Trump’s Not-So-Crazed Speech in Ohio
I took the time to read the transcript of Trump’s speech, the entire transcript. It has three parts to it. First he talks about what he’s going to do in very general terms (ra ra, we can fix America); then he takes a victory lap and exorciates the press, and then he talks more about what he’s going to do.
According to this:
- Cut taxes so that companies stay in the US.
- Reduce regulations so corporations can produce in the US.
- Renegotiate or leave NAFTA.
- Consider leaving other trade deals seems implicit.
- Repeal Obamacare.
- Do something so people have healthcare
- Stop immigration from certain (aka. Muslim countries) and stop taking refugees.
- Massive infrastructure projects, including in the inner cities and rural America.
- For that infrastructure program, buy American and hire American.
- Specifically bring back manufacturing the rust belt.
- He’s hired some billionaires, etc… that’s because he wants nasty winners on his team
- Executive branch employees can’t lobby for 5 years after working, can never lobby for foreign governments.
- Child support affordable for all.
- Increased pay and opportunities for women.
- Partner with any nation to kill ISIS.
- But other than that, no more wars.
- More money for cops.
- Great Wall
- Work with other nations for win-win deals.
- Repeal environmental restrictions on petroleum industries.
This is populist, little America-ism. Isolationism, bilateral trade deals, mind-our-own-business, combined with standard Republican tax cut and regulation policy.
Let me be clear, I think parts of this program are idiocy: American companies often pay no tax already, and tax’s aren’t the primary issue in production. That doesn’t mean companies don’t use tricks to avoid paying American taxes, but there are ways to make them pay them. While there are certainly regulations which can be done away with, in general regulations aren’t the issue either.
Climate change is real, so gutting enviro protections is insane, and coal jobs aren’t coming back no matter what. Immigrants aren’t a significant problem, etc… Crime isn’t up, it’s down.
(He also inflated the trade deficit by about 300 billion, but it’s still too large.)
That said, this ain’t crazy stuff overall. What it is is a change from the current consensus on some important issues: especially American foreign and trade policy. The tax cuts are just more of the same.
I have doubts that Trump will be able to deliver on all of this, and he’s going to need to find some big pots of money to even try, especially given his tax cuts. His cabinet, while made up of rich people, does not engender confidence that he means what he says about corruption.
All that said, it’s NOT a crazy speech.
Now, if you read it below, you’ll also notice a very long and extended attack on the Press. It’s quite clear that Trump, personally, despises the press. But that doesn’t mean this isn’t also good strategy, much of the press, while they’ll cover him to inches, is going to work to de-legitimize him, so he needs to de-legitimize them.
I’m also tired of cherry picking. Trump wants to do some things that I truly despise. But, for example, killing the TPP was a really good thing. If he actually does follow thru on his foreign policy promise of not attacking any more countries, that’d be a really good thing. Not everything Trump wants to do is bad, just as not everything he wants to do is good.
It should also be noted that Trump goes out of his way in this speech, as he does in many, to declare his love for African-Americans and Hispanics and to say he intends to help them. Will he? Well, not with police violence, but otherwise we’ll see.
Trump, very clearly, wants to be loved and adulated. That is his primary goal here. Trump would love nothing more than in 7 years to be able to go to a rally with primarily Blacks or Hispanics and be cheered. So, while I don’t think he’ll deliver for them, I do think he wants to.
I’ve put the transcript below. I’ve taken out most of the (Applause) and (Booing) lines. Original transcript is from c-span.
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Transcript
For too long, Washington has tried to put us in boxes. They separate us by race, by age, by income, by geography, by place of birth. We spend too much time focusing on what divides us. Now is the time to embrace the one thing that truly unites us. You know what that is? America, America. It’s America.
You hear a lot of talk about how we’re becoming a globalized world, but the relationships people value in this country are local — family, city, state,…
There is no global anthem, no global currency, no certificate of global citizenship. We pledge allegiance to one flag, and that flag is the American…
From now on, it’s going to be America first, OK? America first.
We’re gonna put ourselves first. We seek peace and harmony with the nations of the world, but that means recognizing the right of every country including our own to look after its citizens. We would put other countries first. We had people running our country that truly didn’t know what the hell they we’re doing. OK?
We’re going to defend the American worker. Look what’s happened right here. They forgot about the American worker. They forgot that it was the American worker who truly built our country. We are not going to forget, believe me.
One of the reasons we’re so divided today is because our government has failed to protect the interests of the American workers and their families, making it too easy for us to see ourselves as distinct groups and not unified as a whole. We’re not unified, we’re going to be.
Washington’s politicians has spent so long appealing to competing interest, they forgot how to appeal to the national interest, combining the skills and talents of our people in a common cause. And we have unbelievable talent, but that is all about to change.
Our goal is to strengthen the bonds of trust between citizens to restore our sense of membership in a shared national community. Global is wonderful, but right now, we want to focus on our national community.
We’re going to seek a truly inclusive society where we support each other, love each other and look out for each other. And that means that people coming into our country have to be people that have the potential to love us, not to hate us.
We condemn bigotry and prejudice in all of its forms. We denounce all of the hatred and we forcefully reject the language of exclusion and separation. We’re gonna come together. We have no choice, we have to — and it’s better — it’s better.
We seek a future where every American child is fully included in the American dream. We’re gonna have our own American dream…
… and we’re gonna bring back the American dream.
The problems that plague our inner cities or that afflict poor rural communities — we do have those rural communities. Some of them are poor. We’re gonna help those people, we’re gonna rebuild those communities.
They’re not permanent features of American life. They can be fixed. And together, we’re gonna fix them. We are going to fix them.
We’ve spent — as of this week, according to the latest count, we’ve spent $6 trillion in the Middle East and the Middle East today is far worse than it’s ever been.
You will see changes very quickly.
A shrinking — you will see it. A shrinking workforce and flat wages are not the new normal. And we’re not even talking about flat, we’re talking about wages, where some of you in this audience, hard- working, incredible Americans were making more money 20 years ago than you’re making today. And today, you’re older and you’re working harder. And in many cases, you have two jobs. Some of that is because of Obamacare. And, by the way, we are repealing and replacing Obamacare.
We can reverse the stagnation and usher in a period of true opportunity and growth. Endless gridlock is not a way of life any longer. We don’t have to accept that. Government can be responsive, and we can become proud again of how Washington works.
And I have spoken to Democrats, and I said to them, look, we can’t go on with this gridlock. It’s gone on for so many years. It’s gone on for so many years. They can’t get together. We’re gonna get together, and I believe they want to get together. You know why, because it’s time and the people are angry — they’re angry. And they’re going to get together.
We’re going to make joint decisions, we are. And the nice part, our victory was so great, we have the House, we have the Senate, and we have the presidency.
But we want to get them on board also.
People are constantly telling me and telling you to reduce our expectations. Those people are fools. They’re fools. But this campaign proved that the old rules no longer apply, that anything we want for our country is now possible. Anything, right?
Now is not the time to downsize our dreams, but to set our sights higher than ever before for our country.
Now is the time to push for real profound change that restores the full promise of America for all of its people, and those people are great people. I got to know them, believe me, over the last 18 months. And what we’ve created is a movement, and it’s a beautiful thing.
You take a look here, the roads are all gridlocked, all gridlocked, all locked down, all secured up and people pour in. It’s an amazing thing.
Now is the time to unlock the potential of millions of Americans left on the sidelines — their talents unused, their dreams unrealized, and their aspirations totally forgotten. And these are people of great talent.
This is the moment. This is our chance. This is our window for action. This is the hour when the great deeds can be done and our highest hopes can come true. We’re gonna do it, folks. We’re gonna do it.
We’re gonna do it.
(APPLAUSE)
Thank you. I love you, too.
Guy — some guy, look at this guy. And I do love him. He is a rough-looking cookie though, I’ll tell you. We — we love, we have a lot of love, believe me, gonna be a lot of love in our country.
Driven by these goals, I’m working to assemble a detailed action plan for America. My plan begins with a bold structural reform to create millions of new jobs and rapidly expand our economic growth. And you see what’s happening with taxes. You see what’s happening with regulations, which are totally out of control.
Right now we punish companies for doing business in America. They’re actually punished, that’s why they’re leaving. And, by the way, I have to say this, we are going to reduce taxes to appoint that (inaudible) for the middle class, in particular…
… but for our companies. And we’re gonna reduce the regulations.
But if a company wants to still leave the state of Ohio or Pennsylvania, or how about North Carolina? How well did we do in North Carolina?
Remember when they said, he cannot win North Carolina, so we had just won Ohio, Iowa, and we had just won Florida. Breaking news, Donald Trump has won Florida. They say, whoa.
And we won it big. But then the people back there, the extremely dishonest press said…
(BOOING) Right?
Very dishonest people. How about — how about — I mean, how dishonest. How about when a major anchor who hosted a debate started crying when she realized that we won?
How about it? Tears. Oh, tell me, this isn’t true. And you know what she doesn’t understand? Things are going to be much better now.
She doesn’t understand.
I mean, think of it, we won in a landslide. That was a landslide, and we didn’t have the press. The press was brutal. You know what?
Hey, in the great state of Ohio, we didn’t have the upper echelon of politicians either, did we?
But I will say this — I will say this, and it was very nice. Your Governor John Kasich called me after the election…
… and was very nice. He said, congratulations, that was amazing. He couldn’t believe how much we won Ohio by — or the election by.
Remember, you cannot get to 270, the dishonest press.
There is no road.
Folks, how many times did we hear this? There is no path to 270.
There is no path.
There is no path for Donald Trump.
Texas is in play. You remember that one?
Now as a Republican, I’m supposed to win Texas. As a Republican, I’m supposed to win Georgia. As a Republican, I’m supposed to win the great state of Utah — I love Utah. I love those states.
Remember when they said Donald Trump is going to lose to some guy I never even heard of? Who is that guy?
He is going to lose to this guy, but the people of Utah were amazing, and we trounced them.
We trounced them.
And, by the way, Hillary came in second, and that guy came in third. I was still trying to figure out — I’m still trying to figure out what was he gonna prove. Did he wanna — I wondered about what the hell was he trying to prove. I guess, he wanted us to lose the Supreme Court. That’s about the only thing he was gonna get.
But think of it, they said, I’ll tell you what — just two — three weeks before the election — and my friends are telling me just the opposite. They live in Texas and Georgia. They said, Georgia is in play. Texas is in play. That means like we’re even. And then we won in a landslide most states, I said, what happened?
Right?
They go for weeks, Texas is in play. Then you turn on the television like two minutes later — Donald Trump has won Texas, you know.
These are very, very dishonest people. OK.
I love this stuff. Should I go on with this just a little bit longer?
