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If China is with you, you are not isolated in the world

2014 July 21
tags: ,
by Ian Welsh

The shooting down of Malaysian Airlines MH17 has led to a vituperative barrage in the Western media (and social media), blaming Russia.  This barrage has been fomented, in large part, by the White House, which has been relentless.

Many act as if Russia is horribly in the wrong, isolated, and alone.

China’s Xinhua wrote this:

The one-sided accusation is not surprising in light of their long-time stance on the crisis in eastern Ukraine, and their attitude towards Russia’s absorption of Crimea in March. But without convincing evidence, jumping to a conclusion will only heighten regional tension and is not conducive to finding out the truth.

Russian President Vladimir Putin late Thursday said it is Ukraine that bears the responsibility as the tragedy occurred over its territory. The tragedy, Putin said, could have been avoided should Ukraine’s eastern regions be in peace.

If China is with you, you are not alone.  The shooting down of MH17 is a tragedy, as when the US shot down an Iranian jetliner, and it may well have been done by Ukrainian rebels.  But it doesn’t mean Russia is isolated.

And perhaps, when the rebels were known to have SAMs with the distance to shoot down airliners, airliners should not still have been allowed to travel over the conflict region?  That decision is Ukraine’s, by the way.

There can be no defending the targeting of civilians and if this is not a false flag operation, it will turn out to have been a mistake, it is in no one’s interest to be blamed for such an attack.

The conflict in the Ukraine is a conflict of choice: the West’s choice in helping overthrow a democratically elected government, Russia’s choice in at least tolerating and most likely encouraging the separatists (and possibly giving them the BUK, though they also captured at least one system from the Ukrainian army), and Ukraine’s choice, for refusing any negotiations with those of its citizens who want federalization, a not unreasonable requrest when Ukraine has signed up for IMF austerity.


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35 Responses
  1. July 21, 2014

    with a quarter of the worlds population, you are not alone at all. and you are getting closer to the time when you’re side is ahead, because it is not the US which is at in many parts of the arms race, such as the worlds highest building.

  2. subgenius permalink
    July 21, 2014

    Dmitry Orlov has an interesting comment on this topic…
    http://cluborlov.blogspot.com/2014/07/fact-free-zone.html?m=1

  3. July 21, 2014

    I enjoyed Dmitry’s analysis. Of course, I have no idea why this act was committed, but there’s also the possibility of a sociopath with the means to satisfy his sickness under the fog of war. True, with the amount of “interest” this crime generated it is prudent to analyze the costs, benefits, and motives that may have caused it, but at the end of it it may be just as banal as a lone sicko with a (really) big gun.

    Happens here all the time.

  4. John Puma permalink
    July 22, 2014

    Certainly Russia ia not isolated as the agreement (linked below) proves and which some (eg Tarpley) have suggested was the motive for retaliation via the destruction of the airliner and the concerted effort to blame Russia.

    http://tinyurl.com/olt6dfu

  5. Syd permalink
    July 22, 2014

    I’d give the rebels the benefit of the doubt for the moment if they had secured the crash site. Moving things around and keeping investigators away from the wreckage makes them look guilty as hell.

    The rebels must have been drunk. A plane flying at over 30,000 feet at 600 mph in a straight line toward the Russian border just a few miles away could not be a Ukrainian cargo plane. This wasn’t a decision made under kill or be killed conditions. It should have been obvious.

  6. July 22, 2014

    This is precisely why America is not and never will be isolated. China is with America much more substantially than it will ever be with Russia, all misleading rhetoric aside. Trade is the only thing that matters because trade equals profit. In 2013 China had a net positive trade balance of $319 billion with America. China will talk a good game, but it knows where its bread is buttered. Without that positive trade imbalance with America, it’s toast — the Big Bubble China is goes bang and then we can say “who’s talking now?” Let China talk all it wants, but it’s not about to bite the hand that feeds it. Talk is cheap — that’s why I don’t pay any attention to it.


