Yesterday we talked about AI: how business has been adopting it wholesale even though so far most of the evidence is that it performs worse than humans on almost all tasks. They do this because bosses don’t want to deal with employees: they want drones that just do what they’re told, and hope that AI can replace humans.
Socrates famously said that people should eat to live, not live to eat.
Business provide services or goods to make money, they don’t make money to provide services or goods, and that’s the fundamental problem with our economy and capitalism.
If businesses were run for employees, by employees, they’d use automation and AI to make jobs better, not just to get rid of employees and hope to make more cash. If they were run for customers, then they’d use AI and automation to improve their services and goods. That might mean making them cheaper, in an economy with money, but there wouldn’t be a huge drive to get rid of employees. The question would be “does this make what we provide our customers better?”
This goes far beyond AI and automation, though. It’s why everything becomes crappified. Google, to give an obvious example, made Google Search crap to make more money. Facebook’s algo is hell, and makes Facebook worse, but it boosts engagement and make more money, while every study shows it makes people who use it more unhappy and depressed and spreads vast amounts of misinfo, optimizing for anger and outrage.
Pick whatever service or good you want (tractors are a good one) and the drive for profit over mission (despite all the BS in business books about mission) is why it’s getting worse and more expensive.
Organizations (not necessarily businesses) which optimized for good services and products wouldn’t act this way. They would also be more viable long run. Google is vulnerable to replacement (and some loss of search dominance is showing up) because their service is crap. Facebook has never managed to produce another good product and everything they buy, they crappify. But if people genuinely loved their services (and early Facebook — a timeline just of people you chose to follow, in reverse chronological order) was good, just as Google search, at the start, was breathtakingly good.
Profit first, and shareholders being the only people who matter, has the economy crap. It’s also one of the main reasons (along with oligopolization) for why the US has fallen behind China. Chinese businesses, though they have to make money, exist in a competitive market with an activist government which steps in when it sees excessive crapification. So they make their products better (including cheaper) to compete.
We need to find a new way to organize our society, which doesn’t optimize for profit, but optimizes for organization mission. When we do so, crappification will become the exception, not the rule.
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John9
Money driven as opposed to purpose driven is why the US military industrial complex makes arms that don’t compete particularly well and are outrageously expensive. There will be a time soon when those chickens come home to roost.
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I don’t think there will be. The days of chickens coming home to roost seem to be long gone, if they ever were.
Employee-driven is certainly better than oligarch-driven organizations and/or business entities but none of it is ideal. Employee-driven can still result in a tyrannical, dictatorial organization — the dictatorship of the proletariat so to speak. Employees, much like oligarchs but perhaps for different reasons, have a vested interest in making sure the organization perpetuates come hook or crook. This can and does result in obsolete organizations continuing to exist when they long ago should have disbanded.
Mining is a great example. Think of the contradiction involved in fighting for miners to keep their jobs in the face of automation. It’s a terrible job. A terrible existence. Sure, it;s their livelihood but actually it’s their deathlihood. Mining is terrible period in so many respects but to the extent it can be automated, it should be and sure, yes, the remaining miners should have the best deal possible and their health and rights should be protected but it’s a farce to advocate that their jobs should be protected in perpetuity and that’s just on example of so many.
Eric Anderson
I think that’s why Democratic Socialism (done well) works.
Socialize the necessities | Privatize the luxuries.
Enshittification really only impacts the “necessities.”
The luxuries actually have to actually compete.
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What’s a necessity and what is a luxury? At first blush, it’s easy to say that should be obvious but apparently it’s not.
Is a college education a necessity? Bernie Sanders thinks it is and therefore it should be for all and be free. Of course, nothing is free even if it doesn’t cost you anything and paying the tuition for students to not-for-profit organizations only serves to further drive up the cost of that tuition and to infalte the salaries of the administrations and bloat those administrations thus undermining any original mission, if there ever was one, to educate the masses.
College education is not for everyone and in fact not for most people. It is completely unnecessary for most people. It is not a necessity and yet democratic socialists like Bernie Sanders treat it as though it is a necessity.
Mary Bennett
I would like to see some of these “better” Chinese products. Because at my low consumption level, nothing “made in China” is anything like as well made or useful as the stuff I used to be able to buy way back when. Some of which stuff I still use. Maybe Chinese high end products are better, but I doubt I would buy the if I could afford.