I love it. How about — it’s like 12 o’clock in the evening and Pennsylvania — I’m — I’m leading by a lot, and we couldn’t get off 98 percent. They didn’t want to call it. We’re leading by so much that it’s impossible — if lost every other vote, and they refuse to call. Then at 3 o’clock — I’ll never forget it. I watched that particular person, and we won Wisconsin, and we won Michigan… (APPLAUSE)
… and we won Pennsylvania, right? And that person is doing the map, and that person was saying for months that there’s no way that Donald Trump can…
We didn’t break it, we shattered that sucker.
We shattered it — we shattered it.
That poor wall is busted up. So, I’ll never forget it though because it felt so good.
You know, more so because they kept saying there’s no path and all this nonsense. So — and I go out and see the people like this, and I’d say, how are we going to lose? I mean, how are we going to lose?
But what happened? So, they’ll say, we win Wisconsin. Donald Trump, 38 years or so, Donald Trump has won Michigan. And then they’re looking at the map, they’re saying, oh, wow, there’s no way for Hillary Clinton to become president. Donald Trump is president…
… of the United States, oh, amazing.
It’s amazing — really amazing.
And one of the announcers — one of the announcers, I have to tell you from ESPN, now they cover football, and boxing and everything, right? And he went out, he said, I got to tell you, that event last night — meaning the election results — was better than any fight, any baseball game, any football game.
He said, that was the most exciting event I have ever seen, and it was politics.
And then you look at the NFL. Well, now they should start recovering, but their ratings were so far down, and you know what that reason was? This — because this business is tougher than the NFL. It’s crazy. The people liked it. Their ratings were down 20 or 21 percent, and it was because of us. So, we had a lot of fun. The bottom line is we won — we won. (APPLAUSE)
We won big.
Whether it’s producing steel, building cars or curing disease, we want the next generation of innovation and production to happen right here in America and right here in Ohio, right?
First on taxes. We’re going to massively lower taxes and make America the best place in the world to hire, to invest, to grow, to create and to expand. We’ll do that.
On regulation, we’re going to eliminate every single wasteful regulation that undermines the ability of our workers and our companies to compete with companies from foreign lands. We’re going to do it.
We have the greatest competitors on Earth. And, by the way, I put on some of the greatest business people in the world. One of the networks said, why he put on a billionaire at Commerce? Well, that’s because this guy knows how to make money, folks.
He knows how to make money. I’d like to put on a guy that failed all his life, but we don’t want that, do we? No, he’s a (inaudible) on a killer, and I — I have been honest. I said, I am going to be putting on the greatest killers you’ve ever seen. We need that. It’s time, it’s time — it’s time.
We have a great, great cabinet. I’ll tell you what’s coming, and waiting until you see what we have next week. Are we doing a good job with our cabinet and our people?
And I don’t want to tell you — I don’t want to tell you this because I want to save the suspense for next week, so I will not tell you. I refuse to tell — and don’t let it outside of this room. Do you promise? Raise your hand, promise.
So, I will not tell you that one of our great, great generals — don’t let it outside, right? And, of course, the press is very honest, so I’ll never let this go. Even though it’s all live, they got about seven stations live. We are going to appoint Mad Dog Mattis…
(APPLAUSE) … as our Secretary of Defense.
But we’re not announcing until Monday, so don’t tell anybody. Mad Dog. He is great, he is great.
I asked one of the generals — I love the generals — and I won’t use his name, but he probably would come forward. But I said to him, you’re a good general, aren’t you? Yes, sir, I am. I said, so how do you compare to General Mattis? How do you compare to Mad Dog? Sir, he is better than I am.
I loved it. I said, I love you to say that. They love him. So, we’re going to be announcing him on Monday of next week. Keep it inside the room, but that’s what we have, and he’s our best. They say he is the closest thing to General George Patton that we have and it’s about time, it’s about time.
OK. So I gave — I gave up a little secret. My people over there are probably saying, you weren’t supposed to do that, Mr. Trump.
On energy, we will pursue energy independence and cancel the job- killing restrictions on the production of shale energy, oil, natural gas and clean coal, and we’re going to put the miners of Ohio back to work.
On infrastructure, we will build new roads, tunnels, bridges, railways, airports, schools and hospitals, including major projects in the inner cities. There’s such potential in the inner cities.
We’re not using our potential. Remember when I would make the speeches, I’d say, what the hell do you have to lose?
The African-American community was so great to me in this election. They were so great to me.
Amazing.
The Hispanic community, I did great with the Hispanic community, higher than people that were supposed to have done well. I felt it.
And is this really a big surprise? We did great with women. Can you believe it?
Great with women.
A couple of polls came in…
A couple of polls came in in the early states, and they said, we don’t believe it. He’s doing well with women. But every time I went out, I saw those beautiful pink signs, right? Women for Trump, and I knew we were gonna do well. So, we did great with women, we did great with everybody.
We will deepen our harbors and new lanes of commerce across the nation. We have harbors that ships can even go into.
We will have two simple rules when it comes…
They don’t know that Hillary lost a couple of weeks ago. They forgot.
Where do these people come from? Oh, well. They’re taking her back home to mom. No, it’s true, it’s true. They don’t realize. They don’t know it.
You know, a lot of the people that protested we said, did you vote? No, I didn’t vote. They don’t vote. They never vote.
Do you agree with my stance that if people burn the American flag…
… there should be consequences, right? I think so. I think so.
We will have two simple rules when it comes to this massive rebuilding effort, buy American and hire American. We’re gonna do it ourselves — we’re gonna do it ourselves.
And that will be our new mantra.
On trade, the history of nations teaches us that the strength of a country and its trade, and manufacturing sector is vital to both its economic prosperity and national security because we don’t do that. Our borders are weak. Our trade is terrible. You’re going to see it turn that is so big, and it’s gonna happen so fast, and we started today in Indiana. Believe me, that’s just the beginning. That’s just the beginning.
Our trade deficit now is nearly $800 billion a year. It’s a chronic drag on growth and a destroyer. It destroys the wealth of our country and jobs — and jobs.
Ohio has lost one-third of its manufacturing jobs since NAFTA. And you know the nice part? Now, I don’t have to say, signed by Bill Clinton and approved by Hillary. Who cares? All I can tell you is that NAFTA is a disaster. What difference does it make? We will fix NAFTA or we’ll terminate it and start all over again.
America has lost 70,000 factories — hard to believe. I always say that’s a typo. 70,000 factories since China joined the World Trade Organization. Think of it.
In the year 2000, America had nearly 20 million manufacturing jobs in the Rust Belt, OK? Today, we have only 12.3 million manufacturing jobs left in the Rust Belt. We’re gonna bring them back — we’re gonna bring them back.
We’re gonna bring them back. The Rust Belt has been hammered — and one of the reasons I won. It’s one of the reasons I won. Ohio, as an example, is down from 1.2 million manufacturing jobs in the year 2000 to only 690,000 jobs today. Not gonna happen anymore, folks.
Or take Michigan, they’re down from 900,000 manufacturing jobs in the year 2000 to only 600,000 manufacturing jobs today. I see these numbers and it’s sad. But what isn’t sad, because this is all about hope, but it’s real hope because we’re going to turn that around so fast.
And we don’t want Ford leaving and going to Mexico to build its small cars. We don’t want it. We’re gonna turn it all around.
We’re living through the greatest jobs theft in the history of the world. I’ve been saying it for months. It used to be the cars were made in Flint, right, and you couldn’t drink the water in Mexico. Today, the cars are made in Mexico and you can’t drink the water in Flint, Michigan. You know that, right? What a difference, but we’re turning that around. What a terrible thing that was, too. Gross incompetence on so many levels.
The era of economic surrender is over. We’re going to fight for every last American job. It’s time to remove the rust from the Rust Belt and usher in a new industrial revolution. We’re gonna do it.
On health care reform, we will repeal and replace Obamacare. We have no choice — we have no choice.
And we will finally fix health care for America’s incredible veterans — veterans. We love our veterans.
Where are the veterans? Raise your hand. Who’s a veteran?
We got a lot of veterans. Our veterans have not been treated properly. And I want to thank our veterans, and I want to thank the military, and I want to thank our police forces because the number of votes I got was staggering, staggering.
For whatever reason, people in uniforms like Trump. I don’t know. I have to figure that out. These are great people. We’re gonna take care of our veterans, and we’re working right now on somebody to run the Veterans Administration who will be terrific, believe me, terrific. And I’ll be watching, too. I’ll be watching.
On childcare, I’m asking Congress to pass legislation to support the American family and make safe and affordable childcare accessible to all. It’s so important.
Our agenda will fight to increase pay and opportunities for women in the workforce. Support women entrepreneurs.
Who is a woman entrepreneur here? Who are the women? A lot of them.
I hate to tell you men, generally speaking, they’re better than you are.
Now, if I said it the other way around, I’d be in big trouble, don’t you? And we’re going to make sure that no one is penalized for the decision to have a family. Right now, they are penalized.
On crime, the murder rate has experienced its largest increase in 45 years in our country. Think of that. We’re going to support the incredible men and women of law enforcement. They are incredible people.
My administration will marshal federal resources to bring this crime wave to an end, most in 45 years. We believe all Americans have the right to live in safety and peace, and we will never back down in fighting to deliver that security to every community in our land and to our inner cities that have been forsaken.
We’ll take care of our inner cities and the people in our inner cities.
On defense, we will begin a major national effort to rebuild our badly depleted military.
We have no choice. We have no choice. If you look at this world, it’s a tinderbox. We have no choice. And we want a strong military, and we don’t want to have to use it. Ideally, we don’t have to use it, although we will destroy ISIS.
At the same time, we will pursue a new foreign policy that finally learns from the mistakes of the past. We will stop looking to topple regimes and overthrow governments, folks. Remember, $6 trillion — $6 trillion in the Middle East. $6 trillion.
Our goal is stability, not chaos, because we want to rebuild our country, it’s time — it’s time.
We will partner with any nation that is willing to join us in the effort to defeat ISIS and radical Islamic terrorism.
OK. We have to say the term. We have to say the term.
In our dealings with other countries, we will seek shared interests wherever possible and pursue a new era of peace, understanding and goodwill.
On immigration, we will restore the sovereignty of the United States. We will restore the sovereignty.
We will finally end illegal immigration, have to.
We will construct a great wall at the border…
… dismantle the criminal cartel and liberate our communities from the epidemic of gang violence and drugs pouring into our nation.
(APPLAUSE) We will ask Congress to reform our visa and immigration programs to protect jobs and wages for American workers. I love American workers. I love these people.
Do you know what I call the American workers? The forgotten men and women of our nation, and those men and women came out to vote. Nobody ever thought that was going to happen.
They came out by the millions. These are great, great people.
To keep our nation secure from terrorism and extremism, we will suspend immigration from regions where it cannot be safely processed. We have regions of the world. people are pouring in. I don’t have to say who’s letting them anymore. I just have to say they’re pouring into our country.
We don’t need San Bernardino. We don’t need another Orlando. We don’t need another World Trade Center. We don’t need Paris. You look at Paris. You look at Nice. You look all over the world. Look what’s happening to Germany. We don’t need that, folks. We have enough problems, believe me.