    I Think I’m Going To Buk

  7. thepanzer permalink
    July 22, 2014

    Cold,

    I disagree. China has no friends, but it does have interests. The US has made it clear via it’s actions that it’s solutions for fossil fuel depletion and climate change are to turn it’s former allies (western Europe and anyone else dumb enough to stay onboard the dollar) into resource pumps to keep America afloat. Or to put it more plainly, the US plans to “eat” it’s allies to keep itself alive. The Ukraine debacle and treatment of Russia can’t make it any clearer. Either you let America eat you or America will attempt to destroy you. That gives nations two options.

    1. become an American resource colony, have your economy leached over time for US benefit, and have your elites prosper while everyone else suffers…at least until socioeconomic conditions cause a reactionary govt to come to power.

    2. Resist becoming a resource colony, but with the knowledge that the US will use it’s dollar reserve currency status to blackmail you into submission, try to overthrow your govt, and/or find a pretext for military intervention if your country is small and weak.

    The Chinese having gone through the horrors of the cultural revolution know full well what happens in the backlash of a socioeconomic crisis. Likewise I don’t see them willing to prostrate themselves before our overweening presidents, which is another requirement from #1 above.

    That leaves option 2, which we see them doing as they continue to put as much distance between themselves and the US, while trying to still maintain the economic advantages for as long as they last. (and it won’t last forever.) So expect increasing resistance from the Chinese to US “leadership” as it gets the BRICs non-dollar effort moving over the next few decades. Once the economic relationship with the west becomes a net negative, the relationship may change very, very quickly.

  8. thepanzer permalink
    July 22, 2014

    Oops. Sorry for all the “it’s” versus “its.” I hate english.

  9. July 22, 2014

    Cold,
    I disagree.

    WHAT? I’m not sure how to handle this response. I’m not accustomed to people disagreeing with me because no one ever does. :-)

    Why all the long faces around here lately? Everyone’s so sad. Don’t be sad, lads. Cheer up. It’s all good. There’s no need for mental hospitals, bridges to jump off of, medication — any of that. Strength through adversity, that’s my motto. It’ll make you tough as nails. Hit me with your best shot — fire away.

  10. Q. Shtik permalink
    July 22, 2014

    Mr Welsh,

    You are not being consistent in the way you make reference to that country above Crimea and the Black Sea. For example, you wrote:

    1. The conflict in [the Ukraine] is a conflict of choice:
    2. …a not unreasonable requrest when [Ukraine] has signed up for IMF austerity.

    Media outlets such as the NY Times, respected for their adherence to correct grammar and usage, came to the conclusion more than 20 years ago that “the Ukraine” was grammatically incorrect. See the link below which I obtained from the Times’ Public Editor’s office on this subject.

    http://www.ukrweekly.com/old/archive/1991/499102.shtml

    Likewise, “the Crimea” is incorrect.

    When I point this out to people they invariably say in a huff, “Oh yeah, oh yeah, well what about “the Netherlands” and “the Philippines?”

    If you or anyone actually cared (which I doubt), I would offer an explanation for why “the” is appropriate in these and certain other cases.

    Sincerely,

    Q. from the New Jersey

  11. Q. Shtik permalink
    July 22, 2014

    While I am in troll mode, I must address your prior post which you headlined as “Israel’s killing of Palestinians and the Media.”

    I know Israel has been killing many Palestinians but I have not heard that they were killing the Media. How might you edit that headline so it is less nonsensical?

    Q.

    (Ian – while you are correct, it is also true that no one has had a problem understanding it. However, fixed up, thanks for pointing it out in as supercilious a manner as possible.)

  12. Q. Shtik permalink
    July 22, 2014

    “while you are correct, it is also true that no one has had a problem understanding it.” – Ian

    Or so you believe. I actually scratched my head for a few seconds.

    People absolutely HATE being corrected. Yours is a typical response. In fact, more than typical, it is nearly universal. My daughter would say “everybody knows what it means………and besides they don’t give a shit.”

    In future comments I will TRY to deal with the content.

    Q.

    (A lot depends on /how/ you correct people. I am often corrected, and people who do it without snide condescension generally find me very gracious about it. Perhaps your daughter is reacting to /how/ you provide correction — Ian.)