Ian Welsh
A lot of the good stuff isn’t allowed in or is ludicrously tariffed. EVs for example: there doesn’t seem to be any doubt that the Chinese have the best.
Eric Anderson
Wow, Ian. You and Stoller are seriously channeling each other today: https://www.thebignewsletter.com/p/the-number-go-up-rule-why-america?utm_source=post-email-title&publication_id=11524&post_id=168396972&utm_campaign=email-post-title&isFreemail=true&r=2yfgu&triedRedirect=true&utm_medium=email
And note his attention to the boomer class. Pox on the entire world.
Eric Anderson
Like &Subscribe: You’re just repeating talking points. Look at the research. Privatizing does not bring down costs. After cost overrun after cost overrun, after cost overrun, after gouge, graft, and insider favor … the state provides the same or better services cost effective than the private sector.
And Bernie thinks everyone should go to college? Really??? No. Pretty sure he’s on the record saying “education” is a right and should be provided by the State. Education takes many more forms than a 4 year college degree. Noooo. It’s not the socialists pushing this line. It’s the PMC liberals.
Stop it please.
Feral Finster
Henry Ford, FWIW, had similar ideas.
https://www.laphamsquarterly.org/about-money/henry-ford-road-riches#:~:text=My%20idea%20was%20then%20and,and%20out%20of%20its%20earnings.
“My idea was then and still is that if a man did his work well, the price he would get for that work—the profits and all financial matters—would care for themselves and that a business ought to start small and build itself up and out of its earnings.”
Henry Ford was the richest man in the world for a time.
Ian Welsh
Matt is the master of anti-monopoly, but we started at the same blog (BOPNews) and have a fair bit of overlap on technical issues of how to fix capitalism. (We disagree significantly on a lot of foreign affairs opinions and Matt is an American patriot and nationalist.)
Mark Level
Thank you to Eric Anderson. Yes, L&S writes a great deal of stuff that is shallow and uninformed, and based only on his own prejudices. He seems to be a pro-American Empire nationalist based on the tenor of his posts, but evidently doesn’t like Trump. (Broken clock, right 2x daily.)
I guess he is a Dem Blue Maga, “Vote Blue No Matter Who” type, likes the B-Team pretend “Good Cop.” I don’t like either, I identify as post-duopoly.
I really do not know why he comes to this site, when it is so to the left of his very conventional views. When something that COULD (not necessarily will) be good comes up, say Mamdani becoming NYC Mayor, he suddenly becomes an ultra-cynical Leftie, Mamdami will be a guaranteed sell-out, e.g. His BS about Bernie (who I no longer admire) is typical, Left Hippie Punching!! The quote is exactly what Obama (the actual sell-out) was saying: WE elites are not giving you a diminution of Economic Inequality, the only solution is for everyone to go thru expensive Higher Ed and deeply into debt, if you are lucky you will make it into the pretend meritocracy.
I guess he may be on Lawyers, Guns and Money under another handle, that is certainly his crowd– or the Daily Kos? L,G & M lamented that because Trump briefly closed off the aid spigot to the failed Ukraine War, “We (US) are now the Baddies!!” Because Nazi ethno-nationalists should be supported over dirty Neolib Russkies. Maybe he’s not there coz he’d just be another sheep bleating with the choir? Like Trump, he craves attention?
I think I was one of the ones who contributed to “Ms. Jennings” leaving this site because his repeated insane claims that Putin is so Zionist he would allow his own country to be defeated just to please Benjie Netanyahu failed to stand up to any scrutiny. Some people take the hint, some don’t, they just want to be the fly in your soup.
Eric Anderson
Both your posts are laser focusing on the same diagnosis. Refreshing to see consensus developing among the intelligentsia.
cc
And behind this profit-first problem is plutocracy. We won’t get rid of the profit-above-all-else problem while we remain a plutocracy. As Ian said, “we need to find a new way to organize our society” and plutocracy stands in the way of that.
Mark Level
Speaking of how bad the Goggle is (definitely Evil despite its early motto, major profiteers and promoters of the Gaza/ West Bank Genocide), I was researching Mexican cities today and used Goggle maps to consider which cities to look into.