Your state has just experienced a violent atrocity at the great Ohio State University. And that is a great place. That further demonstrates the security threats they created, and these are just threats that are stupidly created by our very, very stupid politicians’ refugee programs.
We offer our thoughts, prayers and deepest sympathies to the victims. And our hearts go out to the entire community of Ohio State. What a great place.
Great place. We’re with you, and we will stand with you every single step of the way.
We will do everything in our power to keep the scourge of terrorism out of our country. We’re going to keep it out of our country.
Just so you understand, people are pouring in from regions of the Middle East. We have no idea who they are, where they come from, what they are thinking, and we’re going to stop that dead cold flack (ph).
Can you just take a look at what just happened in your state? Just take a good look and really think about it.
Ethics reform will be a crucial part of our 100-day plan as well. We’re going to drain the swamp of corruption in Washington.
Drain the swamp.
(Audience) Drain the swamp! Drain the swamp! Drain the swamp!
Thank you.
I will impose a five-year ban on executive branch officials becoming lobbyists and a lifetime ban on officials becoming lobbyists for foreign government.
Change is not going to be easy. I am going to need you unified as hard for these proposals as you fought for this great campaign of ours. We are going to need our government and this movement to be more engaged and more vigilant than ever before to help us accomplish the reforms and overcome decades of stalemate and gridlock. We’re gonna get it done, folks.
Now that you put me in this position, even if you don’t help me one bit, I’m going to get it done, believe me. Don’t worry about that.
It’d be easier if you help, but that’s all right. Don’t worry, I’ll get it done.
Importantly, we are all going to have open arms and we’re going to invite everyone from all political persuasions to join our movement to help us achieve our goals for this country — great schools, safe neighborhoods, a thriving economy and a government that answers only to the people — our people.
We are going to have to dig deep. And I know you, and I and all of the people working with us are up to the test. There are a lot of people working with us.
Every single day, you will be the agents of change, change for our country, but good change, great change. Americans must ignore the pessimists and embrace the optimism that has always been the central ingredient of the American character.
We are the nation that won two world wars, that dug out the Panama Canal, that put a man on the moon and satellites all over space…
(APPLAUSE) … but somewhere along the way we started thinking small. I am asking you to dream big again, and bold and daring things for your country will happen once again. I am asking you to join me in this next chapter of this unbelievable and unprecedented movement as we work toward prosperity at home, peace abroad, and new frontiers in science, technology and space.
I am asking you — is that right? Yeah. I am asking — I am — at this — I love this guy. He is a believer.
You are a believer, right?
He’s a believer. I am asking you to believe in America once again. We have many challenges, but this is truly an exciting time to be alive. There’s been no time like it. The script is not yet written. We do not know what the next page will read. But I’ll tell you it’s going to be a great page. But for the first time, in a long time, what we do know is that the pages will be authored by each one of you.
Each one of you.
Americans will be the captains of their own destiny once again. You know, I talk about our great movement, and you are the movement. I’m the messenger. I’m just really the messenger, although I’ve been a very good messenger. Let’s face it, right? I’ve been a pretty good messenger.
So, once again, I want to thank Ohio. I want to thank the great people of Ohio. It’s an incredible place, an incredible state. There’s been nothing like it.
And remember this, it was when they called the landslide that we had in Ohio that these extremely dishonest people started saying, something is happening very big tonight. Something is happening very big.
And I have been saying it to you for many months, but I’ll say it one last time tonight. We are going to come together and make America great again.
Thank you very much. Thank you, Ohio. Thank you.
blizzard: “I have a friend from Central America whose grandfather is nostalgic for the fascist governments of the 30s and 40s. They would release criminals and then shoot them in the back. When your country is run by outlaws and you run the risk of being murdered every day, right-wing death squads would be an improvement.”
Now you know why the Philippines and so many countries in Central America are a mess. In the past, these countries were run by right-wing dictators with death squads. Under the leadership of such governments, these countries remained desperately poor and violent. Instead of lifting people out of poverty and reducing violence, these right-wing dictatorships increased poverty and increased the level of violence in their countries. Today, these countries have overpopulation and environmental problems that didn’t exist to the same extent during the 1930s and 1940s, so there is no possibility of returning to the past any time soon without committing mass genocide.
As for Duterte, he hasn’t been in power for very long. But even within this short period of time, he has racked up an impressive list of human rights violations. Amnesty International has described the first 100 days of Duterte’s presidency as ‘rampant carnage.’ The Philippines has a long history of human rights abuses, and so Duterte’s administration can be viewed as a continuation of that dubious tradition. Go ahead and read Amnesty International’s reports about Duterte and the Philippines, they are not flattering. Many elderly Russians long for another Josef Stalin too, even though he killed millions of his own people by direct and indirect means.
@ ultra December 7, 2016
Gee I’m sorry your comprehension of the English language is as massively and profoundly inferior as your grasp of how to garner political support amongst those who should be your natural political supporters.
Che Passa did his usual schtick of “I’m going to make statements and not adduce even one shred of evidence in support” and when challenged by me to support the following statements:
1. Hundreds have already been assaulted or otherwise harmed
2. If he’s allowed to proceed, those at risk of direct harm — whether scapegoats or not — will include most Americans and many around the world.
3. This is a man who praises Philippine death squads, after all.
4. We already have uniformed killers roaming the country and killing at random.
5. There’s little or nothing to prevent organizing and systematizing what already exists into fully functional death squads
Could or would not do so.
People like me have been warning for literally decades at the erosion of the protections against tyranny in the USA. Habeas Corpus is now effectively a dead letter in American jurisprudence a situation actively connived at by the American “left” and gobshites who supported this erosion such as the overwhelming majority of commenters here can’t see what the problem is. The hypocrisy and short-sightedness is revolting. The good thing about the way in which you and the people here behave is that it ensures your political impotence for at least another generation. It’s a pity about the people whose livelihoods and rights are actively being trampled on though.
(And no HVD if you’re reading this I have neither forgotten nor forgiven how you tried to whore out Federalist Society talking points to me of all people)
You should go away and read the story about the little boy who cried “wolf” and as you’re plainly as comprehension impaired as you are arrogant I’ll help you by pointing out that the point of the story is that there really was a wolf.
@ Tom W Harris December 5, 2016
Your problem apart from the fact that you’re a sad-assed little dweeb who is still obviously seething about the fact that several months ago I pointed out how utterly ineffective you were is that I do know what I’m talking about. And your utter inability to respond in any way other than by insults and ad hominems is proof that you panic when faced with reality.
By all means continue to publicly wank yourself into a stupor but do please be aware that while you do so your political enemies are consolidating their grip on power.
Ian please use some other WordPress template – the 100 comments limit on this one is pathethic
@ XFR December 7, 2016
Fatuity, self-centredness, emotional blackmail, and thinly concealed hysteria is all that these people have got. Granted that particular commenter is an extreme case of it but that’s a case of Argumentum Ad Absurdam being carried to (don’t laugh) its logical conclusion.
@Lisa,
“But you know the real reason for that, because deep in their hearts they love the idea of all the ‘uppity wimmin especially those hairy lesbian feminists, niggahs, spicks, pooftahs and trannies’ being put in their place…”
Yes. Actually, it’s not even deep in their hearts. It’s right out in the open. Especially now that their other excuses (e.g. OMG the white working class! OMG economic aniexty!, etc.) are falling by the wayside. After screaming for God knows how many years about “Da Man” and “Da System, Man” and despite all the tough talk, they roll over for Trump like puppies begging for tummy rubs.
Someone get a mop. Mark’s jagging off in public again.
Yes Mark I am reading this and no Mark I have never done Federalist Society talking points. You and I had a bit of a kerfuffle about jury nullification which I argued was a fact regardless of the aspirational goal of having a jury follow the law as instructed by the judge. This came up in the context of the Guardian blocking online comments about the case of the guy who beheaded a British soldier I believe, supposedly to protect the jury pool from potentially influencing information. I argued that jury nullification was probably less of an evil than the possibility of barring comments like Ian’s that restored some balance in the consideration of the defendant while leaving the government as the only source of news and/or information about the case. That is anything but a Federalist viewpoint. You’re the one demanding citations – well show me where I have been a mouthpiece for Federalist talking points.
Otherwise I have generally agreed with you.
@ Tom W.
Re: Himself the wanker
+1
(And here I though Peter [with or without the *] was a self-parody.)
@ Lisa
Jeez, can we at least be clear about ONE THING?
To repeat, to me all religion is rank superstition, so it follows that anyone who places faith in superstition over reason is at least partly crazy, and from there it follows that their feelings and opinions can never be considered persuasive to me.
I hope you can take some comfort that we at least agree on this. And spare me any future diatribes about the evils of various religions. It’s almost like you are making a spirited argument as to why I should use toilet paper.
Separately, now that I know you are in Australia, how does your constant fear of anti-LGBTQ people stack up against your fear of salt water crocodiles and common brown snakes? 🙂
In the morning edition of “Draining The Swamp”, noted outsider and champion of the workin’ man billionaire Linda McMahon has been appointed to head the Small Business Administration. You might not know her from her two failed Senate runs in Connecticut but, you probably do know her and her husband Vince MaMahon as they own and run the the professional wrestling and entertainment giant WWE (i.e. Hulk Hogan, The Rock, John Cena, etc.) though that might be too low brow for the crowd here.
In a shocking coincidence, Trump was a big donor and supporter to her campaigns and she is the biggest donor to Trump’s bogus charity. Play to Pay baby. Well at least she’s getting her money’s worth.
Meanwhile, the easily triggered POETUS Snowflake himself was lashing out on Twitter against the Carrier union boss who called bs on the Carrier deal. In typical fashion, Trump’s minions followed up with death threats against the guy and his family. The best quote I saw about it said this: “Populism 2016 is a billionaire who lives in a gold plated apartment attacking a guy who works in a factory”
Mark: insert “comment-page-1/” before the “#” in the URL to get a functional backlink. And please remember what I said about letting nitwits get you angry.
Ché: Yes, you are officially a nitwit in my book until you provide Mark with credible citations for your assertions. Put up or shut up.
ks: Repeatedly and incessantly posting things with no discernible connection to the OP or any previous comment is called spamming. Please stop.
@XFR,
I see it’s time for a diversion. Posting about Trump’s actual appointments and what he is actually doing/saying in a thread about a Trump speech in which he claims he will do certain things is not “spamming” at all. It’s certainly more on point than the interminable intellectual preening folks like you have been engaging in. GTFO with that BS.
@ks
Chuck Jones hasn’t worked in a factory for thirty years, if he ever did, he is a union boss who enjoys much better benefits than any factory worker. He’s probably a good Clintonite who can’t help himself from striking out at Santa for bringing good cheer for the workers but nothing but coal for his poor performance.
Your reading comprehension seems a bit retarded, which is no surprise. Jones said he got a couple of mildly threatening calls and then said he was used to getting actual death threats which probably come from his own steelworkers just as these mild allusions probably did.