  13. Celsius 233 permalink
    July 22, 2014

    @ Ian,
    Q. Schtik is a pedant from Kunstler’s blog. He’s always correcting somebody for something grammatical or spelling. I hope this infestation is short lived…

  14. Q. Shtik permalink
    July 22, 2014

    “Q. Schtik is a pedant from Kunstler’s blog. He’s always correcting somebody for something grammatical or spelling.”

    Ian, what Sellseeus 322 says is quite true. He forgot to mention that I’m certifiably OCD when it comes to grammar, spelling, usage etc. It is literally maddening to me to see the carelessness and not say something about it. BTW, I haven’t commented over at CFN in nearly 6 months.

    Sellseeus 322 gets especially annoyed because he/she/it cannot seem to write a post without making an error. Take, for example, the post above … even here he managed to spell my name incorrectly. (He will claim he did it on purpose to get my goat.) But who gives a shit since we all know he was speaking of me, right?

  15. Troy permalink
    July 23, 2014

    Q. Shtik, you should really take advantage of email or private messaging. Four out of five posts about grammar and/or spelling when the original topic is about Russia and China is simply ridiculous. Please, stay on topic.

  16. Trixie permalink
    July 23, 2014

    Hi Q. Shtik,

    Some notes:

    I know Israel has been killing many Palestinians [COMMA] but I have not heard that they were killing the Media.

    “everybody knows what it means……… [...] and besides they don’t give a shit.”

    …when it comes to grammar, spelling, usage [COMMA] etc.

    It is literally maddening FOR me…

    …we all know he was speaking ABOUT me, right?

    Thanks!

  17. July 23, 2014

    While you are trading off blows about spelling, there is actually some real news here. that news in the abstract is how many bodies are being treated from Israeli side versus the number of Palestinian bodies. once upon a time the number was entirely Palestinian bodies with a very minor number of us really bodies. it had been this way for long time, because the Israelis decided it would be better off to not go after Lebanon. now, though they are still trading off vast numbers of bodies, they are not doing so at the same rate of Israeli bodies for each Palestinian party. while this rate still favors the Israeli bodies, it does not do so at the same rate as before, even the rate with hospitals throughout in. this indicates that the phase where Palestinians can be comped on is limited.

    the result is there is some time, probably for four to 7 years, when even these Palestinian bodies will be in good shape to defend them selves. they will not stand up to Israelis, but they will damage them. in other words, peace will be required in 10 or so years. I will now return you back to putting over commas and other stuff which you seem to enjoy.

  18. Celsius 233 permalink
    July 23, 2014

    @ Stirling:

    Yes, yanked back to Gaza and to the point.
    Palestinians have no voice, no power, no rights.
    They have bodies and are willing to sacrifice all for their small piece of justice and recognition.
    Their children, their women, their bodies…
    But the world is blinded by Maya and that Maya is encouraged, sold, and packaged by the elite across the spectrum.
    Israel’s day’s are numbered; they sign their own doom by their actions and time is not on their side…

  19. Q. Shtik permalink
    July 23, 2014

    Hello (again) Trixie. Thanks for the tips. I can always count on you to put me in my place.

    Am I correct that the unspoken message in your post is that only commenters whose writings are flawless should presume to mention flaws in the writings of others? If so, the classrooms of the world would be without teachers.

    And to Troy, kindly provide your email address so that I may discuss something off-line with you that does not concern Ian’s current topic. No? I didn’t think so.

  20. Q. Shtik permalink
    July 23, 2014

    “Palestinians have no voice, no power, no rights.
    They have bodies and are willing to sacrifice all for their small piece of justice and recognition.
    Their children, their women, their bodies…” – Celsius

    Someone over at the CFN blog posted these two links:

    http://i.imgur.com/d0VlmZo.jpg
    http://imeu.org/article/comparison-of-millitary-strength-of-israel-and-the-palestinians

    Looking at them, one would have to conclude that the Palestinians are either crazy or stupid. But they are neither. The tactic, of course, is to sacrifice themselves – especially their children – (there is nothing more pathetic than a wailing swarthy Arab holding the limp body of his child) in the hope that world opinion will sway far enough in their direction. This is their voice and their power.

