabilitated), but others will only ever use your own willingness to be reasonable against you. If a criminal is of that latter type, then rehabilitation is a complete waste of time and taxpayer money. Of course it’s not an either/or situation but a spectrum of potentials which makes things that much harder to discern.

    Norway is so different from the U.S. that it makes no sense to blindly accept its policies here.

    North Dakota just did. I’ll watch that situation as it unfolds. Hopefully over time, people expert in such areas will be able to suspend any dogmas to objectively analyze the results, good and bad. And maybe they’d be smart enough to explain why it worked (if it did) in Nodak or Norway but might not in Florida. Still, I’m interested in other views on what those differences between Norway and the U.S. are.

  28. realitychecker permalink
    January 15, 2018

    @ Willy

    I was an incorrigible class clown myself early in life, always on a first name basis with the school deans thru high school, so rest assured I appreciate the joys and also the occasional great comedic value of having such voices around. Even yours on occasion lol.

    But when it diverts a serious conversation in a significant way, it takes away from the opportunity to have a serious conversation. Typing a long, thoughtful comment on a Dell laptop, where the cursor relocates itself seemingly every time I touch the comma key, is impediment enough, IMHO.

    But unfair attacks that go unrebutted serve to diminish the credibility of the one attacked unless they are immediately responded to, and I know you have seen that. Our credibility is all we are online, if you think about it, so attacking someone’s cred in an unfair way is like murdering their online persona. Which is why I always respond. (And I have shared this view privately with Ian.)

    Much better to never have the original unfair attack, even those that imply via sarcasm or outrageous mis-paraphrasing, which are both rampant online. (Maybe especially those, since their lack of specificity opens the door to limitless negative suppositions, while presenting no specific thing to rebut against.)

    I get that a ‘tribal’ website of any sort will be hostile to any departure from the local dogma, and I don’t mind responding to civil and articulate objections to any of the thoughts I share here in good faith. But please believe me when I say that my heart has always been and always will be mostly with the progressive side of the political spectrum (only cast one vote for a Republican in my whole life!!!!), and I only raise the criticisms I raise because I don ‘t want my side to be in error, as they clearly are on some points at some times, and on other points almost all the time. When a big contradiction can be articulated, clearly someone has something wrong, n’est-ce pas? That is all I try to point out most of the time.

    Anyway, to your substance, the “unworthy’ connotation came mostly from the religious, in my understanding, who want to believe that the Lord takes vengeance, so society is wrong to do so.
    But any behavioral psychologist will tell you that negative reinforcement is by far the most effective way to permanently extinguish undesirable behaviors. BUT, and here is the rub, the negative reinforcement is more effective as it is closer in time to the bad behavior, instantaneous being the best time frame. Of course, we don’t get that in the system as presently constituted. It’s not the psychology’s fault lol. And, as noted, some behaviors, like rape and pedophilia, nobody seems to know how to extinguish.

    Re Norway, the high level socialist model prevailing there removes poverty as a causative factor in their crime picture, and their homogeneity avoids all the incredible difficulties that present when you try to administer justice fairly and equally among many different social ‘tribes’ who are perpetually antagonistic toward all the other tribes. It doesn’t take a lot of imagination to see why this is so.

    Death penalty was raised somewhere above, so I’ll also say that I support it for the most serious crimes, but only when the evidence is irrefutably conclusive, which is rare but does sometimes occur (e.g. DNA present with conclusive surrounding circumstances, clear video, corroborated confessions), not solely on, e.g., single eyewitness testimony which has proven to be very unreliable in history. We must never execute an innocent person.

    Have a great day, Willy.

  29. realitychecker permalink
    January 15, 2018

    @ Willy

    Just to add, re Norway, that homogeneous populations would naturally be expected to have an easier time thinking of themselves as one community, with shared common nterests and obligations that can be widely agreed upon.

    Contrast that with modern America, where so many groups think they have all the good on their side, but everybody else need to be restrained or constrained for the benefit of one’s own ‘tribe,’ and there is no discernible concern for the general community as a unified whole.

  30. Ché Pasa permalink
    January 15, 2018

    Gramps got quite a little outing yesterday. Nice to see he’s calmed down a little bit. Fox can sure wind him up, though.

  31. realitychecker permalink
    January 15, 2018

    @ Che

    Libelous false quotes from folks like you wind me up. Shouldn’t they?

    BTW, how many times do I have to challenge you to provide my ACTUAL quote before you man up and apologize?

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