If you knew anything about unions, or anything else, you might understand that many union workers despise their union management class who seem more aligned with corporate and political interests than with workers.
@Peter,
As Trump would say – “Sad”. That was a very bad attempt at spin though better than your previous attempt to downplay the Neo-Nazis. At least you got you daily dose of Clintonite! in so that’s something.
@ Peter
Well, take comfort in the fact that your comment and the response thereto provides the clearest possible illustration of ks’ limitations in the shortest possible time.
Even the clearest and most indisputable facts instantly dissolve in the mist of his ranting. Never expect a different result, as we all know what that would signify lol.
Yeah, calling the union boss a Clintonite, downplaying and lying about the threats made to him, and speculating that the rank and file despise him are “clear and indisputable facts”. In reality, it’s just blowing smoke to cover up the fact that he called the deal what it was and got Twitter attacked by Trump and his followers.
Speaking of clear and indisputable facts, have you two found any evidence of those millions of illegally cast votes? Clinton is approaching +3 million in the popular vote so you two better get a move on. You all have a lot of work to do…
Oh btw, I know this is a thread about a Trump speech saying he’s going to do certain things so therefore we shouldn’t talk (spam?) about what he actually says and does but if I may, please see the afternoon version of “Draining The Swamp”.
It looks like fast food magnate Andrew Puzder will be the pick for Labor Secretary. He’s against raising the minimum wage, expanding eligibility for overtime pay and is a big advocate of robots replacing human labor.
Thanks, now you can carry on with your more relevant musings…
@RC
This is getting downright hilarious with a slightly retarded snowflake defending a mob like union boss against Trump’s Vulgarians, who are probably steelworkers. We’ll soon see a Soros funded support rally in front of union headquarters with the snowflakes proudly displaying their safety pins promising to succor the endangered union boss in their safe-place.
The union boss will be very embarrassed by this and have the sprinklers turned on the idiot snowflakes. It’s better for him to appear like a thug than a pussy.
If these vote numbers are accurate the Clintonites must have started using dead voters again now that they are moving beyond just the illegal voter numbers we were informed about.
Peter, shrill hysteria suits you but it’s not an effective distraction though it’s all you can do.
So, thanks for some more of those “clear and indisputable” facts. Now, the union boss is “mob like”, the death threats were merely vulgarians who were probably steelworkers, Soros again because well Soros is always involved in everything, dead voters have now joined the imaginary millions of illegal voters who all voted for Clinton and so on.
You do a good job of blowing your Daddy Trump’s smoke. Unfortunately, it’s not going to end well.
realitychecker: “To repeat, to me all religion is rank superstition, so it follows that anyone who places faith in superstition over reason is at least partly crazy, and from there it follows that their feelings and opinions can never be considered persuasive to me.”
Same here, but unlike yourself I see and note their incredible political power that they have. You can ignore them all you want, but whether or not you like it they affect your life and if you are a woman or LGBTI they are extreme enemies, as they are dedicated to destroying our lives.
When you have women in the US actually dying because a Catholic hospital (1 in 6 of US hospitals) denies a life saving abortion due to something like fetal death, then you see people that will kill others for their ideology.
Then you have something like this:
“Rightwing pundit calls on Trump’s health secretary to end HIV/AIDS programs”
“Harvey, founder of the anti-LGBTQ Christian right organization … Mission: America, has penned an article for WorldNetDaily in which she calls on Donald Trump‘s pick for health secretary to make some serious changes to the CDC‘s HIV/AIDS messaging.
Namely, she wants Tom Price to tell the world that gay people don’t really exist.”
“Price, meanwhile, has a zero rating from the Human Rights Campaign for consistently voting against LGBTQ rights.”
“In case you were previously unaware of Harvey and her organization, here are some of her other outlandish claims:
-The Day of Silence is Satanic
-LGBTQ children are possessed by demons
-Acceptance of homosexuality will lead to acceptance of pedophilia and incest”
“Price, meanwhile, has a zero rating from the Human Rights Campaign for consistently voting against LGBTQ rights.”
As I said the Faustian bargain the GOP made, accommodating and encouraging these people and giving them power, as they always support right wing economic, class and foreign affairs issues. They’d throw them a bone over social ones to get that support but the religious right want the whole carcass and now they are, if not dominant, far more powerful than they ever have been politically thanks to Trump.
If you haven’t been following them and their toxic influence on US (and other places) politics then I think you have been a bit naive and should do some reading up, because they are going to be controlling US politics in many areas.
Meanwhile the slow collapse (mirroring the USSR in slow motion) continues apace, as another important bench mark is breached:
“Life Expectancy In U.S. Drops For First Time In Decades, Report Finds”
http://www.npr.org/sections/health-shots/2016/12/08/504667607/life-expectancy-in-u-s-drops-for-first-time-in-decades-report-finds
“The overall U.S. death rate has increased for the first time in a decade, according to an analysis of the latest data. And that led to a drop in overall life expectancy for the first time since 1993, particularly among people younger than 65.”
“Still, he believes the data from 2015 are worth paying attention to. Over that year, the overall death rate increased from 724.6 per 100,000 people to 733.1 per 100,000.
While that’s not a lot, it was enough to cause the overall life expectancy to fall slightly. That’s only happened a few times in the past 50 years. The dip in 1993, for example, was due to high death rates from AIDS, flu, homicide and accidental deaths that year.
On average, the overall life expectancy, for someone born in 2015, fell from 78.9 years to 78.8 years. The life expectancy for the average American man fell two-tenths of a year — from 76.5 to 76.3. For women, it dropped one-tenth — from 81.3 to 81.2 years.”
Then there is the social messaging that has been given by Trump and all these racists, misogynists and homo/trans phobes are coming out of the closet feeling all empowered:
http://nymag.com/thecut/2016/11/90-percent-of-teachers-say-trumps-win-is-bad-for-students.html
“90 Percent of Teachers Say Trump’s Win Has Had a Negative Effect in Classrooms”
“The day after Donald Trump was elected, incidents of racist and misogynistic harassment were reported across the country. Since then the trend has continued, and at least one expert has said the trend is more widespread now than in the weeks following 9/11. And a new survey conducted by the Southern Poverty Law Center shows the problem is just as pervasive in schools.
More than 10,000 teachers, counselors, and administrators from K–12 schools across the country were surveyed, and 90 percent say their school’s climate has been negatively impacted by Trump’s election. Eighty percent describe “heightened anxiety and concern” from vulnerable students about their futures, and 40 percent say they’ve heard derogatory language directed at students of color, Muslims, immigrants, and people based on gender or sexual orientation.”
One teacher is quoted that sums it up:
“In the week since the election, I have personally had to deal with the following issues: 1) Boys inappropriately grabbing and touching girls, even after they said no (this never happened until after the election); 2) White students telling their friends who are Hispanic or of color that their parents are going to be deported and that they would be thrown out of school; 3) White students going up to students of color who are total strangers and hurling racial remarks at them, such as, ‘Trump is going [to] throw you back over the wall, you know?’ or ‘We can’t wait until you and the other brownies are gone’; 4) The use of the n-word by white students in my class and in the hallway. ”
——–
So you see markfromireland .. I’m not being ‘deranged’, this is actually happening and I can fairly confidently predict that it is going to get worse as the extremely right wing (and religious) Trump Govt pushes those racist/etc buttons more and more to distract from their economic and other coming failures.
To quote President Johnston:
LBJ was once asked why poor and middle class Republicans vote against their own interest, this was his response.
“If you can convince the lowest white man that he’s better that the best coloured man, he won’t know you are picking his pocket. Hell, give him someone to look down on and he’ll empty his pockets for you”.
@ Lisa
Of course I know all about the Republican Party and its shortcomings.
Which is why I felt so strongly that the Democratic Party should stop acting like it did not give a shit about regular workings folks 30–40 years ago.
Now there will be a price to pay for those who staked their lives on the Democratic Party anyway. Sorry if you get caught up in that, but I’ve already paid my price during the Clinton/Obama eras. Maybe you should have had more concern for “my lot” before it looked like “your lot” might be in for a shitstorm of your own?
@ Peter, @ ks
Anyone who doesn’t get that union leaders in general sold their constituents out long ago, or that this Carrier guy in particular failed to save ANY jobs, is only fit to take over the spittoon-emptying job if/after Ron accepts Ian’s invitation to leave.
You can’t fix ideological stupidity.
realitychecker: “Maybe you should have had more concern for “my lot” before it looked like “your lot” might be in for a shitstorm of your own?”
Your lot? What are they? The white/heterosexual/working class men that got conned and dudded…no matter how they were warned by others? Those ones that refused to join coalitions with others to fight for rights and better economic decisions… The ones that wouldn’t (and this is such a no brainer) join with black, Hispanic (etc) working class people to create a ‘grand coalition’ of the working class.
Meanwhile those others, in far worse places (in every level, legal rights, money and so on) went onto fight their own fights because they couldn’t get those WWCMs to join up. In Houston (the HERO referendum) trans activists tried to get others to work with them to fight for it and got nowhere (and there is a sad and sorry tale all in itself).
Sure there are a lot of WWCMs that are activists, that fight for unions and all the rest…but they are so often let down by their own side, many who get conned endlessly by the right (especially the religious right).
Look we LGBTI people are good at coalitions and working with others, because we cover the whole spectrum, there are LGBTI people of every class, colour and creed. We are disproportionally, because of prejudice, in the lower economic classes. We have a vested interest in better and cheaper healthcare, higher minimum wages, better social security and all the rest. So we fight alongside many others as it is not ‘your lot and ‘my lot’ it is ‘all of us lot”. I know some trans activists who are at the pipeline fight right now, I know others who escort women through the Planned Parenthood protesters. Sure it is mutual back scratching as well as common interests, as all coalitions are, but that is how they work.
But the political idiocy of far too many of that WWCM group, the ease that they get conned by identity politics (you are white and male so you are superior sort of thing) is pathetic and has led to them being so easily economically hammered.
“It’s a tale of two countries. For the 117 million U.S. adults in the bottom half of the income distribution, growth has been non-existent for a generation while at the top of the ladder it has been extraordinarily strong. And this stagnation of national income accruing at the bottom is not due to population aging. Quite the contrary: For the bottom half of the working-age population (adults below 65), income has actually fallen. ”
http://equitablegrowth.org/research-analysis/economic-growth-in-the-united-states-a-tale-of-two-countries/
So your comment is a classic example of all that is wrong with them. We and so many others (of all colours and creeds) were there fighting and trying to get the WWCMs to join up, but that ‘I’m not going to work alongside with wimmin, niggahs, spicks, pooftahs and trannies’ thing keeps getting the way. And until that changes and they wake up politically, realise that they have many common interests with many other groups, they will continue to have their pockets picked by the wealthy and being ‘useful idiots’ for the right wing.