    BTW, Celsius, I am not hip to your Maya reference. What does it mean?

  21. markfromireland permalink
    July 23, 2014

    Of all the many foul slurs on the Palestinians put about by Golda Meir the one about how Arabs use their children is one of the most vile.

    The latter-day variants one of which I am sorry to see is contaminating the comments section of this posting is just as viciously racist, just as perverted, and just as disgusting, and the fact that somebody feels they can use it says many things about them. None of them good.

    mfi

  22. Trixie permalink
    July 23, 2014

    Hello (again) Trixie.

    Hi!

    As always, I remain on the edge of my seat.

  23. oldskpetic permalink
    July 23, 2014

    An interesting leak….

    “(Australian) Prime Minister Tony Abbott has asked Defence chiefs and senior government officials to prepare plans for Australia to join a possible multinational force to enter Ukraine to secure the crash site of MH17.

    Hardening his language around the need for international intervention to ensure a genuine air crash investigation and recovery effort is conducted, Mr Abbott on Wednesday signalled he was willing to send more Australians to Ukraine to enforce the United Nations resolution that the almost 300 victims are recovered ”with immediate effect”. ”

    Now nothing Australia does is on its own now, so we can reasonably speculate the he has been contacted by the US to sound him out to see if we would send forces to the Ukraine, right into rebel territory.

    Probably the planned ‘end game’ from this (increasingly likely) ‘false flag’ operation, though there is a lot of back peddling going on now.

    http://www.theage.com.au/federal-politics/political-news/we-must-bring-them-all-home-20140723-3cfyy.html

  24. Q. Shtik permalink
    July 23, 2014

    mfi, what, in your opinion, is the rationale of Palestinian leadership/HMAS for lobbing ineffective rockets into Israel?

  25. markfromireland permalink
    July 23, 2014

    @ oldskpetic July 23, 2014

    Now nothing Australia does is on its own now, so we can reasonably speculate the he has been contacted by the US to sound him out to see if we would send forces to the Ukraine, right into rebel territory.

    Not necessarily. He could simply be demonstrating extreme servility secure in the knowledge that the offer won’t be taken up. The current crop of neocons infesting the American corridors of power seem to enjoy such displays from their fellow believers in the satrapies rather more than is entirely healthy for any of the parties involved.

    I would hope that the Australian high command retains enough professional integrity to point out to their civilian masters that forces from countries allied to what is now seen in Moscow as an enemy power arriving in Ukraine would be even less welcome than a turd in a swimming pool and that Moscow’s reaction would be distinctly unpleasant for everyone in its path. Obama may be ill-informed and ill-advised enough to dismiss Russia as “regional power” but when your region is the entirety of Eurasia your reach by definition is long enough to hurt “The Lucky Country”. In my experience of them Russian politicians and military people don’t subscribe to the forgive and forget school of geo-politics particularly not when it comes to the “near abroad”.

    Agreed re: false flag.

    mfi

  26. oldskpetic permalink
    July 23, 2014

    Yes Mark my gut feel is that our military people will say “yes Prime Minister, we will go away and do some planning, it could take awhile…we’ll get back when we’ve finished our….. planning’.

    And ‘satrapy’ is the perfect word for Australia, don’t think there there’s been a US war without Australia being involved. This is the country of “we’re all the way with LBJ” after all (what one of our Prime Minsters actually said about us getting involved in Vietnam).

    We were a loyal one for the UK, then jumped ship. I expect in the future we will be as just a good one for China or Japan……

    But there could easily have have been communication from the (neo-con) State Dept through the US Embassy. So I’d toss a coin over those possibilities.

    Not forgetting that those that planned this ‘false flag’ would also have their next steps planned. Rapid Trident 2014 is supposed to be happening now (can’t find it’s current status though) which means NATO troops actually on Ukrainian soil. So the logical move is to use the horror over the shoot down to justify NATO troops moving against the rebels then onto the Crimea.