So I happened to be looking at the Atlantic Coast and I saw that there is no more Gulf of Mexico, per the Goggle Corp (beer goggles? Meth goggles?), it is now the “Gulf of America!! Fuck Yeah!!”
Nobody in 98% of the World nor the remaining sane Americans not in the MAGAt Cult believes there is a “Gulf of America” just because Herr Fuhrer declared it so. I was shocked at the ShitLib Denial of reality in the last admin. E.g., Dimmie millionaire media spokesmen repeatedly declaring, There is no Bidenflation, you stupid peasants just imagine it!! Biden is not suffering cognitive decline, this is the BEST Biden ever!! Etc.
But this level of spinelessness and sychophancy goes even further. No wonder this country is doomed, the Elites have now weaponized the Rove “We Create our own Reality” Bullshit– Will it change back to Gulf of Mexico in the unlikely event the Dimmies come back to power? Probably . . . just despicable, not the slightest respect for even the concept of rationality or truth.
mago
Sychophancy, the ass licking widespread pornography among those who think it’s the way to gain favor with those who’ve already ascended the greasy pole and kicked the aspiring climbers in the face.
Some few crude and unschooled greed heads rule over the majority who want decency and equality. The majority wish for positive change, no matter how muddled they may be. Genocide, war, pedophilia and human trafficking are not popular among most. Not that many could articulate it or have any more than fuzzy concepts about it n
It’s Mercury retrograde and everything I type and try to edit and correct goes backwards. It’s weird. Gonna post anyway without completing my thoughts.
Curt Kastens
I just did a Google. de map search. It says Gulf of Mexico with Gulf of America in parentaces.
Mark Level
Curt, I use a Firefox browser (mainly) & mine simply said Gulf of America. YRMD, your results may differ! The AI presents differently to different searches, viewers.
To mago– yes, I am dreading the current Mercury Rx. I am already having problems: 1. Had a legal document for my investments, signed it, there was a part that doesn’t even apply to my situation which I was “supposed” to sign for broker account (which I don’t have.) So the copy I emailed to my adviser and it’s useless, he has to FedEx me a new form to meet the deadline.
2. Rented a storage unit. I need to have renters’ insurance, which I do. Until tomorrow. Called the Insurance corp to renew, “All our system is down, we can’t find your information today or do anything!!”
Rip-roaring start to retrograde Mercury.
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I think it’s a myth and/or wishful thinking that the majority want decency and equality. I think it’s a minority, say 20% or even 10%. Decency, for example, is a subjective concept. Opinions of what is decent or indecent vary, for example. Who’s subjective opinion of what is decent carries the day in a possible brave new world?
GlassHammer
Ian,
Is it uniquely American (or uniquely Western) to so willingly be the Beta Tester for new and unproven Tech?
In my very limited travels abroad I didn’t see that sort of mentality in companies (most wanted more proof or simply said no thank you) I think this is because anything disruptive to core operations could be fatal to the company in a highly competitive market sector. (Maybe the absence of competition creates this devil may care attitude towards new technology.)
different clue
Does this problem set in with businesses over a certain size? I can think of lots of businesses by name which want to keep producing good things and make just enough profit to stay safely in business. Whoever makes WD40, lots of small and little seed companies, small and little tool companies, etc.
In the world of Big Companies, are there any Big Companies whose leaderhips continue wanting to permit or encourage the Company to keep making good things well? Can we say that Honda still wants to make good cars well? If we can, can we say the same for any other Big Companies?
samm
I don’t know, Ian. I am very impressed with your framing of Socrates, but I’m not sure this issue translates to AI and automation. There are a whole host of issues that must be dealt with first.
First step: competitive firms are antagonistic, but worker-owned firms are cooperative. How do you reconcile this contradiction? How does a cooperative keep itself competitive if it relies on democracy to cut costs, for instance? A firm as it exists lays off workers without thought to their well being, but a worker-owned firm by definition is wedded to the opposite. How can a worker-owned firm compete with such ruthless efficiency? Even if traditional firms did not exist, what is the outcome of the competition between two (or more) democratically operated firms? Is there even a difference?