@XFR
Ordinarily I wouldn’t respond to your name calling or anyone else’s. It’s childish and stupid. But in this case, I’ll try something and see if it gives you a clue.
First, I won’t post links because they trigger Ian’s moderation bots, and I don’t want to add any more to his workload. He’s been churning out detailed posts at a remarkable pace, and I’d rather he do that than try to wrangle yet more comments with links in them.
Second, I’m almost certain that Mark knows what the kinds of incidents I’m referring to, but when he’s in attack mode, he doesn’t care about “evidence,” he cares about attacking his targets. The sad thing is he’s attacking the wrong targets. Any one can fall into that trap. I did it just yesterday when I lit into a good friend for not seeing the existential threat he and so many others are facing. He’s not my enemy, but I sure let him have it.
Lisa is not Mark’s enemy. I’m not his enemy. Ultra isn’t his enemy. Etc. I have often agreed with him and shared his rage at a ruling clique that consistently fails to do the right thing, indeed which seems intent on committing one atrocity after another in defiance of good judgment and moral probity. In my view the advent of Trump and his cronies and loyalists in the White House is going to make those failures orders of magnitude worse.
Those who can express their loyalty and obedience sufficiently strongly may do fine. Then again, they shouldn’t count on it. They shouldn’t count on anything.
As for incidents he’s been banging on about:
1. Hundreds have already been assaulted or otherwise harmed
The Southern Poverty Law Center has been keeping an extensive list, as have others (Google is your friend) but there was an incident in Albuquerque the other day that is illustrative. A female customer at a supermarket a couple of blocks from the University and just down the street from the Peace and Justice Center, was assaulted by an Anglo woman who may or may not have been a customer. The first woman was wearing a hijab. The Anglo woman yelled and cursed at her and tried to pull her hijab off and told her to go back wherever it was she came from, yadda yadda. Other customers and staff intervened. They protected the first woman from the continued verbal assaults and threats from the Anglo woman. They tried to calm the situation, but of course it didn’t work. When people get into that state, it’s almost impossible to calm them down. The woman who was assaulted for wearing a hijab got away safely, so at least there was that. She came back to the store later to thank the staff. This sort of thing and worse is extensively documented and Mark knows how to find the records.
2. If he’s allowed to proceed, those at risk of direct harm — whether scapegoats or not — will include most Americans and many around the world.
I am passionately opposed to scapegoating, and I will intervene to shame the scapegoater and protect the scapegoat from harm in any way I can. The incident at the supermarket was a form of scapegoating. That sort of thing happens, in my view, because of campaign rhetoric to target and blame various victims — such as Muslims, Mexicans, “illegals,” “thugs,” dissenters and protesters, and so on for what ails the Caucasian Id. That blame-casting and targeting rhetoric gave permission to those who wished to do harm to their “enemies” to do it. And so it has been happening. Ultimately, since a majority of those who voted voted for someone other than Trump, all of them, and even those who didn’t vote are potential targets. Don’t think it couldn’t happen here. The US has been down this road before. And it is all too easy to extend the targets beyond our borders.
3. This is a man who praises Philippine death squads, after all.
I would take Duterte’s word for it over Trump’s any day. Duterte isn’t trying to con Americans, he doesn’t seem to care what Americans think. He is, however, operating state sanctioned death squads and encouraging vigilante “justice”. And he’s said that Trump was fine with it, or at least he “understood.” Great. It’s a gross human rights violation but what the hay, a president has to do what a president has to do.
4. We already have uniformed killers roaming the country and killing at random.
Over 4,000 people have been killed by police in the US since mid-2013 when more or less comprehensive record keeping began — by volunteers, btw, since there was no government record keeping and it wasn’t of any particular media interest except in local markets where the killings could be sensationalized for ratings. About half of those killed posed no threat or such a minor threat that their summary execution was irrational and unwarranted. Hundreds of millions of dollars have been paid out on behalf of victims. The killing is also pretty random even though some populations are more vulnerable than others. Mentally ill, homeless, black and brown young men are all particularly vulnerable, but no one is entirely safe from violent policing, and no one can know when they’ll be the next target.
5. There’s little or nothing to prevent organizing and systematizing what already exists into fully functional death squads.
I’ve been an activist against violent policing for decades, and contra Mark’s belief, my activism has had some success, most recently in Albuquerque where my focus and goal was to significantly reduce or stop killings by the Albuquerque Police Department. Other activists focused on other goals and other aspects of the problem of violent policing. I’d say we did pretty well. Killings by APD have been reduced from about one a month (sometimes more) to three this year so far. The designated kill squad (Repeat Offenders Project) was disbanded. The police department still has snipers and a SWAT unit, but they are under much stricter controls and supervision. Crisis intervention and mental health care workers are assigned to defuse and resolve situations without violence, and most police officers are able to use deescalation techniques rather than violence. This is a major change in the behavior of Albuquerque police officers toward the public. It wouldn’t have happened if so many people hadn’t come together to say “enough; this ends now.” And it probably wouldn’t have happened if the DoJ hadn’t stepped in with a consent decree and court monitoring, both demanded by activists against violent policing.
But there is no permanent success in these matters. The way it used to be in Albuquerque could be restored at any time, and the killing could easily ramp up again. Duterte’s model may be unacceptable, but similar models are not unknown in this country.
The political situation in the US is highly unstable. Plenty of interests are prepared to take advantage of the situation and exploit crises for their own benefit. It’s an intrinsically dangerous situation for vulnerable and targeted populations, and it could spiral out of control at any time. I don’t favor stability for its own sake, partly because vulnerable populations aren’t necessarily protected under the status quo. But in this case, the dangers to the vulnerable are magnified by the instability.
Ché Pasa : Well said…and I suddenly just realised what the issue is with some people here, they don’t understand how politics really works, activism and political lobbying.
People that are in this realise that the REAL politics start when the votes are counted. A political party will follow its own interests and those of its major financial backers. The wealthy, the corporations have a massively disproportionately greater political clout and if you are a group you have to fight your way through that and if your interests clash with them (eg higher wages) you have a fight on your hands and you are going to have to get organised and become politically astute to win.
You look at groups (and the Black Dem caucus is a classic on that) that are assimilated and passive within the political structure and they get nothing…. because that’s how politics works.
And the white, heterosexual, working class males have done little to fight for their own interests and go through all the hard work of activism, finding others with common interests (and doing quid pro quos), working in coalitions and all the rest. If you don’t do that you will get screwed.
In other words, sometime you have to have grand coalitions along common interests, but you have to acknowledge and work with other groups personal interests as they will do for you (quid pro quo), to gain that greater support and hence greater political clout.
And if you are in the lower 50% then you will always have a fight with the wealthy, because they want your money. A rich white heterosexual male will kill a lower class one tomorrow if they can get a buck from it and they have zero common interests whatsoever in any way. In fact a WWCM has a far greater set of common interests with a lesbian, black, single ,working class woman across a very wide range in areas. And if you are smart politically you ally yourself with all sorts like that to fight together for those common interests and back scratch each other on those that differ.
That’s how it works…
When it comes to elections, the real issue is how receptive a party is to that lobbying and how successful you might be. If you take the GOP the odds are you will not get very far if you are poor (etc), you can get (with a lot of hard work) further with the Dems (usually).
The reason I jumped up and down, very early on if people here remember, about Trump jumping into bed with the religious right was because I knew they were (a) dedicated to the elimination of LGBTI people (b) very right wing economically (c) unstable, at best, on foreign affairs (d) passionately against Govt spending, especially on the poor. and (e) virulently against women’s reproductive (and other) rights.
So they were a poor chance of doing anything positive in society in any way and all political work would have to be concentrated on just holding on to what had been gained, with no chance of moving forward.
As bad as Clinton was (and was horrible) the odds were a bit better with her of getting some gains. As I will admit the pre religious right Trump might have been, and in fact if he had stayed where he was during the candidacy fight (economically progressive and socially centre) I’d have been advocating for him.
But it was game over when he signed up with the religious right and became an alternative Ted Cruz.
@ Lisa
“My lot” is those who give a fuck about the rule of law and accountability and civil liberties and no lying and refusing to live with major unresolved contradictions and those who promote them.
We have already lost what matters most to us, while “your lot” have made steady gains and become increasingly demanding, arrogant, and hostile to those who were not favorite pets of the corrupt corporate Democratic Party.
Now we’ve all been dragged into fascism. But we were there before Trump, and your lot only cared about your selfish interests. So, your fears now may be somewhat justified, but your lot has certainly earned them with your blind adherence to the neoliberal Democratic Party.
@CP
I hope you didn’t strain your arm too badly patting yourself on the back for taming the wild Albuquerque PD. I guess you haven’t been around the Dog City long enough to know the PD history here or how their tendency to shoot people has come in cycles for the last three decades, at least. One of these periods got Albuquerque declared assisted suicide capitol, by police, of the nation.
The do-gooders and activists respond to these cycles and along with their rubes confront the Chief and city fathers with their demands for restraint and reform which just pisses off the cops. Then the magic consent decree from the feds is levied and everyone, but the cops, nods and celebrates a great victory. The crisis passes and things are calmer for a while until a cop is killed while waiting for a crisis intervention team and they revert to their core training on how to handle criminals and crazies.
realitychecker “My lot” …. We have already lost what matters most to us.
You have lost economically, with job and income losses. So has everyone else that is not the top 10%. Since Blacks, women, LGBTI, etc people tend to have a far higher percentage in the lower income groups they have lost that too. And they nearly always start at a lower base level in the first place.
Women have lower incomes for the same jobs, LGBTI people find it far harder to get jobs in the first place and have far higher unemployment levels (as well as homelessness).
So we have gained a bit in reducing legal and social discrimination …in what way does that affect ‘your lot’ negatively? Tell me, I’d love to know how (say) better transgender rights have taken money out of your pocket or made you unemployed? Has marriage equality made you poorer somehow?
That’s such a classic symptom of how ‘your lot’ has been dudded and conned, in that you think that anything ‘our lot’ gains somehow negatively impacts you in any material way. Sod your blasted ‘psychological wage’ of feeling all so superior and go and concentrate on money, instead of letting your pockets be picked all the time by the wealthy.
AND, because this probably is a case where the mule probably does require the brick alongside its head, you need to understand that your neat little short-sighted mathematical electoral strategy to cobble together a bare minimum majority that pandered to women, blacks, gays, Latinos, and Muslims, while leaving out everyone else, including my own admittedly tiny minority group (as defined above), has now blown up in your face.
So, of course, you are now butt-hurt and scared, but your lot has only itself to blame, because anybody with even a modicum of understanding of human nature should have known all along where this would all end up.
It turns out that concept and principle really do matter. Hard lesson.
“So, of course, you are now butt-hurt and scared, but your lot has only itself to blame …”
Oh sigh…. didn’t you read what I wrote about how politics actually works?
No one ‘pandered’ to those groups, they fought hard for everything tiny little thing they gained and have to keep fighting all the time to just maintain it. The only reason they got anywhere is because they got off their arses to fight for things.