    “Securing the crash site” is as good an excuse to start this as any I suppose. And since Australia “took the lead” (ie read from the script they were handed) in the UNSC, makes sense to use them again to “lead” this operation.

    I expect, behind the scenes, the US military and parts of their Intelligence community are fighting hard against this, as they did against the planned Syrian ‘adventure’.

  27. oldskpetic permalink
    July 23, 2014

    Interesting, exercise Rapid Trident 2014 has been moved back to Sept …internal US military ‘push back’?

  28. July 23, 2014

    Don’t make me laugh with the “false flag” talk. That meme is overwrought. It’s time to come up with a new one.

    Russia’s in the catbird seat and all is going according to plan. Destabilization and Balkanization of Ukraine is well under way and proceeding nicely. It may take several years or more, but it’ll get there — just you wait and see.


    Heads Russia Wins, Tails Ukraine Loses

  29. Celsius 233 permalink
    July 23, 2014

    @ mfi
    “In my experience of them Russian politicians and military people don’t subscribe to the forgive and forget school of geo-politics particularly not when it comes to the “near abroad”.”

    Agreed, it’s my experience as well. I was married to a Ukrainian not born in the U.S. (emigrated). Her family and friends all fought in WWII and they still carried memories and a very unforgiving attitude towards those enemies. Their stories of surviving the war were incredible. We have absolutely no idea.

  30. Q. Shtik permalink
    July 23, 2014

    correction:

    /HAMAS

  31. July 24, 2014

    Her family and friends all fought in WWII and they still carried memories and a very unforgiving attitude towards those enemies.

    I consider this good news. If what you say is true, then we can rest assured there will be no rapprochement between Russia and Germany like so many are clamoring for.

    Americans have long memories too. Or do they? Does anyone, despite saying they do? Look at illegal immigration from Mexico and enjoy the following Johnny Cash offering. I love mes some Johnny.


    Remember The Alamo

    Sorry, Johnny — no one, or almost no one, remembers the Alamo. Like grammar, no one gives a shit. What a ridiculous saying — “give a shit.” I don’t want anyone’s shit, so I’m glad they don’t give it.

  32. Q. Shtik permalink
    July 24, 2014

    Apparently mfi has filed Q. under DNR (do not respond [to]).

    Yesterday I asked about the rationale of Palestinian leadership for lobbing [militarily] ineffective rockets into Israel.

    Today’s NYT runs this lead article:

    http://www.nytimes.com/2014/07/24/world/middleeast/israel-says-hamas-is-using-civilians-as-shields-in-gaza.html?_r=0

    Key sentences:

    “… it is indisputable that Gaza militants operate in civilian areas, draw return fire to civilian structures, and on some level *benefit in the diplomatic arena from the rising casualties.* They also have at times encouraged residents not to flee their homes when alerted…”

  33. Formerly T-Bear permalink
    July 24, 2014

    Off the top of the head, Gaza contains about 140 sq. miles at 640 acres per is just under 90,000 acres. With a population of about 1.8 million people that allows 20 people per acre. Please indicate just where in Gaza there isn’t a civilian area. Don’t overlook the zionist security zone inside Gaza of some half mile or so that children are commonly shot and killed for ‘trespassing’ on their own farms or playing football in their fields. Find out for yourself what percent of the population is 18 or under. When you can justify that, then speak of zionist rights. The stench of zionist propaganda is no different than that of a swine abattoir.

  34. July 25, 2014

    It’s like the line about the phone calls before launching a rocket into someone’s home. That is actually intended as an alibi, not a “humanitarian” act. The logic is apparently that if they’re forewarned and still in the building, it’s not a war crime.

  35. Celsius 233 permalink
    July 25, 2014

    @ Mandos
    July 25, 2014
    That is actually intended as an alibi, not a “humanitarian” act.
    ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
    Your post is spot on. The apologists for Israeli behavior towards the Palestinians are the vilest of human scum. And the UN is among that ilk. It has lost all credibility and succumbed to the worst of hand puppets of the west. The UN has once again proved itself worthless in the course of human events.

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