I simply don’t think competitive markets solve as many problems as they create. Humans are far more cooperative than antagonistic. Looking down at my desk I see my keyboard, a device which calls for many layers of cooperation between humans to deliver, from base elements mined from the earth to the tactile tool I punch with my fingers. But there’s not much in terms of competition in this flow. You might say competition has its own distinct realm (i.e. markets) which has an outsized role in the process, but that is hardly a justification.
All this is to say, I don’t see how can competition be assumed to be an automatic good, or even viewed without suspicion, or how worker-owned cooperatives in a competitive market solve any problems.
miss jennings
I think I was one of the ones who contributed to “Ms. Jennings” leaving this site…
I still read the site Mark. I ‘left’ – stopped posting – because of something Ian wrote which may not even have been addressed to me, although I believe it was.
I have posted here under various names over the years. The most prominent voices were probably the very recent ‘Miss Jennings’ and also ‘Jason’ from a while back.
My ‘real’ name is Dan Kelly and I have used it here as well. I sometimes post my bizarre ‘overly Zionist’ takes on Russia and Putin over at MOA under this name.
I misread one of Ian’s pieces at the beginning of this year and posted a rant that I shouldn’t have and then took a break and came back as ‘Miss Jennings.’
I should have just apologized.
I find it extaordinarily difficult to ‘build trust’ on any meaningful level over the internet which is probably why I have had no problem resorting to using various noms de plume over the years.
Ian wrote a comment soon after my ‘Miss Jennings aka…” comment which included the words ‘like and respect’ and, needless to say, I have failed miserably on both fronts.
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Your comments are always interesting, Mark.
I went to the site ‘Lawyers, Guns and Money’ but there are no comments on the site. It looks like commenting is done via Blue Sky.
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When something that COULD (not necessarily will) be good comes up, say Mamdani becoming NYC Mayor, he suddenly becomes an ultra-cynical Leftie, Mamdami will be a guaranteed sell-out…
His track record as part of the DSA in NY isn’t good at all and it appears his selling out is already well under way:
Zohran Mamdani woos Wall Street
‘In a matter of weeks, Zohran Mamdani, the Democratic Socialists of America (DSA) candidate for New York City mayor, has undergone a rapid transformation. After declaring that billionaires should not exist, he is now leading a charm offensive, initiating meetings this week with the gang of financial speculators, real estate swindlers, and corporate chiefs who dictate economic conditions in the center of American capitalism.
Mamdani’s efforts to court New York City’s business elite were paired with overtures to the Democratic Party establishment, including what he described as a “constructive meeting” Friday with House Minority Leader Hakeem Jeffries.
These are the very forces responsible for deepening social inequality and the cost-of-living crisis—conditions Mamdani campaigned against as a vocal critic. His primary victory last month reflected widespread anger toward the Democratic Party apparatus and the oligarchy it serves. But Mamdani’s inevitable evolution since securing the nomination, including his concessions this week, is an unmistakable indication that he ultimately serves the same class interests.
On Tuesday, Mamdani met with over 100 representatives of big business in the offices of Tishman Speyer, the Manhattan-based real estate conglomerate. The location was not publicly disclosed ahead of time for fear of triggering protests. Attendees included executives from Uber, Pfizer, Hearst Corp., Related Cos. and Loews, among many others.
Mamdani chose this meeting to offer an olive branch to his genocide-supporting critics, backtracking on his previous refusal to disavow the slogan “globalize the Intifada.” Mamdani will now discourage the use of that term, he said at the meeting on Tuesday.’
https://www.wsws.org/en/articles/2025/07/19/idfm-j19.html
Kshama Sawant both called out Zamdani’s skethcy past as well as predicted his current betrayals a mere two weeks ago:
Will Zohran Mamdani Empower or Betray the Working Class? (w/ Kshama Sawant)
https://chrishedges.substack.com/p/will-zohran-mamdani-empower-or-betray
And from a week earlier, with Briana desperately trying to play devil’s advocate:
Is Zohran Mamdani “Good for the Left”? Socialist Congressional Candidate Kshama Sawant on #DemExit
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C2n03IhZkiE
‘The politician plays the role of a servant in order to become a master.’
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The days slide by
Should have done, should have done we all sigh
Never thought I’d ever be so lonely
After such a long long time
Time out of mind
https://tinyurl.com/72tutxkd