And let us not forget along the way, because it was in their interest too, they fought for workers and wages and benefits, something ‘your lot’ seem to have forgotten how to do.
Now your minority group is going to be conned and screwed over again. Oh they will pander to your racism, sexism, homophobia and all the rest and ‘your lot’ will feel all self important for awhile, feeling free to run around assaulting women, beating up old gay men…what fun. Guess what, you are going to continue to lose wages, jobs and benefits just as you always have done, because to be blunt you are mugs and the elites play you like a fiddle.
Look it is going to be tough, but unlike ‘your group’ they are organised and will fight tooth and nail, they will (so unlike ‘your group’) ally together and fight in common cause. And let us not forget, together they are the significant majority…..
In the end any major economic direction changes is going to come from them, they have been doing all the fighting so far.
As I asked, how much money have you lost from your pocket because of (say) marriage equality?
Not a cent, not one. Yet ‘your lot’ let yourself get manipulated into getting all hot and bothered about it. As I said ..mugs. Lenin would call them ‘useful idiots’.
Form unions, make them bigger and more powerful by being inclusive and including women, other races and so on (instead of, as so many do, excluding them). Use that clout to fight for better jobs, wages and economic and social policies. Hard work sure, but it would succeed. And that is just one option.
@ Lisa
You are so fucking stupid and off the mark that it would take a thousand pages for me to straighten you out, and you ain’t worth it.
I TOLD you how I self-identify, but instead of reading what I wrote and taking it in, you respond with a thousand words about WWCMs. Moron. I belong to a tinier minority group than you do. But my group doesn’t even make it into your tiny little thought-box.
And, my comments were typed back to back, without yours intervening as I typed, so you might want to consider that. (That’s forgivable, as we have no time stamps to guide us.)
But what’s really NOT FORGIVABLE is that you seem to have forgotten that it was YOU who started this “your lot, my lot” bullshit a few days ago, and I gave you a sound rhetorical ass-kicking for it. Do I have to go and get that and reproduce it here?
At that time, your position was that my “lot” (again, mistakenly ASSUMING you knew what box to put me in) caused all the problems in the world, so your lot could just give my lot a big fuck you while we struggle to try and address overall community interests, while your lot concentrated solely on your specific selfish interests. Contrast that with what you wrote here today, about all of us working together, and then kindly go fuck yourself with a telephone pole that has lots of splinters.
MarkfromIreland: “Gee I’m sorry your comprehension of the English language is as massively and profoundly inferior as your grasp of how to garner political support amongst those who should be your natural political supporters.”
I assume you mean ‘among’ rather than the archaic ‘amongst.’ But now that I think about, perhaps it’s appropriate, because your cognitive processes are archaic too.
My only concern here is the truth. I could care less about these so-called political supporters and their feelings.
MarkfromIreland: “People like me have been warning for literally decades at the erosion of the protections against tyranny in the USA. Habeas Corpus is now effectively a dead letter in American jurisprudence a situation actively connived at by the American “left.”
So you have been sitting on your butt and ‘warning’ about the erosion of protections against tyranny. You’re such an internet warrior!
You have little understanding how the left operates, or even what is meant by the ‘left.’ You’re probably dumb enough to believe that Clinton and Obama represent the left (they do not). I am a member of the ACLU, an organization that has been very active in fighting against the erosion of such protections by filing lawsuits in the courts. They sometimes win and they sometimes lose. I don’t need to hear any lectures from an ignoramus like yourself. People who think like you are part of the problem.
realitychecker : Oh my the invective…. touched a nerve there.
Ummm, you did read that I stated the need for ‘grand coalitions’ did you? Everyone working together on their core common interests (such as wages and jobs) and supporting each other with their specific ones?
“we struggle to try and address overall community interests,” so do we LGBTI people. But we have pressing and, especially in the case of those with (or at risk of) AIDs, transgender and intersex people, life saving needs (eg access to medical treatments, ending discrimination in many areas, etc).
If you are a gay man PReP is essential to avoid getting AIDs, as are cheap AIDs drugs (if you have AIDs), that is literally a life or death issue for a lot of people.
We can ..and do ..work with many groups on many issues, the quid pro quo is that we want support for our specific needs as well.
There is no need for (using an example) trans women to act at bodyguards for women accessing Planed Parenthood places, but some of us do that to support our friends and allies. We can’t do everything as there are not that many of us .. with very urgent and vitally important needs ..but we do our best across the board. You wont find many ‘progressive’ groupings where there are not (unless they are excluded) LGBTI people involved. I see other LGBTI people all over the place in many, many areas of activism, outside just LGBTI ones.
Not sure what your issue is, except that you think we should just drop what is important to us, even if it is life saving, to do what is important to you. That’s not a coalition, that’s a dictatorship. And we have learned in the past to our cost, promises ‘that we will get around to you after we have done …XYZ’ are pretty hollow because they never come around…..
Women, black people, other racial groupings and religions (etc) can all say the same.
You seem unable to accept the give and take of political coalitions and that others’ interests are pretty damn important too, that we can all work together on our common interests, while supporting each other’s specific ones, that it is not a ‘win-lose’ situation, it is ‘win-win’.
You are really close (as some have done) to blaming us (women, POC, LGBTI. etc) for Trump …heck we were the ones jumping up and down about him, especially after he signed up with the extreme right wing ‘religious right’.
Maybe have a cold hard look at yourself…why are you not working with LGBTI groups, feminists and all the rest..we have many common interests that we share.
Look give you an example, Houston and HERO. The right framed this on ‘bathroom laws’ to exclude trans women from women’s toilets, but HERO was all about many other anti-discrimination rights. Monika Roberts, a famous trans activist, tried to get others (like veterans groups) involved to fight for it and got nowhere. So HERO was destroyed and huge amounts of rights went out the window. The story of the crippled veteran that got knocked back from a bar and tried to fight that ..and found after the loss of HERO he had no rights over that…is actually true…and he admitted he voted against it…self destructive or what?
“Useful idiot’ …’mug’ … yes all of those. He actually voted against his own self interests because he didn’t like ‘trannies’. I struggle to have much sympathy, and as for trans activists well we now know we have to fight for ourselves there and get the specific things that affect us fixed…and sod the rest, that’s your fight now.
Join with us and we will fight for you as long as you fight for us.
Coalitions means you work together, even if you don’t like them personally (but you don’t have to live with them after all, just work with them), because of those common interests and you quid pro quo for specific ones for each of you.
For some hard facts:
“The phrase “American dream” was invented during the Great Depression. It comes from a popular 1931 book by the historian James Truslow Adams, who defined it as “that dream of a land in which life should be better and richer and fuller for everyone.”
In the decades that followed, the dream became a reality. Thanks to rapid, widely shared economic growth, nearly all children grew up to achieve the most basic definition of a better life — earning more money and enjoying higher living standards than their parents had.
These days, people are arguably more worried about the American dream than at any point since the Depression. But there has been no real measure of it, despite all of the data available. No one has known how many Americans are more affluent than their parents were — and how the number has changed.”
“The index is deeply alarming. It’s a portrait of an economy that disappoints a huge number of people who have heard that they live in a country where life gets better, only to experience something quite different.”
“It begins with children who were born in 1940, less than a decade after the publication of Adams’s book, “The Epic of America.” The researchers went into the project assuming that most of these children had earned more than their parents — but were surprised to learn that nearly all of them had, said David Grusky, one of the researchers, also of Stanford. About 92 percent of 1940 babies had higher pretax household earnings at age 30 than their parents had at the same age. (The results were similar at older ages and for post-tax earnings.)”
“For babies born in 1980 — today’s 36-year-olds — the index of the American dream has fallen to 50 percent: Only half of them make as much money as their parents did. In the industrial Midwestern states that effectively elected Donald Trump, the share was once higher than the national average. Now, it is a few percentage points lower.”
http://www.nytimes.com/2016/12/08/opinion/the-american-dream-quantified-at-last.html
Wow a LGBTI person hitting the facts … heck worse a (despised by everyone) trans woman… Maybe my working class Glasgow roots are showing….
realitychecker
December 8, 2016
Yep, having been a Teamster for a number of years; I came to know, for a fact, the union bosses were in bed with management. Anybody who says otherwise is ignorant, a shill, a damned liar or all of the above.
Philosophically, I’m pro union; but in reality, not. These days, they fuck over the members royally…
@ V. Arnold
About 20 years ago, Ms Ché’s workplace had a union election to disaffiliate from a totally ineffective union that essentially handed over every gain the workers had made in the past 50 or 60 years, agreed to cuts in salaries and benefits whenever management asked, went along with eliminating “unnecessary” workplace rules and so on.
They would have the choice of joining the Teamsters — who made quite a pitch — or another more or less milquetoast union that at least said they would fight to get some of the previous concessions rescinded.
Management was terrified of the Teamsters. One of their other branch’s workers were represented by Teamsters, and they were getting a much better deal in every way than Ms. Ché’s branch.
Management went full bore against affiliation with the Teamsters, and many workers were afraid of them too. When it came down to the election, the milquetoast union won by 12 or 13 votes. Management breathed a huge sigh of relief. The Teamster represented branch then got an increase in pay and benefits for their workers after fairly brief negotiations. Ms. Ché’s branch got no increase, a higher worker contribution to benefits, and a slightly less burdensome grievance procedure after long negotiations and a brief walkout. Whoo-hoo.
In bed with management? You bet. Sure. I don’t doubt the Teamsters had made their own bed with management, but they consistently got a better deal for their members. As time went on, the Teamster represented branch did much better than Ms Ché’s branch. The contrast was striking.
Management was intent on squeezing workers every which way, but they weren’t able to do it to the Teamster represented branch.
If they’d been the only worker union, though, we wouldn’t have seen the contrast, and it may have appeared that the Teamsters were almost as eager to screw the workers as management was.
@ Lisa
I think you put your finger on it. The desire for a dictator whose only demand is loyalty and obedience, combined with incessant whining that you — Lisa — are responsible for making their lives miserable. You and your lefty comrades. It’s all your fault.
You have ruined their lives, and you deserve your punishment.
When you point out that nothing is lost to them by lifting up, granting equality to or protecting others, it doesn’t register. Every gain for someone else is by definition a taking from them. It’s an unshakable ideological truism. There is no way anyone can gain without someone else — someone who is intrinsically more deserving — losing.
It’s not the way these things work in reality, but it is an unshakable belief among a certain set. They would have had an unshakable belief in the earth-centered solar system too. It was proved conclusively by Ptolemy after all. This upstart Copernicus doesn’t understand basic astronomy.
Then of course, your issues are not the “right” issues in any case. Nobody cares about your boutique issues. It’s all a shadowplay anyway. It’s a waste of everybody’s time and money, and every gain you and your lefty comrades make is simply a bone thrown by your betters to keep you quiet and tame. There is no significance in what you do. You are powerless, worthless, and ignorant.
All that now changes because A Gold Plated Great Man shall be elevated to the US Presidency and shall reverse all of the wrongs that have been done to the truly worthy by you and people like you.
He has promised.
They believe.
As he betrays them every hour of every day, openly and dismissively, they rationalize his actions to their belief. It’s a classic response to a con. Religious con artists are masters at keeping the con running while betraying believers. Political con artists can do it too. This one is using show business tactics, not very skilfully but well enough to con a significant minority. As his betrayals mount up and become undeniable, and as believers are fleeced and discarded, that is your fault, too.
You and your lefty comrades.
It’s all your fault.
Ché Pasa
December 9, 2016
@ V. Arnold
Okaaaaay, so what’s your point?
I’m relating my experience with local #206 in Portland, Oregon in 19?? (I can’t remember the date).
We, our warehouse workers, were told to shut up at a meeting regarding negotiations for the next contract. I was there; and from that day on I said fuck unions!
I’m glad to hear Mrs. Che’s union helped her; however, my bitter experience forever shaded me against unions.
And it’s interesting the UAW has been very supportive towards the foreign auto plants locating in the southern U.S. for half the wages of GM and Ford workers.
Unions are now, for the most part, worthless sycophants of the U.S. MIC.
@ Lisa the Mule
I never truly realized before this thread just how much of a mule you really are. Now I see there is no point wasting any more rhetorical bricks on you; you are impervious to anything outside of your rigid little bubble. You can’t even see your own blatant insincerity.
I’m glad you are in Australia. Please stay there. I can enjoy your suffering long-distance.
@Lisa,
As usual, well said. As you can see from all the whining, childish name calling and irrationality that followed they can’t face the actual reality so they just retreat into their usual diatribes. The usual suspects have not, are not and will not join anything. They will carp from an Olympian remove.
As Che Pasa pointed out, as Trump continues his con and further humiliates and embarrasses them it’s only going to get worse. The rationalizations have gotten incredibly absurd almost like a left wing version of Free Republic aka Freepers. They blather on about accountability, the rule of law, etc. while Trump laughs at them while occasionally pandering to them with a tweet or rally. Meanwhile, he continues to do what he does like today’s appointment of Goldman Sachs president & COO Gary Cohn to be National Economic Council Director.
I mean even Trump has moved on from the Carrier deal now that the crony capitalist scam has run his pr course but here are the champions of the WWC still carrying water for it and trying to divert attention from the meat of it by attacking the union guy who correctly called bs on it.
The alt-left folks here traded their supposed principles for vanity. Shame. At least the alt-right folks stand to make a few bucks off the deal and get some actual power but the alt-left folks are reduced to hoping a few dollars fall of Trump’s wheelbarrow (aka “he might do some good things”) as he wheels his plunder into Trump tower.
Btw, speaking of accountability, rule of law, conflicts of interest yadda, yadda, it appears that Trump is going to remain Executive Producer of his TV show “Celebrity Apprentice” and, as such, the soon to be POTUS will receive revenue from NBC who, in its own conflict, has a couple of rather large news divisions that are supposed to be covering him. Strange..the swamp seems to be overflowing rather than draining….
Oh wait maybe I should have asked XFR if it was okay to continue to talk about what Trump is actually doing in a thread that’s about what Trump says he will do. Or maybe not…
Anyway, to give credit where it’s due, I think we might reach the point sooner rather than later where we can test Trump’s notion that he could shoot somebody on 5th avenue in broad daylight and people would still support him.
@ V. Arnold
No, no. My point was that her unions didn’t serve the workers in her unit. The one that was dismissed was a complete management tool; the one that was voted in was an almost complete management tool. The Teamsters represented a different unit, and regardless of their management toolishness, they actually and consistently got a better deal for their workers. So much better for the most part that there was no comparison. Ms Ché voted to join the Teamsters, but the milquetoast union won.
I wasn’t a union member for more than a few months very late in my working life, and so I never saw any of this from the inside. Nevertheless, I don’t doubt your experience with the Teamsters; I’ve heard so many similar stories. I suppose if they’re the only worker union in the field, they can pretty much do as they want, including telling their members to shut up. But when there’s more than one (I think there were three unions and a couple of professional associations bargaining with her employer), it behooves all of them to at least nod politely to workers, and if they want to grow in membership and clout, they need to actually do something on their members’ behalf, not just say they will or blow off the workers altogether.
Certain political parties and candidates might want to take heed. Then again, maybe not.
Cheers.
[I saw part of that Genghis Khan picture you referred to. It’ll take me while to get through it, but it’s interesting –and far more authentic — than the one I saw years ago.]
The heart of the matter is that Ian and other alt-left bloggers – Yves Smith, e.g., – in wanting to preserve/lock-in their “alt” cachet took a chance in going full-on Trump – He’s not as bad as Killery!, etc. – and now they are seemingly stuck with their decision.
I mean, if they would actually post against Trump and the freaking monsters he his appointing then they would be no better than DKos would they? Or so the alt-left blogger – i.e., Ian, Yves – trying to carve out his little smarmy niche reasons. If that means betraying humanity/morality/common sense so be it. Clicks/eyeballs are where it’s at on the interwebz, man!!!
So, as we watch this and other alt-left blogs spin themselves into oblivion – no, no, really it’s because the WaPo is “blacklisting” (um, wrong word guys, again we’re on the interwebz) you all, chortle – let’s pause and pity these unfortunate souls, hoisted by their own smarmtards.
OR you could all just freaking admit you’re wrong and join the rest of humanity. But that would take psychologically separating yourselves from your new bff’s the alt-right that other stubborn group of idiots who can’t ever admit they’ve made a mistake.
@ks
This is great news as Trump jerks the chain of all the mouth-breathers who will grind themselves into the dirt chasing their own tails over this harmless promotion of a TV show. There must be some national security issues that some nitwit will seek to use to call for impeachment.
Perhaps the Donald could donate any money he gets from this to the Clinton Foundation to avoid the emoluments clause.
@ Peter,
As I said above:
“…as Trump continues his con and further humiliates and embarrasses them it’s only going to get worse. The rationalizations have gotten incredibly absurd almost like a left wing version of Free Republic aka Freepers.”
Thanks for the quick example.
@ ks
I hope you live on or hang out on Fifth Avenue, oh man of conviction.
You may get the nomination for Raver-in-Chief. The Senate would quickly confirm you.
@realitychecker,
Thanks for the further evidence.
@RC
It’s fascinating watching the true believers here and elsewhere trying to project all the personality traits, lying, betrayal, con and a dismissive nature onto Trump who hasn’t even had a chance yet to do much of anything besides keeping two large promises and not throwing anyone under the bus except maybe Chris Christy, I think even he is hanging on the side of the bus.
The Red Queen and the Kenyan Usurper have repeatedly displayed these traits and have done tremendous damage around the world as well as at home with their machinations. It seems these snowflakes are demanding that Trump copy the political parasites they have and apparently continue to worship or they will wet their pants and continue to sob and spew.
You two will definitely be the last men in the bunker.
@ Peter
Yes, one might almost be tempted to think they have a psychology degree or something lol.
I do have one, and so my amusement at their pathetically transparent antics, their total lack of self-awareness, is unlimited.
Schadenfreude never tasted so sweet. 🙂
@RC
I’m not too concerned with the safe-space, play-doh, safety-pin movements, these are just mother’s little losers in training. What I do worry about is the organized, capable and well funded forces trying to harness this fear and denial into their agendas. The snowflake malaise seems to be widespread and growing among older people that I thought were reasonably sane and even wise. Chomsky and Stein are two examples but now Ralph Nader is showing signs of instability raving about Trump’s businesses that he demands be destroyed so he can have his safe-space.
MoveOn/Soros is organizing the Play-Doh brigades for demonstrations while Stein/Soros is using the shutdown of recounts to create more anger and disillusionment and the attacks on the Electoral College members continues. Then there are the lesser heralds of the apocalypse throughout the chattering classes and internet pushing these insane memes.
The phony partisan ‘Putin stole our election’ meme is being redeployed by Obama who will probably drop a stinking pile of ‘consensus opinion’ not evidence on the White House floor just before he leaves.
Individually these various actions probably don’t mean much but organized and directed together they may mean that something else is planned but I have no idea what that could be.
@Ron,
“OR you could all just freaking admit you’re wrong and join the rest of humanity. But that would take psychologically separating yourselves from your new bff’s the alt-right that other stubborn group of idiots who can’t ever admit they’ve made a mistake.”
Now you know that’s not going to happen. It’s too pedestrian for most of the folks here. No, they are going to continue to double down on the vain “Cassandra” angle and pat each other on the back.
They are really backed into a corner as this continues to devolve right in front of them. The CIA thing is exploding today, Trump appointed ExxonMobil CEO to be SoS, John Bolton will be be Deputy SoS, Nate Silver tweeted an analysis of the impact Comey/FBI shenanigans so all they can do now is taunt us and fluff each other.
Ron Showalter “The heart of the matter is that Ian and other alt-left bloggers – Yves Smith, e.g., – in wanting to preserve/lock-in their “alt” cachet took a chance in going full-on Trump – He’s not as bad as Killery!, etc. ”
They all missed it when Trump signed up with the ‘religious right’ and how that would change everything. In the candidacy fight Trump came across as socially centre and had some good ideas economically, but was showing strong racist tendencies.
He might have been worth a try to break the Washington consensus, and in fact I predicted he’d win the election ages ago.
But when he then did his ‘Ted Cruz’ bit the game was over. No one is more right wing than them economically, socially and in foreign affairs. Now if he then had done a ‘big betrayal’ of them, using them to get elected while marginalising them when in power that would have been one thing, but as many in the LGBTI community warned (because we study and know the religious right) he has packed his Govt with them. And as bad a Clinton was she was still better than that….. and maybe a close election would have scared her enough into listening and acting on the real economic concerns of so many people.
When he did that, plus when his misogyny came out, he lost voters in droves and I thought he’d (just) fail then. And in fact he scored a minority of the popular vote, when pre that he was well ahead and if had stayed on his original track he’d have won a handsome victory.
So it is going to pretty horrific and a ‘Great Betrayal’ of those working class people that voted for him and a dire threat to many people including women and LGBTI people. The great risk is that as his Govt flounders and fails, then he will turn the racism, misogyny, and LGBTI hate to ’11’ to cover that and tear the country apart.
I’ve noticed this tendency here as well as on other sites, underestimating the ‘religious right’ and their ever growing power and influence (despite the shrinking of their absolute numbers)…and just how bad they really are on every dimension, not just social and human rights issues. But a lot of people are going experience it for themselves now.
Ah the ‘Trump affect’ and all these people now feeling they have permission to shout out the invective they’ve been stifling for years…and showing what they really think and feel.
Peter: ‘safe-space’, ‘play-doh’, ‘safety-pin’, ‘mother’s little losers’, ‘snowflake’……
You do realise that what you are really saying is that basic politeness, empathy and respect for people and their rights is something you hate …. That you feel the great urge to shout out invective to achieve what ..make you feel more like a man? Or is that suppressed ‘bratty little boy’ behaviour, pulling girls hair and hitting (always) smaller kids?
It is not funny, nor does it make you look tough or ‘manly’ … the exact opposite in fact, most definitely doesn’t make you look intelligent. What next, grabbing some (small and alone of course) women’s pussy?
@ Lisa
“You do realise that what you are really saying is that basic politeness, empathy and respect for people and their rights is something you hate …. That you feel the great urge to shout out invective to achieve what ..make you feel more like a man? Or is that suppressed ‘bratty little boy’ behaviour, pulling girls hair and hitting (always) smaller kids?”
No, Lisa, what the rising invective represents is that reasonable people eventually get really aggravated when the folks they are debating prove themselves to be terminally impervious to contrary viewpoints and unable to do any introspection, but rather demonstrate a complete lack of self-awareness, while being relentlessly pedantic and haughty as they endlessly repeat their own talking points and try to flood the conversation with data factoids that do not precisely get to the essence of what is being discussed and what has just been asserted by those who disagree with your self-centric PC views.
At that point, polite conversation becomes less satisfying than open ridicule.
If we can’t enlighten you, then we can at least amuse ourselves by mocking you.
But don’t change what you do. I have a true appreciation of the absurd, and thinking that your tiny percentage of the population should actually tell everybody else how to act is a shining example of absurdity.
Reasonable people do not in any way support Trump or is that too difficult for you fucking morons to understand?
Yes, it is.
Neither realitychecker/Morocco Bama nor Peter are reasonable people but realitychecker’s response to Lisa is a great example of projection and blaming others for his own failures and bad behavior.
@Lisa, Ron,
Notice how, buried in among the usual “characterization” game, that talking about what Trump is actually doing now gets downplayed as mere “data points” that don’t get to some sort of “essence” of blah, blah, blah….too funny.
If ks (who never has and never will have any specific positive thought to advance), Lisa (who is more intelligent than ks but seems unable to see anything outside the rigid frame of her unfortunate but rare sense of genital misplacement), and Ron (who persists in commenting despite having been specifically disinvited from doing so) now represent a united front, then I could not be happier than to find myself being their complete opposite, and I bask in their enmity, because they truly are the enemies of what I hold most dear, which is rational thinking.
Let each reader judge for him/herself.
@reality/Morocco,
I guess when all else fails, continue to attack and play to the crowd. That you are still holding yourself up as a champion of rational thought when you obviously haven’t exhibited it, is well…sad but not surprising.
@ks
You almost turn your denial into an art form but your style is more imitation than original.
RC said he voted for Trump a difficult decision that helped produce the desired result so he is a winner on that level. I couldn’t bring myself to vote and I went to bed that night not knowing the results thinking that the Red Queen would surely be installed. I woke the next morning dreading the news but was pleasantly surprised with the great news that I had won my wish to never have to see the Red Queen in power and I still wake up with a grin.
What happens under the dreaded Trumpocolypse doesn’t worry me much because the Clintons are vanquished and gone forever from the halls of power. I have been pleasantly surprised by the first pre-office victories Trump has managed with killing the TPP and saving a thousand jobs from offshoring or downsizing.
You and your little band of nabobs of negativity probably can’t comprehend what Trump is doing with his cabinet picks, it’s just bad, bad, bad but I’ll bet Soros understands what’s happening especially with the last two picks, Gary Cohn and Rex Tillerson. Trump is doing some very high level head-hunting and he has plucked the head off the Vampire Squid and Multinational Oil. These two MOTU’s will now have a Boss that they serve along with the country not only their old shareholders. They won’t make policy, their job is to carry out the Bosses’ policies. I may be disappointed by the deals that will be offered but you have to get inside operations like GS to stop the offshoring of jobs driven by their demands for corporate profits.
Again with the projection and repetition from you two. You are now engaging in such desperate and bizarre rationalizations “…plucked the head off the Vampire Squid and Multinational Oil…” that the foolishness speaks for itself.
The Trump affect #2, what’s already happening on the ground (to the cheers of many I sadly suspect):
” As I began to head back to my car, a young man approached me with a menacing look on his face. I asked if there was anything I could do for him, and he immediately proceeded to accost me. Shouting offensive language, he spontaneously ran through a gambit of insults. He called me a hippie dyke bitch and several other things that do not merit repeating.
Several of the young man’s friends then rounded the corner of the building and joined the verbal lashing. I feared the altercation would turn physical. They had me surrounded and cornered against a brick wall. Within a minute, 20-30 bystanders passed and did nothing more than stare, or worse, look away. Eventually, another group of young people took notice and intervened. As the angry group dispersed, they shouted, “It’s okay, Trump will take care of your ass!”
Note the common characteristics of all these reports coming out, male attacking a female, his buddies join in to pick on a single woman on her own.. Such heroes eh? All these big ‘men’…
That’s a characteristic of this type of person, hostile ..but cowards, pick on someone seen as smaller or weaker (usually female) with superior numbers.
Note those who walked away …and those heroes that intervened.
Note the prejudice even amongst so called professionals (a report by the same person by the way):
” The next man was looking for his wife. He was casually directed through the patient door to join her as she waited for treatment.
My partner was next in line. Just as the man before her, she inquired about my whereabouts and asked to be directed to my room. She was denied entrance. The medical assistant delegated to intake and triage told my partner that the doctor did not like “that sort of thing,” and she would need to wait in the lobby.”
Of course there are some that would call her a ‘snowflake’ and should have just taken a beating from a bunch of guys without complaining……after all that’s what ‘real men’ do ..beat up women….
@ Lisa
Aren’t you in Australia? How is Trump going to do anything to your ass?
“Note the common characteristics of all these reports coming out, male attacking a female.”
Well, not that it makes it right, but I’m going to guess they targeted you because they did not think you are a female.
In any event, as I have told you previously, I would and repeatedly have stood up for ANYONE who I witnessed being bullied or victimized by criminal behavior, so in my case you are preaching to the choir when you relate such anecdotes, and I wonder why you never seem to be able to incorporate that fact into your rhetoric.
If you were not in Australia, you would have the Second Amendment to help protect you, and would not have to rely on people like me, i.e., people who, unlike you, feel a duty to the overall community that sometimes transcends or even conflicts with consideration of our own personal self-interest.
@ ks
I sometimes wonder what your essential belief system is about.
Trayvon for President, amirite? 🙂
@realitychecker/Morocco Bama,
You don’t wonder any such thing. You’re just deflecting and baiting with bigotry as usual.
No, I’m just mocking and ridiculing your monumental stupidity, as usual. Amusing me is your best and highest use.
Glad to see you’re shacking up with Ron, though. Everybody should have somebody to love.
@ Ultra December 9, 2016
@ Ultra December 9, 2016
No I leave that sort of thing to ineffective people like you.
On the contrary as a conservative active in conservative politics I understand them very well. “Know your enememy” is the same good advice that it always was. A major part of the reason why people like you are so easy to defeat politically is that apart from the fact that you’re intellectually shallow your behaviour and tactics are entirely predictable.
I was waiting on Mark to weigh in first, but since he hasn’t–
Surely Welsh would just see your name and hit “approve”? He knows who his regulars are. Ian still has to clear the moderation queue anyway irrespective of whether your particular post ends up there, so I don’t see how your posting cites could take away more than a few seconds of his time.
Your “concern” for Ian here is transparently disingenuous–frankly this is the sort of feeble attempt at an excuse that a naughty five-year-old would use after getting caught out.
I knew it. YOU HAVE NOTHING. Here is the demand from Mark:
And you responded with another anecdotal case, and vaguely pointed in the direction of the SPLC without even giving any titles or headings. You really don’t have any evidence for an uptick in violence, I’m now positive.
But one last chance–post one link credibly showing a statistically meaningful surge in hate crimes since 8-11-2016.
Not surveys showing that some fraction of people in a given profession think that there has been a such a surge.
Not more anecdotes or hearsay.
Actual documentation of an increase in reported cases.
Post it now.
Or else SHUT UP!
markfromireland: “Know your enememy” (sic) is the same good advice that it always was. A major part of the reason why people like you are so easy to defeat politically is that apart from the fact that you’re intellectually shallow your behaviour and tactics are entirely predictable.”
We know the same about conservative ones too….. and when people like the Democrat elites (who are really centre or even centre right conservatives) are got out of the way, they are quite easy to beat.
The reason is simple, conservatives believe in an economic and social hierarchy with systemic injustice, from the top (white, male, heterosexual … hmm… often claiming to be ‘christian’ in the west) to the bottom (pick just about everyone else). They believe in using the full force of Govt violence and economic sanctions to maintain that (but they don’t want to pay for it).
At its heart it is a belief that those at the top are ‘morally superior’ (even when they endlessly prove otherwise) and those further down are ‘morally inferior’. That they ‘choose’ that and thus it is their fault for what happens to them.
Those at the top, being ‘real humans’ have to be rewarded and given incentives to do things, those at the bottom are just ‘beasts’ who have to be kicked hard to do things. So they are long on severe punishment of those lower down for even the smallest infraction and long on tolerance, forgiveness and rewarding those at the top (no matter what they do).
So hence for a conservative it is perfectly logical to give tax cuts to the wealthy (as they deserve it by being better) and cut benefits or raise taxes for those on the bottom (because they deserve that). Overall they support (and love) hierarchies, so (taking an example from Australia) they believe that bullying at school of those weaker or part of a minority is actually a ‘good thing’ because it helps maintain the ‘social hierarchy’.
To say that they are racist, misogynist, homophobic and transphobic is a redundancy.
If they are (which is common) homosocial, (typical of those from elite schools, armed forces etc), they actually hate women seeing them as just necessary wombs and things to be used for sex.
At the most extreme they believe in a strict gender apartheid and complete control of women’s bodies and sexuality.
There are strong elements of (largely because of their normally abusive upbringing) sociopathy amongst them, with low empathy and often see others lower down as ‘non persons’ little better (or worse) than animals.
They have some interesting contradictions, they are anti-sex (except the sex they have of course), very homophobic (even those many amongst them who are, closeted, gay themselves) but amazingly tolerant of child sex abuse and, of course, rape of women….except when it is an elite women that is attacked by a lower down man, then they get all angry, not about the rape but the breaking of class or race boundaries and ‘their property’ being abused.
While against contraception and abortion, they treat children (even their own) terribly. Physical child abuse is seen as ‘normal’ and acceptable to them.
Patriotism to them is a sham for the proles, they will always sell out their own countries as long as they and their group does well.
Easy to beat, yep, because they are such horrible people. By their own efforts a ‘grand coalition’ of left and progressive groups just took down the LGBTI (etc) hating Gov McCory in North Carolina… even as Trump got elected. because the dead (and nearly as conservative) hand of the Dem elites weren’t involved.
No response from Che. I’m done with this thread